Please do, but wait at least a week. Our TT is down for a bearing upgrade. At the moment we're listening to CD's and watching movies. :-(
Schroeder model 2 or Morch DP6?
Has anyone out there listened to both of these tonearms? Or even better, have you listened to them in the same system? Dougdeacon, if you are out there, I am betting you have heard them both in your "shootout". I am interested in the sonic differences in the 2 arms. I know the Schroeder 2 sells for about $2200-$2300 new, but how much does the DP6 sell for new?
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Thom, Nice report and summary. I think you're safe as long as you don't mention the Bxsxs Vxctxr! ;-) ... why Moerch didn't drill an access hole into the top of the arm wand disk for easier azimuth adjustment is beyond me.Perhaps to provide the damping fluid chamber a sealed, stable environment and prevent dust contamination? Just speculating. Of course they could drill an azimuth access hole and seal it with a threaded plug. Best of both worlds! |
Hi Larry, all ... Firstly, to those who don't know me, please take my comments with a grain of salt. As a Schröder dealer, I might be just a wee bit biased. Any comparson between the Schröder Model-2 and a Moerch DP-6 would be based on my 2 year old memory of the DP-6 - the last time I had one in my system. This weekend I got to play with a DP-6. I was recruited by a local customer to play cartridge mechanic - swapping a ZYX Airy-3 and a Benz LP into his Galibier / DP-6 rig. The DP-6 had a 9" red-dot standard arm wand (6 gm effective mass, non-precision headshell). For the ZYX, we added 5.1 grams to the headshell (a nickel affixed with Blu-tack). In retrospect, we should have increased the mass of the red-dot for the Benz too, since the red-dot wand has an effective mass of only 6 grams. I noticed one change in the current generation of DP-6 tonearms. The new DP-6 appears to be wired with sliver. Since I was listening in an unfamiliar system, I hesitate to speculate about significance of this change, but my guess is that the wire has effected an improvement. Treat this as speculation and nothing more. The wiring change may tip the sonic balance in favor of the Moerch (over my $400 Micro Seiki MA-505 Mk III). It's difficult to say. Previously, I considered the two arms to be too close to call. One thing may have been lost in my previous comments. The Moerch DP-6 is a very natural sounding tonearm. In this respect, it finds itself in very select company - alongside the Triplanar and Micro Seiki tonearms. As natural sounding as any Schröder? Not on your life, but nothing I've heard to date is as natural sounding. Having said that, these arms (Triplanar, Moerch, Micro Seiki) have their own virtues and one could easily prefer them to a Schröder. Raul can comment further on other arms, like the vintage SME's and the great Japanese tonearms, and I'd take what he has to say very seriously. Some gripes I have about the Moerch include but are not limited to the anti-skate adjustment. Azimuth adjustment in the arm is a great feature, but why Moerch didn't drill an access hole into the top of the arm wand disk for easier azimuth adjustment is beyond me. I suspect that very few Moerch owners even play with the azimuth adjustment due to how inconvenient it is to access the Allen screw. This is a pity. I also wish that Moerch made all of the arm wands with the precision headshell and eliminated the standard headshell versions.. Realize that no product is perfect. I'm certain that there are an equal number of individuals who take issue with the ergonomics of the Schröder Model-2 for example. Gripes and all, you can do a lot worse than owning a DP-6. One exercise I'd like to carry out in the next few months is to put it up against the Hadcocks. This will be a very, very interesting exercise ! Cheers, Thom @ Galibier |
Different cutting heads and other variables clearly can alter vtaIndeed. Many people apparently don't hear it, or haven't. But once you do there's no mistaking it. In fact, if I can't dial in arm height quickly and confidently it's a sure sign that something's amiss in my system. ..but what a pain in the tush!Yet it is the way to go,if one is really serious.We started down this insane path because, like you and most of us, I'm a tweak-ophile and futz-a-holic. Paul thought I was nuts, until one day I finally stumbled onto the sweet spot for some record. SNAP! He literally came running into the listening room from the den (two rooms away!) "What did you just do?". I showed him. It was a microscopic turn of the Expressimo VTA collar on our old OL Silver/Shelter 901. We were doomed. Paul literally found it painful to listen if VTA/SRA wasn't dialed in. (At Cello's he was able to set arm height on Larry's Graham just by the feel of the pressure wave coming from that rear-facing driver on his SF Extremas, without even listening. It's rather scary.) Clearly our OL/Expressimo had to go. Adjustment on the fly became mandatory. Enter TriPlanar. ...he had the version which had a remote control for electronically setting vta,with a digital numerical readout.SHUSH! If Paul learns there's an arm with that facility he'd trade my RX-8 for one. Then I'd have to come find you! He had each lp's vta setting