Might it be worth trying garden hose on the woofers and OTA on the tweeters? |
Apart from the upper bass just plain disappearing for a few hours on Saturday, the sound has been very stable since my last post 5 days ago. It is only in the bass where I have had reservations with this cable - during burn-in, the bass has gone just about everywhere except to the target.
I can relate to your comments Dekay - these cables seem to make the system more sensitive to being played at just the right volume. They are not at all bright or aggressive. At low volumes and with relatively bass-less material they do sound bass-light compared with the speaker cables that lurk in my cupboard.
But turn the sound up to reasonable levels and any bass that is in the recording is super-fast and very solid with no bloat or overhang, and there is NO sense of being bass-light at all. I suspect it is just very accurate but perhaps may not be to everyone's taste. With some of my Charlie Haden CDs his bass breathes wonderfully. |
Kitch, good, you just saved me a bundle (even on a 30 day basis). Are they the new "improved" version of the Mapleshade speaker cables (plus $70) or the standard version? The OTA IC's have definately replaced my Homegrown Super Silver IC's in the living room system at this point (I did some A/B's this past weekend). I am also testing the OTA with both solid state and tube amplification (Musical Fidelity X-A1, run at moderate volumes while in Class A and an Audion Silver Night 300B based amp). This is all of course system and taste dependant as the Homegrown IC's do wonders as far as dynamics and pushing the sound stage forward and I will most likely still be using them in one of the bedroom systems as they sound great at lower volumes (better in this context than the OTA, I would say). |
Just the speaker cables, Dekay. You'll have to pry my Silver Lace IC's from my cold, dead hands. They'll be up against the T-14 bi-wires I have that stood up pretty well to Coincident's. Which is not to say they're as good, they're not.
Reading thru back posts about Mapleshade, I was struck by the accolades for the jumpers as much as for the cables themselves. Once I have the jumpers, I intend to embark on testing several other non-bi-wire cables.
All donation's cheerfully accepted. |
Kitch: I will be very interested in your take on the OTA Vs the Mapleshade. Did you order the speaker cable, IC's or just the jumpers? I will post on the OTA in another week and I use the Mapleshade Double Helix digital IC between the Bel Canto DAC (now a 1.1 version which I have reservations with Vs the 1.0 version, but will give it another week) and the Cal player. I just shipped OTA IC's to Albert Porter to audition and when I receive them back, I will try the OTA out as a digital IC (in place of the Mapleshade) and will then have only OTA in the system. I will post about the 1.1 version of the Bel Canto DAC at that time, as well, in the 1.1 thread that I originated for those that are interested in the BC. |
I've got Mapleshade double helix on order, about a week before you guys came up with the Sakura; I'm a day late and a dollar short, once again. It's taking Pierre so long to make the jumpers, maybe he'll include the "secret sauce".
Hey, Pierre? |
Red, Brulee,...- I just couldn't pass up trying the OTA kit considering the descriptions and the cost. My kit should arrive mid-week. After a respectable burnin period, I'll let you know what I hear in my system. Actually, I had my first taste, though quite limited, of the interconnect at Brulee's and was favorably impressed. I'll see how it holds up in a long run (27ft) and over a longer period of time.
(BTW,what are you talking about Brulee? You're getting to the point where you need your glasses to see the "big ugly hoses"! Just kidding.)
Thanks to all for bringing Sakura to my attention.
Enjoy!
|
get back on the merry-go-round, dekay. we're all still riding it. |
I just received a flyer from Maplshade and they now have improved versions of their speaker cable (drat). |
Asa: Please include your detailed observations on the Audio Note cable and we can, at least, compare the cables in this thread for a start. If it is of a similar design (the OTA is .4 mm, or 26 gage solid core copper wire with a thick Teflon, I think, insulation and retails for $600.00US with 50 meters of cable and enough RCA's to make up 3 sets of analog IC's) then the information will make a nice addition, I feel anyway as it will be more like comparing apples to apples. I also wonder how the OTA compares to the Mapleshade Double Golden Helix speaker cable which I was considering before going with the OTA kit (which offered better value for me as I can equip two systems with both speaker cable and IC's from the kit). |
You know guys, everything you've said - and its all very good (thank you...) - sounds very familiar to my reactions to Kondo's AudioNote cables. They are also bare wire connected and use thin strand conductors. Sound? Also "vibrant", extremely "dynamic" without "smearing", pressurize a room with sound that is not necessarily from the lowest octaves, etc etc. Hmmmm... After many years of audio psycho-pathology, I too am past the need for "substantial connectors". Any comments on Kondo/Sakura comparison? Do you think its simply a coincidence that both designs emanate from minds that see their designs in terms of Zen-like simplicity? Most professional, knowledgable, well thought out thread I've seen here, by the way. |
I have approx. 250 hours on both the IC's and the speaker cable at this point and have been running it in 7 hour stretches with an hour or so of rest between them. The sound has been fairly stable past 200 hours and I wonder if the deviation that I am hearing is just my regular electrical fluctuations being somehow more noticeable due to the clarity of the cable. I am going to give it another week (150 hours) to see if this is the case before posting. This is by far the best that the system has ever sounded though and I have already switched out IC's a couple of times for a reality check. |
Hi Slawney. Your 50 times more expensive cables may well be considerably better because I am damn sure I haven't heard anything at that price. That must be round about New Zealand's GDP??
