Hi Mechans,
I used push pull tube amps for 15 years until the switch to SET amplifiers
over four years ago. IMO SET amps are much simpler in design and use
(fewer tubes and parts) circuits are quite minimalistic. I enjoyed my PP
amplifiers but in my case the SETis just better sounding, more musically -
emotionally involving and natural in presentation. A profound upward step
for me. The key is having an "appropriate speaker", if you do, the
resulting music reproduction is a sheer joy. I'd spend a bit more if
necessary to ensure the output transformer is of good quality( mandatory
for good SET performance).
Jazzman463,
If your name is representative of music taste I think you'll love what SET
amplifiers can achieve. Generally speaking the DHT type tubes of good
quality ( 300b, 2A3, 45, etc) last for many hours in circuits that don't stress
them.
Charles,
|
Hi Larryi,
Knowing that you own an Audio Note Kageki, that OTL must be quite expensive if it causes you to pause. Is this OTL amplifier a bespoke-purely custom component?
Charles, |
Atmasphere,
I would naturally expect you to take that position or why build OTL
amplifiers for all these years. Either could be the ideal choice depending on
various factors. Having heard both amplifier types I preferred SET, someone
else could certainly chose differently. The builder(Israel Blume) of my SET
could come here and make a very compelling case for SET just as you
passionately do for your OTL topology in many threads over the years. I
appreciate both of you talented and committed gentlemen. Variety is truly
the spice of life.
Charles, |
The OP has stated an interest in a new audio experience and moving towards SET not away. |
Bombaywalla,
You raise good points and I agree there are multiple roads to audio satisfaction. The OP specifically mentioned SET, a price range for these amps and even listed a particular SET amplifier he's considering(Dared MP 2A3c). So it appears he has given some degree of thought into this. SET have some limitations as do "every" other type of amplifier.
Jazzman463 what do you think?
Charles, |
Thanks very much Larryi, I can appreciate your admiration for these obviously one of a kind masterpiece amplifiers. This amplifier must weigh the proverbial ton! Now I understand the prohibitive cost.
Charles, |
Hi Sal,
Your listing of the multiple variables involved are true and no one could
argue against that point. But here's the deal, the OP posted this thread
stating a curiosity and interest in SET amplifiers . He's seeking feedback
before making a decision. Presumably he has little or no experience with
SET amps. He has to begin his quest somewhere, so I'd think there's some
appreciation for a dialog about these types of amplifiers and people's
experience with them. Isn't that reasonable? I did the same thing over4
years ago when I developed an interest in the unkown(to me) niche of SET
amplifiers and experienced members here were extremely helpful. I'm
attempting to do the same for Jazz463. Could he be happy with non SET
amps? Of course he could. I just happen to find the SET to be very special
when executed well.
Charles, |
When discussing a SET amp I'm speaking of those that are well designed, built and implemented, this along with a well chosen speaker will allow enjoyment of all genres of music.SET is capable of far more than only small scale and vocal (though it does these very well). Lesser amplifiers of any topology(not just SET) will lack this ability. In the stated price range I'd agree there are more choices among PP amplifiers. Good quality SETs don't come cheap but can be found for reasonable cost. Any amplifier type has 'some' degree of intrinsic compromise along the performance spectrum. |
Hi Tubegroover,
Your overall assessment of SET amplifiers is spot on, there is a hierarchy that exists. Although SETs have very simple circuits and generally fewer parts, what usually seperates them is the output transformer and power supply quality and they aren't cheap. A budget SET will have some inevitable limitations. The OP mentions a small listening room and has an easy to drive speaker. For 1500.00 particularly if he considers an used amp I think there are some SET options that are worthwhile. I'll provide some viable choices later today (Have go to the airport now). Tubegroover there are for certain good PP amps in this range that would serve the OP well.
Charles, |
Hi Tubegroover,
Agee,It comes down to preferences as my experiences differ from yours and all considered it's SET rather than the OTLs I've heard. Certainty many listeners will find genuine satisfaction with either, that's for sure. The sheer realism quality of SET is the most compelling/convincing I've heard so far.
It does seem the OP has disappeared.
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
I believe that the Coincident Dynamo would be an exceptional match with your new speakers. This amplifier certainly has a strong family pedigree. Best of sucess with this bedroom system.
Charles, |
Tubegroover,
It could just be the case that OTLs suit your desires better and I could
understand that easily. My exposure has been Atma-Sphere and Berning,
they both do 'many' things well and their reputation and loyalty have been
earned. This will obviously be a personal perspective but the better quality
versions of SETs I've heard (primarily 300b and 845) win out with superior
tone,timbre-harmonic overtones and profound tactile pressence. They
sound closer to what I consistently heard at live events, full body, color,
weight and vibrancy. For me the OTLs present a leaner, scaled down
interpretation that some will say is more accurate, not to me. When that
natural tonal body and color saturation is missing, so is the life, soul and
emotional connection. I must have this realistic fullness otherwise the
effective result is merely hifi. I also find SETs to be utterly transparent
and maintaining musical purity. It goes without saying that there are those
who'd disagree with my impression and that makes sense and would be
expected. Is it 2nd order harmonics I'm responding to? Could be but it
sounds closer to live
instruments and voice and that's all I want , as much organic realism as is
possible. There are multiple choices in amplifiers and each type will have
its advocates. The key to sonic happiness is knowing what is most
satisfying and involving for you and going for it.