marked on the inner sleeve of ALL his "thousands" of discs.Same here. After cleaning, each LP gets a new inner sleeve and a yellow sticky with the record's weight noted (proxy for thickness). We estimate an arm height based on experience with similar labels, weights and pressings, then find the optimal spot by listening. The exact setting from the arm's dial gets noted on the yellow sticky (to the nearest 1/200th of a revolution of the arm's dial). Of course each new cartridge requires a different setting, but the changes are consistent. For any particular record, if the Airy 2 we reviewed liked a setting of "0" then the Airy 3 liked a setting of "8" and our UNIverse likes a setting of "18". When we upgraded TT drive belts last summer all our settings changed again. Oy! Instead of "18" for that record with the UNIverse we're now at "29.5". Superior TT resistance to stylus drag affects how the stylus and cantilever react to the groove. This was actually quantifiable using the TriPlanar's dial and repeatable from record to record. We may be in good shape from all that jumping up and down, but that doesn't stop us from being INSANE! Cheers, Doug |
WOW,DOUG!VTA for every record!That is the way to go,but I'm too lazy for that one.I DO give you credit as it clearly makes a difference. Case in point--after J.Valin was talking about Alicia Delarocha's pedal work,and sustain,on the London pressing,of the Montsalvedge Pno. Cto,I checked to see if I had it.I did,so I scoped out the exact passage,he alluded to.It was way dry sounding,and thin.This,just after I had tuned for vta,using my usual LP's.I then adjusted vta,again,for this disc,and all was superb,yet my other discs were thrown off. Different cutting heads and other variables clearly can alter vta(as I'm sure you know),but what a pain in the tush!Yet it is the way to go,if one is really serious. I did have an acquaintance who had a HUGE vinyl collection(all the early stuff,on every label)and it was his arm that really got my envy going,BIG TIME.He had the Air Tangent,but unlike my pal Sid,he had the version which had a remote control for electronically setting vta,with a digital numerical readout.He had each lp's vta setting marked on the inner sleeve of ALL his "thousands" of discs.GOD,that IS what I'd die for.Believe me,all my little misgivings,about what arm sounds "this way,or that way" would fly out the window,if I could have that "masterpiece".Only problem--It cost about 13 grand,and I believe it may now be extinct.Yet it was NO Dinosaur!! Anyway I'd be willing to bet you are in better shape than that guy!!All he had to do was push bottons,from his chair,but we get a full cardio workout! |
Rwd, Sorry for being outdated! Milo is correct, Hudson took over from Audio Advancements, although the latter is still showing both lines on their website. Yes, the TriPlanar allows VTA on the fly. So does the Schroeder Reference, though not their two lower models. Cello and I have discussed our Schroeder/TriPlanar/Graham comparisons to death here. Seach the archives and you'll find all the opinions you could ask for! For my partner and me, the main appeal of the TriPlanar vs. the Reference was repeatable arm height settings. The Ref has a an equally sensitive adjustor but no visual scale. There's no way to accurately repeat a known setting. That was very important to us, since we adjust for every record and record arm heights on each LP. Maybe not so important for others. OTOH the Ref is magnificently designed and made. I doubt there's a more beautiful looking or sounding arm out there, and dealing with Frank Schroeder is a genuine pleasure. Choosing another arm over his top model was not easy. In the end its all about personal preferences, a fact which he acknowledged graciously. He even gave me some ideas to improve our TriPlanar's sound. He's a true gentleman. You're welcome to listen to our rig if you're ever in central CT. Not so far from the NYC area, maybe worth a day before dropping $4K+ on an arm. |
Rwd, I don't want to leave you with the wrong impression. I didn't say there aren't major differences between the VPI and Moerch---there are. But they are both good sounding tonearms. BTW I notice that you are using a Benz M0.9. I am using a Benz L2 in the Moerch presently, and I have had a Glider M2 and Denon 103R in both the VPI and Moerch during the last year or so. The Benz carts work very well in both arms. Dave |
Dave and Doug, thank you so much for your quick response! I will certinly check out the Morch. Doug, you said you heard the Schroder Reference and purchased the Planar. What was is you didn't like about the Schroder? Also, what feature's do you like on the Planer. Does it allow for on the fly VTA as does the VPI? Interesting comment you made Dave about the VPI 10. I have a VPI 10.5 and though I would hear a big difference with a Schroder/TriPlanar/Morch, but your comments made it seem that there were differences between the arms but not a major difference. Very interesting!!! I was also hoping someone in the NYC/NJ area that purchased either of the arms above saw this thread and invited me to a listen. If would be really great if I was able to locate 2-3 'goner's in the area with these arms and set up a NYC shoot-out. Seems like all the shoot-out's with these great arms are in Minnisota or Ohio or ????? |
