Seriously considering tube preamp…opinions?

Lots to research! Thanks so much. I'll update when I can. No one's saying anything negative about PL. I assume you don't think they're overpriced. I'd like to go with a little guy... possibly... so many options!

@markusthenaimnut or others — I've heard Kevin Deal say "point to point wiring" so often, I'm finding myself looking for it myself. But why is it important?

Perhaps a more general way of asking this question is —

What are the 3 or so really important build factors in a tube amp (preamp if we must narrow it down) that indicate a genuinely quality build?

I had a busy day yesterday and am catching up, following out leads in posts and thinking about it all.
While I cannot listen to many of the brands/makers being suggested, it's certainly interesting to survey the language makers use — sometimes it's tech jargon (legit and fluffy), sometimes it's a heartfelt origin story. Often, it's hyperbolic metaphor — I just read that one amp is especially focused on delivering "euphoria"! Well, sure — just throw in some "manna" and a "happy ending" and you've got my $2k!
At this point, I definitely need to just listen to what is around me here in Denver. If I decide I like tubes, it would be tricky to go for something I have not heard over what I have heard — but as many point out here, the price point and quality might be worth that adventure. More to come.

@moofoo Thanks for your review -- and others about DeHavilland. Brand new, they seem to be out of my budget by a little. I want to mention that this sentence resonated: "If you have a problem, questions, etc. with your gear, there is nothing like speaking directly with the person who designed, built, wrote the manual for, and shipped it!" Indeed. And I do see that some other mfrs recommended here are also responsive. I would add -- and this may seem very irrelevant to many -- that a woman designer and owner in this industry is an interesting plus, and perhaps a good reason to support. If my daughter were to get into audio, it’d be nice for there to be some role models out there...

@lalitk Good point. I live in Denver, so it's not a stretch to wait for RMAF. Of course, "the waiting is the hardest part." (RIP Tom Petty).
@moofoo I just took a second look at her website; it seems like the lowest price preamp is $2495 — without a remote and possibly without tubes (that wasn't clear). I have an inclination to buy new from manufacturers rather than scour used sites, not only to reduce the risk of buying a lemon, but also to support the maker. (I'm not rolling in dough, but I think people need to be paid for excellent work. Then again, if they're too pricy…). So, it may be that her preamps are out of my league, given that I also need to get a power amp.
@richopp I'll look at Audio Research. The suggestion to not "mess around" makes sense — of course, much of the testimony above is advising ways to avoid that with other manufacturers! Oy, what a first world problem! Thanks though for your two cents. I'll look into AR.

@richopp Audio Research looks amazing. I'm not sure how I fit that into the budget I outlined. Good to dream, I suppose.

@milpai Thanks for the note about the Rhumba 1.3. It’s $4k, as a preamp. I was looking to keep preamp & amp to $3k. I imagine at $4k, there are a lot of options, but this is effectively beyond my budget.

@bstatmeister Schiit is the option that is lurking in the background, always. I appreciate your note about the difference btw their amps, as there is some fluidity about which speakers I wind up with.

@richdirector — thanks for those suggestions. I don't plan on playing vinyl, but I'll take a look.
@4425 thanks — I will avoid boat anchors. By "unknown brand" I assume you mean "not well known" or "not artisanal" (to borrow a foodie term).

Someone earlier made a comment about amps which would be hard to sell later -- becoming, in essence, expensive doorstops. It raises the question as to what the downside is of getting something relatively boutique-like. I realize that the quality will be there, but the exit door may be blocked if my tastes or needs change down the road. This element may not move people, but I do wonder which of the makers celebrated in these posts might wind up with that problem.

@whitestix The Chardonnay sounds tempting. It’s $2500 or $2000 before $200 shipping. If my budget is $3000 for both pre and power that leaves me at most $800 for a power amp. I guess that could be done. Would you spend in that ratio on a pre/power amp if it was you?

@tvad I hear you. I’ll look at those makers, too. Thanks.

@bigkidz Nice to hear of your experiences. Given the high praise lavished on the deHavilland, it’s interesting that you found so much in it that benefitted from your upgrades. It’s an expensive piece of gear, but I guess everything can use some makeup.

