@gdhal
Sorry, I don't have a Yggdrasil, cannot help you there.
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@shadorne
Many thanks. I suspected that much. I would not want this DAC either. |
@shadorne I understand many here do not care about measured performance as long as they like the sound.
Yes, I am becoming aware of that. Could one say that such measurements-don't-matter audiophiles are like junk food addicts? They like to eat what tastes good to them without caring about the ingredients in their food? |
@shadorne
Good point. Those people do order expensive ingredients. Using their methods of analysis they can’t really tell the good ingredients from bad ones, though. Whatever sounds good is good. Whatever tastes good is good.
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@gdhal
Try the Benchmark DAC3. Nothing comes close. It will not give the fourth verse, but it will play your music better than anything else out there.
About all of your DACs sounding great -- of course they do. Nobody can tell decent modern DACs apart in a blind test. All perceived differences are just due to placebo.
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@ghosthouse "Nothing comes close."
Implicit: "...because, I’ve heard ALL the others and speak from first hand experience. "
No, nothing comes close to their technological expertise. DAC3 measures better than anything out there -- hence, nothing comes close. "All perceived differences are just due to placebo."
Does that apply to the Benchmark DAC3 as well? Of course it does. Tough, I will buy it, when I save some more money. Not because I think it will sound better than what I have, but because I like technically advanced devices. As regards its sound, the placebo effect for subjectivist audiophiles should/will come from the reviews that praise it. For example, the Stereophile says that DAC3 delivers "ASTONISHING FIDELITY AND EMOTIONAL EXPRESSIVENESS". |
@gdhal
Yes, DAC3 and Oppo will sound the same. Not because they use similar chips, but because all decent modern DACs sound the same.
I am glad that you are happy with your purchase.
As regards bit perfect PCM -- the DACs in the Yggy use R2R ladders, at least that is my understanding. The precision of such DACs is not infinite or bit-perfect, because you cannot make perfectly precise resistors. To make a 20 bit DAC work, the resistors have to be really precise -- the tolerances should be less than one in a million and stable when temperature changes, that is < 0.0001%. Those are some accurate resistors! And even with very accurate resistors, the steps between bits will not be uniform, so there will be no bit-perfect output. I wrote a simulation program to see how the accuracy of resistors affects the output of such DACs -- with less accurate resistors you might not even get monotonic output. That is, you go one bit up digitally, but the output voltage goes down. Strange, but true.
Now, don’t get me wrong, the chips in the Yggy are excellent. But if you read their application note, you will see that they deliver about 19 bits in real life. And that is just the chips, the whole device cannot do better than that. DAC3 has just been reviewed by JA in the Stereophile. It delivers about 21 bits of resolution. Not that one could hear the difference between 19 and 21 bits. |
@gdhal
Because DAC3 is the pinnacle of technology at the moment. If it gives you satisfaction to use/own technologically advanced and superbly engineered devices, then DAC3 is your thing. If you don't care about specs and technology, then your choices might differ. |
@gdhal
I don’t want to argue either. I posed a simple question in the OP. I got some good answers, but was also viciously attacked by some aggressive individuals here.
One’s logic almost compels one to ask: how can you get 21 bit resolution out of 20 bit DAC chips. Since independent verification is essential in science and engineering, JA’s (and other people’s) measurements are crucial. That is why we have reviews.
You are not against independent reviews, are you? |
@almarg
Great and very clear answer. Many thanks, super helpful.
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@gdhal
Sure thing. Well, I have learned a lot from some of the answers. I think that Schiit took a courageous step to use R2R chips in their DACs. They have one groovy machine there. |
@shadorne
Sorry, I am out of my depth here. Could you please help me with this. My thinking is as below. Where am I going wrong.
Assume we have 21 bit of data. We use the MSB to select one of the DACs, the +ve or the -ve one. Then we send the remaining 20 bits to the selected DAC. Isn't that equivalent to sending 21 bits to a hypothetical 21 bit DAC? What am I missing? |
@shadorne
Let me ask you a different question. Is there a publication for rational audio hobbyists? I am getting tired of subjectivist nonsense.
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@georgehifi
it does. Some audiophiles claim to be able to hear the difference.
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@bacobits1
Who is Harley? |
@bacobits1
@falconquest
@georgehifi
Ok, I see now. I couldn’t care less about Harley’s views and writings. Irrelevant stuff. |
@shadorne
Seems like you have some excellent speakers. What do you have? |
@shadorne
A very nice system. How come you didn’t pick the Benchmark power amp?
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@shadorne
A devastating point indeed.
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@gdhal
I'll up-the-anti. I'd like to suggest for the moment that you forget entirely about measurements. I don't care if its voodoo. The Yggy sounds spectacular. Please read my last post in the New Yggdrasil - First (and second) Impressions thread.
With respect, bro -- this thread started as a simple technical question and we have more or less arrived at an answer. Let's try to keep it technical.
FYI -- I have asked the manufacturer AGAIN about the 21-20 bit issue. Let's hope that this time they will answer. I am very happy that you are satisfied with your Yggy. I don't share you enthusiasm and will never buy anything made by Schiit. But despite our differing shopping preferences, we can still have a reasoned technical debate about the 21 vs 20 bit question -- as long as we stay technical. |
@gdhal
you make a very good case for the OPPO. Looks like a machine with tons of potential. |
@gdhal
great find, thanks. |
@gdhal
great find, thanks. |
@davide256
Plenty of people here disregarding measurements. One could almost mistake this for Absolute Sound. Whatever happened to understanding science and engineering instead of relying on subjective assessments of "sound quality".
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@davide256
What is this ‘mid-fi’ of yours? Care to give some examples?
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@cleeds
A hobbyist group is fine, nobody objects to that. But being a hobbyist does not mean that anything goes. In particular, sighted listening is useless to judge sound quality. Blind tests are a but better, but to seriously judge audio quality, one must measure.
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