Charles, |
Tubegroover,
SETs I've heard that sound very natural and honest without embellishment
are the following. Absolare, Coincident, Wavelength, Dehavilland and
Allnic. By reputation Audion amplifiers , Fi Audio and some Yamamto amps
meets this standard and I'm sure there are more. To be fair within the niche
of SET there's much variety of sound and presentation. Simply swapping
either output, driver, input tubes or changing capacitors can produce very
noticeable differences. I've heard Viva sound fantastic with certain
speakers.
Of course my idea of natural and realistic could be interpreted as too rich
and warmly colored to you and conversely my too lean and thin is
may be your "just right".
I get exceptional resolution, articulation, separation and clarity with my SET
so I don't suffer the short comings you've mentioned. You may not find a
SET that satisfies your ears as much as your OTL does. So many factors
shape our preferences. Berning could simply be the ideal choice for you
and anything else will fall short of your needs. We both are very happy with
our different types of amplifiers.
Charles, |
Bombywalla,
Yes the OP has apparently moved on. However I've enjoyed the contributions from you, Larryi, Tubegroover and all the others who've contributed interesting posts.
Goldeneraguy, I imagine your Dehavilland 845 SET and Horning speaker combo sounds fabulous!
Charles, |
Hi Brownsfan,
I asked about those tubes on your system thread earlier today LOL.
Israel is quite proud of the transformer quality in these very affordable Dynamo amps (which are usually the weak point of inexpensive SETs). |
Goldeneraguy,
I belive the vast majority posting here acknowledge the concept of room interactions and entire system effect. Your Horning is one of a few speakers I'd really be curious to hear (also Phy driver based speakers) with the Frankenstein amplifier. I think you'd enjoy speaking with Israel Blume.
Charles, |
Tubegroover,
Clio09 makes a good point, it really depends on your speaker's ease of drive (not just the sensitivity rating) room, music genre and listening levels.
His result with a 10 watt amp is similar to mine with an 8 watt amp.
I listen to predominantly jazz and big band and sound envelops my room (14×25×8 feet). When I do play classical, usually small-moderate scale it is really compelling and engrossing . Large scale orchestral music is quite good with my 94 db 14 ohm speakers. I won't claim that this is the ultimate set up for large scale orchestra but my point is it does provide a satisfying musical experience. The presentation is very resolved, delineated and lively emotionally.
I'd say the Coincident, Wavelength 300b (several versions available) and Clio09's amp would be worth a listen. Tubegroover, a 845 SET amp may be ideal if your music is mostly larger scale classical fare and high sound volume.
Charles, . |
Goldeneraguy,
Thanks for the invitation to hear your system. At RMAF 2011 I heard the Tron electronics driving a horn speaker in the High Water Audio room and it was one the very best rooms I heard there. |
Larryi,
I believe that the Horning is successful using the Lowther as a wide band
midrange driver rather than stretching it to the very upper frequencies as a
"full range" driver (they also wisely removed the whizzer cone).
Larry I truly believe that high impedance speaker loads are absolutely
advantageous for SET amps and lower power tube amps in general.
It often seems as though my amplifier is just coasting driving my 14 ohm
speakers. I definitely can relate to your example of the Rogers 3/5A
characteristics with low powered tube amplifiers.
Charles, |
Tubegroover,
The prototype 845 Berning sounds potentially special when you consider the merits of the builder. There are folks on audiogon with more knowledge about 845 SET amplifiers than me. One in particular is 213 cobra (Phil) he has extensive experience with both SET and OTL and could provide a well informed perspective. Germanboxers is another who has much personal experience with these two amplifier types. Both of them as far as I know listen to a wide range of music and find no limitations with their 845 SETs.I'm more familiar with the 300b SETs and I have no music genre restrictions. Nothing falls apart, becomes congealed, confused or sloppy-muddy.
But to be fair not all SETs are equal and 'some' will behave as you describe and much is speaker dependant as has been pointed out several times here. If the Berning represents the ideal sound you seek then no SET will match that. Conversely the Berning isn't going to sound like the better implemented SETs, so it becomes what a re you looking for?
Charles, |
Jazzman463,
With your smaller room and criteria you listed I think the Coincident Dynamo SET would be a very good solution and it fits your price range. |
Jazz,
1)The Raysonic is a parallel SET 18 watts per channel and use three el34 per channel and was favorably reviewed by 6 Moons.
2)The Coincident is 8 watt SET using the el34 (very simple).
3)The Dared uses a 2A3 tube which is a pure DHT (I'm favorably bias toward DHTs).
I'm confident that the Coincident has very good transformers/parts and has a stellar company reputation-track record.
I know little about Dared but if they utilize good transformers it could be a fine choice with its DHT output tube.
I wish you a happy thanksgiving as well.
Charles, |