Listening report: GOLD SOUND 2+ hours. Wonderful conversations with Ron Gold the owner, who educated me a lot. This is a great store. (Denver area). I auditioned Prima Luna EVO 400 ($5k) with a CD player and Spendor A4 ($3.5k) speakers. This was my first time listening to a tube amp for an extended period. I then auditioned Parasound P6 and A23+ separates. I did not have the chance to do a separate tube preamp with a solid state power amp. I found the bass in the PL setup to be rather muddy and lacking in articulation. It reached down deep enough, but there were moments of bass-chaos to my ears, too. The highs also sounded rolled off and there was a distinct lack of "crack" on drum hits. Vocals were luscious and the sound stage was delightful. All those deficits were repaired by the Parasound, the sound stage was still great, and while there wasn’t the same soft nuance in the vocals, there were fine. The highs were back.

All in all, I know something now — at least about these two pieces of gear — viz., that all tubes are not fitting my listening expectations. I do suspect a lot of this is because the first time we try something new, we judge based on old expectations rather than on the new benefits. Indeed, I imagine I was *blind* to a lot of the new benefits. I was trying to keep a very open mind about this, too — I didn’t go in expecting that the tubes would do what the solid state had always done. Still, it didn’t provide what I wanted in the kind of music I played — jazz, rock, classical.

Next step would be to continue the idea that a tube/solid state mix is worth a listen.

I do not care for Elac. Nor Spendor that much. The owner is down on Dyns (notoriously difficult to drive), but I still want to hear them again. Waiting on my Salk Wow1’s.

Thanks @naimfan That drive to Ft. Collins would be more fun knowing there’s an audio store at the end of the line!

And I’ll keep in mind the used approach, for sure. Without auditioning things, it’s a bit of leap, but I see there’s high confidence in these suggestions. I do worry about buying something on eBay for $1000 or more because if it doesn't work, what do I do?

FYI, I wrote to Kara at deHavilland. She said she was taking a sabbatical from making audio and that I should look for her Ultraverve used, possibly to pair used Conrad Johnson MF 2500. FWIW.

Great point. I know there are used Parasounds at this dealer. P5 and A23. Not sure how outdated they are but they’d save me 1/3rd of the cost, or about 1100.00. If I went that way. 

Thanks for chiming in, Don. I was looking for things for sale, and only see 1 unit, here: http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/for%20sale.html

Perhaps there's another website or page I'm missing?

Thanks, for that ref. Perhaps I need to go above my $3k limit... boy, how these things take off. But if it's not a boat anchor...

Thanks, @wig.

@decooney Thanks for paying attention to my question. Some answers to yours:

DEALER VISITS: Yes, I’m sharing the specs of my speakers with dealers I visit. So far, I’ve just visited one regarding amplifiers — there, the suggested purchase was Parasound or Prima Luna, because that’s what they carry. The Parasound was nice, but I didn’t like the all-tube PL. I’m not settled yet about tubes because I’ve not heard a hybrid set up. I am trying to stay within $3k for both. Other amps to try with dealers also include Black Ice, Atoll, and Hegel. I can easily get PS Audio stuff mailed to me for a free trial. Same with Schiit. Well, you know about direct sellers, so I’ll stop there.

SUB. Yes. I’ve already purchased a Rel 328 sub to go with any speaker I get. I assume I’ll keep the Salks, but if not, the Rel was a good deal and it can do other jobs if needed.

SETTLED ON AMP. I have not settled on solid state amp — I’ve not settled on anything at all. My plan is to (a) get several speakers first and compare them with the gear I have (which should be sufficient for that purpose) and then (b) make amp comparisons with the selected speaker as the (newly) fixed variable. After that, I’ll (c) do some DAC comparisons (or just freakin’ buy something I can afford). Then, if I’ve become the insane audiophile I think I’m becoming, I’ll subscribe to Exhorbitant Cable Monthly and start that process. ;-)

About the amp, I started another thread about low-sensitivity speakers to see why I should bend over backwards to get an amp for these little speakers. If I change my mind about speakers, that will free me up to re-visit some of the suggestions on this thread that weren't quite aligned with the parameters of my question.