Rwd, The US importer for both Morch and Schroder is Audio Advancements. They're in NJ. I don't know if they have any arms set up but you can contact them through their website, http://www.audioadvancements.com. The TriPlanar website lists dealers and has contact info if there's no dealer in your area, http://www.triplanar.com FWIW we bought our TriPlanar VII (unheard) after auditioning the Schroder Reference. That was a leap of faith but it worked out well, at least for our tastes and priorities. |
Rwd, I can't speak for the NY area, but there's a dealer in the Wash DC suburbs who can let you see and hear the Moerch DP-6. Deja Vu Audio has had a 12" DP-6 set up on a Platine Verdier for several years. The store also has a lot of experience in selling and setting up vinyl gear. I have no connection to Deja Vu other than being a satisfied customer. I am using a DP-6 with 12" Red wand, and I also have a VPI JMW 10 that I can set up on the same table. Both arms sound very good but they have different characters. The VPI (a fairly early version) has a rich warm sound, the Moerch is somewhat lighter and more nimble. The Moerch is to my ears more neutral. Both have excellent detail and dynamics. Dave |
OK....I am quite interested in the Schroder 2 tonearm. I am also interested in the Tri-Planer arm. I have a VPI 10.5 on an Aries and thought that an upgrade to the arm would make a big difference. I live in NYC BUT I can't seem to find ANY dealers in this area that sells the Schroder....Tri-Planer or ever the Morch!!!! Are all these arms purchased from the manufactures unheard??? Can't be....or can it? Anyone in the NYC area have a model 2 Schroder so I can discuss the merits with you? |
Hello Slowhand, When Peter (Redpoint) and I were together, we acquired two DP-6's - with a total of 3 arm wands between us. I used a 9" Precision Red wand exclusively, as I was using Benz cartridges at the time. Both Peter and I had quite a bit of trouble getting predictable anti-skate behavior with the arm. I've heard this from other individuals whose opinion I respect. It appeared to me as if the coil spring assembly was hanging up. I disassembled and cleaned the assembly. This did not improve matters. I always felt as if I was trying to keep a British sports car running when I had this arm in my system. Now, Peter is a tortured soul when it comes to tonearms. He decided to pick up yet another arm wand for his Moerch - a 12" one. Peter told me that this transformed the tonearm over a range of cartridges. We don't know what to make of this, because from an effective mass perspective, there was no change. I have been around enough different tonearms to not buy into the argument of the inherent superiority of longer tonearms. Tracing distortion is only one consideration. Arm tube resonance (and the difficulty in controlling it in a longer wand while maintaining effective mass), bearing loading, etc. also need to be considered. Perhaps these attributes work in favor of 12" as far as the Moerch is concerned. I can't say ... I consider the DP-6 (with a 9" wand) to have fairly nice performance at its price point, but when I picked up a used Micro Seiki MA-505 Mk III at a fraction of the Moerch's used selling price, I saw no reason to keep the Moerch. I had learned all that I cared to about the tonearm. Note that these comments apply only to the DP-6 (in its 9" configuration), and not to the UP-4 tonearm. I think that the UP-4 is an absolutely great buy at it's price point. The DP-6 faces stronger competition, however. I suppose the main consideration is whether you are purchasing the arm new or used. For a kilobuck or so, the DP-6 is a fairly nice tonearm, although I prefer my Micro MA-505 Mk III to it. Certainly, hell will freeze over before you find a Schröder Model-2 on the used market, so you are looking at a more significant outlay for this arm. Cheers, Thom |
Dear Slowhand: +++++ " I am interested in the sonic differences in the 2 arms. " +++++ Those differences depend with which cartridges mates the tonearms, wich TT, with which kind of arm-board ( material ) and of course the musical bias of the person that do the evaluation. Both tonearms are good ones but the DP-6 has an additional plus: it can handle different effective mass arm wands, this means that it works at its best with almost any cartridge. It is a very well thinking and executed design: Recomended!!!!!! Regards and enjoy the music. Raul. |
Hi Slowhand, Excellent question. Unfortunately, our shootouts at Cello's have never included a Morch. I'm sorry to say I've never heard one. The one person I know who has compared them on the same rig is Chris Brady (Teres). He commented briefly on the DP-6 and the Schroeders on the Basis Vector thread that's running currently. I know he thinks well of the top Danish arm, especially at its price point. |
The Teres Audio site lists the DP-6 w/ 9" arm at ~$1,500 and ~$1,700 w/ the 12" wand. So, that's a significant price differently between your choices - not exactly apples to apples, if you know what I mean. Unfortunately, I've never heard a either choice. Hope to soon, thou. Good luck, I'm sure some of the vinyl wizards around here have expereience with them. |