SALK. I have asked Jim Salk via email. Here was the good answer I got from Salk: "I would look for a minimum of about 100 watts for solid state and 30 watts for a tube amp (the more the better in both cases). The reason is that the way these amps clip is different. The solid state amp will be linear until it reaches its maximum output and then clip, becoming overly bright and edgy. As you increase the gain (volume) with a tube amp, it is linear to a point near its maximum output. As you increase it further, it acts somewhat like a compressor and simply limits the maximum output. So it is “soft” clipping as opposed to “hard” clipping. For that reason, you can get by with less wattage with tube amps. People who love tube amps love the liquid-smooth midrange they provide. But they don’t have quite as tight a grip on the bass. If you want tighter bass, then solid state becomes more attractive. The bottom line, then, becomes “what is more important to you...liquid smooth performance or tight bass performance.” Other than that, as long as the basic amp design is good, wattage becomes the most important (since amps are very accurate compared to speakers)."

Finally, Quicksilver comes up often. I appreciate hearing that you also like it. I’m making a note. (I have a huge chart.)

Thanks again for your post.

Thanks all. These are good suggestions.
@scothurwitz  The Don Sachs suggestion does keep coming up. (Also: Quicksilver, Ultraverve, Had)
@dodgealum I cannot see a price on the Herron VTSP-3A page.

That’s great, @oddiofyl . I will go look for those -- very simple unit. I suppose that keeps costs low and noise out. (Was looking at Parasound and what a difference in the feature set. I suppose one just goes a different direction with these sort of things.) Will look for the CJ, too.

I suppose QS can advise about a solid state amp, too. I think that's the combo I'd want.

One additional question occurs -- if down the road, the QS doesn’t seem right for my evolving system, how’s are they to re-sell? Do people want them or are they niche/hard to sell?

@dodgealum  Good to consider. I expect to talk myself into more extravagant purchases down the road, but for now, my intended listening space (and the amount of time I have to listen) are modest. I'm trying to  take it slow.

@decooney  I'll go look for it, and thank you. Everyone's said "get your speakers first" so perhaps the process needs to be done slowly. I do like the tight, punch, crispness of solid state, only I am not sure if I might not want it all the way. 

I was looking hard at the Vincent 237, but that was about $1k less. This is very, very tempting. I need to read reviews, get feedback. I'd certainly be very proud to show it off. 

Thanks -- both of those are really appealing.

Interesting about the Schiit. I was very interested in them, and am cooling off a bit. I’ve now read a number of comparisons btw, for example, their DAC and other DAC’s (eg Denafrips), their tube and other tube pres, their power and other power. Their prices are amazing, but once one starts to climb north of 2k, it starts to change the equation, it seems. Having never owned anything better than an Adcom, I’m only summarizing what I’ve read. I’ll look at that link you mention. It sounds like it might be hard to sell, down the road, but the price is quite low.

@atmasphere One parameter is budget. Is this Atma or Ear in the neighborhood of $3k?

@last_lemming  I'll look at decware but very low wattage. I am not sure about how that would pair.
@naimfan  Thanks for those additional suggestions.

I've been glad to collect and hear rationales for anything folks mentioned, especially if they worked somewhere w/in the price parameters I mentioned. I've learned a lot.

But honestly, I realize that I will *not* buy something I cannot audition on a trial basis —either in a store or on a demo. I want to hear things in combination, preferably with my speakers and, ideally, in my home.

From all the research I've done and considering my location (Denver area), the tube list gets shorter:

So, what I can actually audition in stores or via mail, these are the choices:

Schiit
Quicksilver
Black Ice/Jolida
McIntosh (a bit pricy but the MA252 is doable)
Prima Luna
Rogue
Octave (probably too expensive)

If I missed a brand that does in home trial, please correct me.

This probably kills all interest in the topic, but just want to let you know how things are ending up for me!

@tvad  I'm so grateful to learn from your experience. I do not want to buy and sell, over and over. I'm not against changes but there are other things besides audio I want to pursue, if I may say that out loud.
@decooney has been making the same point about all tubes — I think the message is sinking into my head.

I've had exactly 1 experience with tubes — the all-tube Prima Luna EVO 400, which I didn't like. Sloppy bass, lack of tightness and crisp highs. And I do realize that was likely a one-off for various reasons. If I could have another session which had the virtues of tubes (a variety of virtues, I'm not trying to oversimplify) but which contained a bit more of the crisp, tight, control of solid state, I'd probably be ready to go all tube right now. But I have to hear it.

I don't think of your comment as a sidebar; you see that I'm after what you finally accomplished, and you're warning me off what might be a potential dead-end. That's appreciated.

And RMAF may be worth waiting for, final decision-wise. I'll probably gain years of experiential knowledge from that event.

It's good to have aspirations! I have a very detailed chart which I've built from these suggestions; some of these will be marked out as things for down the road. This is one. @decooney was saying a lot of great things about Pass, too. Thank you!

Will do!

Thanks, Markus. I started reading that white paper and it's great. Aimed toward people with electrostatic gear, but I see the principles are general and that will be very useful. Appreciate that.

Glad to hear your view on tube preamps. I've been whipsawed back and forth on this, with some agreeing and others saying, in effect, "If it ain't tubes all the way through, you won't get the effect you're really seeking." I honestly need to listen to hear the proof, but until then, I'm not clear.

I agree about the small builder thought. Quicksilver is such a builder and that's who I'm auditioning tomorrow. Through a dealer, yes, but not a big company.

And you're right about my position not being unique; it may be like a lot of other things we buy — we take a chance. It's just that the money involved is in the 4 figures at least and may be hard to recoup or re-sell. But as many pointed out, it can be hard to find that Ultraverve or whatever. People know them and want them. And tube rolling does a lot (so I hear).

Thanks for taking the time to check back in an add to the advice. I added your comments to some notes I'm keeping.

@mesch  Thanks -- and yes, please keep me posted. This might be a good way to go. I'm not buying today -- I don't even have my final speaker choice decided. This is pre-research (and fun). It's a shame I can only try one tube type today in my price range, but that's going to tell me something. I'm also curious to try solid-state Atoll -- symmetrical power outs -- because they seem a good, smaller company but there are not many reviews for the US market.

@tvad  I got the Harley book yesterday, and already created a "cheat sheet" to take with me during my auditioning today, along with a range of music. Amp power, character, difference to look for between tubes/solid state … I'm ready!

@mesch Why non-remote? Is the sound better without it or is the price difference not worth it?

OP, here.

LISTENING UPDATE: With an initial budget seeking $3k or less, I auditioned:

* Quicksilver Integrated Amp
against
* Atoll separates (MA100, 60w amp & Atoll HD 120 preamp)

Source: Atoll CD player
DAC was in CD player.
Speakers were Dynaudio Evoke 10’s.

I was hoping that they would set me up with more powerful Atoll (the 100 watt integrated) but they didn’t. So, I spent a lot of time comparing various types of music between the QS Integrated and the Atoll 60 watt. I also asked that a setup be done with QS preamp and an Atoll (or whatever) power amp, but that did not happen.

Quick reflections were that the QS integrated was phenomenally good — rich, luscious, great control over bass and lovely soundstage. However, the volume had to be turned a fair way up and my impression is that the amp was reaching close to its limit.

The Atoll was really good up to a point, but then, especially in the highs, it became almost shrill. I’ve been reading that a big sign that an amp is having a challenge is when the highs get shrill and the soundstage collapses. That definitely happened with the Atoll/ Dyns at higher volumes. I wish they had set me up with a bigger amp.

This is where the listening day ended. I had a couple of exchanges with the sales guy that left me a bit perplexed.

First, when I said I was concerned that the QS might not have quite enough power, he said I could go QS Preamp plus QS monoblocks but that was it. He suggested going to a Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated ($3k) instead. (I'm not dead-set against the monoblocks, but I'm setting up a fairly compact space as was hoping not to sprawl out so many components.)

Second, when I said that I was still interested in trying a tube pre/solid state combo, he seemed to deflect from that idea. “Then you’re getting into matching them and you’ve got additional cables involved. You really make the most of the combo when you get an integrated or at least separates from the same company.”

So, not only did we NOT try any kind of hybrid today (as I had requested) but he also made it seem as if I was getting into complicated and too-deep waters by trying to mix and match tube amp and preamp. My sense from what I’ve read on the blogs and elsewhere indicates that this is not so difficult. I sense he was trying to “steer me” toward an easy, all-in-one solution, even if it was no longer QS, which I definitely liked a lot.

Any thoughts about my experience and what the sales guy was saying and/or about the Rogue Cronus Magnum appreciated.

Thanks, all, for your reflections. From the get-go, I have not felt a lot of help from this person (nice enough, but young, late 20s or 30s); there’s a kind of impatience with the sales process that makes me feel that I’m over-staying my welcome. It’s a vibe I got. Emails, also, didn’t fully answer my questions — and I did not ask that many. Kept steering me toward what was in stock. Never mentioned other products in the line they actually carry.

@decooney Thanks for the explanation about the non-remote QS. Noted for future reference. Also, they DO have the Quicksilver Mid Mono Amp. Maybe I just suck it up and get QS separates? That would work with any speakers, right?

@tvad After finding myself really psyched about the tube experience, I’m now concerned that you are outlining a real, forced dilemma: give up the speakers or give up the tubes. Or at least give up all-tubes. Some tubes is still possible, if the match is right. Pass labs is beyond my price range and it almost seems silly to outmatch the speakers by so much, no?

Ok, so at this point, it is seeming all-tube QS separates or solid state or still investigating a pair up.

I wish this dealer was a bit better — or at least the salesperson. It’s hard to push away from someone who’s is working with you in the store, but I suppose I could reach out to the owner? Or, as Tvad said, just move on to another dealer or distributor for the QS stuff. (Any recommendations on QS dealers?)

@Tvad, you make an excellent point. And I will definitely think hard about the Pass Labs integrated amplifier. The hard question would be if I’m going tubes or not.

That said, you were making a larger point about investing for the longer term. By rejecting the QS integrated at 20 wpc as under-powered (which I heard yesterday and really enjoyed) I think I’m already starting to enact your advice, but in a cautious piecemeal way. You’re saying, "don’t go half-ass" on what is a sound trajectory — toward quality gear.

My thinking against such a high dollar purchase was that I need to live with solid state or tubes or hybrid for a while before knowing what I really want. Paying $6k or whatever, now, much now makes the experiment feel riskier than paying $3k. I guess it all gets re-sold at some point, though, so best not to dwell on the purchase price.

@decooney Good to know. The match I'll need advice on, if I go this way. You're tempted by the Pass? Wouldn't that be abandoning tubes? Hmmm. Probably should stick with one god if you're a monotheist.

@decooney ey
Re: Key Question (speakers): "Are you 100% settled on Salk Wow1s"
Answer: They are ordered. Not auditioned yet and returnable. I'll have to eat the shipping. A lot of research went into picking them, so I'm really inclined to give them a charitable listen.

Regarding the QS Mono 60s (vs Mid Monos) — Yes. I would do that. I just agreed with Tvad that he's right about not skimping now and paying later. So I'm reaching into the college fund (kidding) and altering my budget. As you point out, this is not just doing something that is good for the speakers, but it is opening the door to change.

As for thinking amortized over initial cost — I'm there with you. I can accept this as an argument. My price limit just got more flexible but it's based on good reasons provided here and not on sales pitches or vanity/luxury bs from a dealer. That's a critical factor for me.

@tvad Re: "Auditioning amplification prior to settling on speakers is an audio merry go around."
Answer: Yes, you're right, and I see that it's reaching a terminus. But I'm not that up in the air about speakers — I know I like the Dyns and I suspect I'll like the Salks. But I do need to give it a rest and let the (speaker chips) fall where they may. That said, once I do pick a speaker — high or low sensitivity — the research folks have helped me compile and the listening I've done is still valueable. But you're right if you're saying that I'm at the point of diminishing returns! Time for me to just "cool it."

@tvad  I asked Jim that question in early January, when I was buying the speakers. He gave this answer, which I have used to set some basic, minimum standards: "I would look for a minimum of about 100 watts for solid state and 30 watts for a tube amp (the more the better in both cases). The reason is that the way these amps clip is different. The solid state amp will be linear until it reaches its maximum output and then clip, becoming overly bright and edgy. As you increase the gain (volume) with a tube amp, it is linear to a point near its maximum output. As you increase it further, it acts somewhat like a compressor and simply limits the maximum output. So it is “soft” clipping as opposed to “hard” clipping. For that reason, you can get by with less wattage with tube amps. People who love tube amps love the liquid-smooth midrange they provide. But they don’t have quite as tight a grip on the bass. If you want tighter bass, then solid state becomes more attractive. The bottom line, then, becomes “what is more important to you...liquid smooth performance or tight bass performance.” Other than that, as long as the basic amp design is good, wattage becomes the most important (since amps are very accurate compared to speakers)."

Regarding the audition of the speakers, I have Adcom separates at the moment. Jim thought they'd be adequate to try out the speakers. There's a problem of too many variables, here — I cannot choose an amp until I have settle the variable of the speakers, but I cannot choose which speakers while also changing amps. So, I'm going to keep the amp constant — my present one, which I know pretty well — and then pay attention to how Salk speakers sound as compared with Dyns, etc.

Thanks, Scott. Appreciate hearing your experience.

@decooney Yes, I think that's right and it aligns with what Jim Salk said about his speakers. 30w min. on tubes. Noting all you said about buying "up." And I've written to Reno HiFi to know their views and stock in case going solid state was important.

But the INT60 is 60 watts, right? And Jim Salk said 100 watts minimum, right? I suspect the answer for this Pass Labs stuff is going to be in the "not all watts are the same" category — right? So a 60w Pass Labs solid state should be plenty for these Salks. Have I suspected corrected that this is the answer to that question?

While going integrated or matching from the same brand seems the safe route, and one I will probably take, there are numerous experienced folks here who have made a good argument that it can be done. That's why I feel it might be a good way to go.

@gotvinyl Thanks, I will go check them out.

That’s a lot of money for an illusion. Just joking! ;-)

@tvad Sounds like a amp worth selling a kidney for. Then again...Reno Hifi, right?

@tvad @decooney and all,
It's likely this thread is almost exhausted.
I'll just pose one final additional question.
* Assume, for the sake of argument, that you've convinced me to consider high quality solid state as an alternative to tubes. (This is a thought experiment.)
* Assume, also, that you've made me very curious about the Pass Labs INT-60 amp.
* Assume that I've looked into them and find $9000 too much for me, but that you've nudged me up to $6500, tops, for amplification.

QUESTION: Who do you think would be nearly competing, in solid state, with Pass Labs with this maximum price point (for new)?

I'm looking for a short list of makers you consider to be "nearly Pass labs" topping out around $6500, new.

When I look, I see things such as:

First Watt
Bryston
Hegel
Sugden
and many others.

So, in the upper tier, nearly in the same breath as Pass Labs but at a max $6.5k pricepoint, who makes your super short list?

@tvad I understand about Reno and I do *hear* you on that, and on First Watt and home additions; I’m trying to tease out what folks think are in at least a neighboring zone, quality wise.

@mesch Thanks for the great summation. I think I’m going to print that out and post it. Seriously. Cogent and instructive. I think I have done 1-4, though I have not done "treatments." I’m working on 5 in a "pre-thinking" way because choice of speakers (3) is still TBD. I am considering digital sources only.

@decooney You’ve got the path right about how we got here. I’m still leaning very much toward tubes, but the discussion of solid state lead to comments about how *good* solid state can sound and how well they can produce a musical result with low-sensitivity speakers. So, I’m working on 1 and 2; that’s why budget (3) is getting shoved around a bit — largely via comments about what it takes for really good solid state. I was pretty dogmatic (in earlier replies) to folks suggesting things way above my $3k pricepoint. But then folks (like you) weighed in about solid state, Pass Labs, etc. and it was clear that if I didn't budge my budget upwards, even used would be well beyond me. The Reno site has nothing at the 3k price point, even used, in power.

Thanks for your comments. Back to speakers.

@mesch Interested in the Aric. I had a nice email exchange with him. Curious how things shake out for  you.

Thanks, @atmasphere . I went to your website and took a look. Difficulty was that of the 9 dealers you list, none list prices for almost anything. (I think I found 1 dealer listing 1 price.) This makes it very hard to know what's in the realm of possibility for me. I realize that dealers want to keep things on the down low to work deals with customers, etc., but I'm completely in the dark about what your stuff costs.

Almarg, thanks for the post. Informative as always. Matching tips are so appreciated.

It also reminds me of why I posted (in another thread) asking about the value of the crossover control on the Parasound — the ability to delimit the frequencies assigned to the speakers (and assigned to the sub, instead) was something Salk himself thought could work well with his little 84 db speakers. He didn't say it was necessary, but he accepted it as a way of doing things.

It may well be I wind up doing some speaker shootouts which result in a higher efficiency speaker. For now, I clicked with the Dyns and I expect to give the Salks a real chance. Everything I read about them was phenomenal. But there are other fish in the ocean. A higher efficiency speaker would really open things up, but for the moment, I cannot accept that as a directive given that there’s good evidence on the side of the speakers on my shortlist.