Actually, since my last post the sound went a bit flat for a day or so and is now 90% back to its best and seeming to improve by the minute. I got them about 21 May - and I listen about three hours a day, and my wife plays the system around two hours a day. In addition I have run the interconnects over night at high volume with a burn-in disc a few times. Not so with the speaker cables due to the need to sleep.
So the ICs are probably the equivalent of 200 hours, and the speaker cables only 100 hours. So when I look at it like that the cables are probably going to change some more for a while. Maybe I am being somewhat premature here. But the brilliant rendition of transients has been almost always present with these cables - and when they are not off on a tonal detour, the wonderful microdynamics result in the vibrant room-filling sound you and I have referred to. |
Redkiwi, I am jealous. It cost me 50 times more in cables to get the "vibrant" sound you describe ("room full of music"). Just for the scoreboard: exactly how many hours break-in did the OTAs need before you were sold? |
Welcome to the lunatic fringe Brulee, me ol' mate. |
I received my speaker cable and 2 pairs of IC that Dekay (thanks David) made up for me. I am going to burn them in and will compare them to my FIM Gold and the Coincident Total Reference speaker cable. I can't see these speaker cables when they are hooked up to the speakers. Where did they go? I am so used to those big ugly hoses sitting on the carpet. Am I skeptical? Yes I am. What if this stuff sounds better than my big bad expensive hoses? Will my audio buddies kick me out of the club for using this stuff that I can't see without my glasses? I'm holding you resonsible Caterham1700. If this doesnt work out I am going to sic Cornfedboy on you. I will give comparisons in a couple weeks. I like your batting average Caterham1700. So far your batting 1000. |
I'm sold now. I will be brief.
The sound is vibrant (perhaps forward) in that instead of images flattened behind the speakers, the room is now full of music. None of this is accompanied by any nasty sounds except those obviously present in the recording.
I can hear every tiny detail of transients like cymbals, bells, rim-shots etc. The speed is stunning and the timing is so coherent top to bottom that the music just takes over from the sound. What a treat to be not fretting about the sound of the system and just boogying to the music.
Incredibly, these feeble looking cables make it sound like I have 1300w monos, not 130w monos. The music just breathes, shimmers and shakes.
No congestion, some vestiges only of unwanted warmth (still diminishing as the cables continue to burn in). Otherwise incredibly neutral. Several CDs that were just too aggressive to listen to are now wonderously rich sounding. Some CDs that were muted and a bit lifeless are now brought to life.
I know unqualified raves are not well received here. So I will leave it at this. If you get hung up on the difference between price and the intrinsic value of the materials (as many here seem to do with cables) then forget these cables. If you are mad enough, like me, to lay out USD600 for cables on a chance - then I reckon the odds are high that you will not regret it, provided you have the patience to let them burn-in. If you don't believe in burn-in you will throw these cables away in the first week - just remember to throw them in my direction. If you think these cables cannot be great because they cost ONLY USD600, then you should think again. If you want to spend less than USD600 then work something out with a friend, because the kit gives you 50m of conductor (or 12.5m of stereo pair) and 12 RCA connectors, and you can buy extra connectors and/or cable. I'm stupid enough to be considering buying a second kit so I will have plenty to be able to make cables up in the future as my system changes. My Coincident, Cardas, Wireworld and Siltech cables are not going back in the system. |
Sorry Slawney i didn't answer your question. I only have them as ICs and speaker cable at present. |
Kimosabe, the bass has arrived. Still a little rubbery at the very bottom, but strong, powerful, fast and extended - better through the upper bass and mid-bass than either my Siltech or Wireworld. The PRAT is outstanding. The vibrance of the sound with these cables has no nasty edges, just that silky presence you get from a great MC cartridge, making some previously difficult CDs sound very good. The sound is still changing slightly, oscillating between the slightly warm and slightly lean, and the bass continues to improve, but I am officially excited now.
I cannot quite comprehend how such a thin and simple cable could be giving so much more than all those other cables I have or have had. These cables give you none of that pride of ownership you get from the high-end looks of the expensive stuff. As Ken says, it looks like you have your gear connected by some nylon weed-wacker cord. My wife accepts them as not being "totally destructive of the room's ambience" - I think she is reluctantly admitting she likes how the system fills the room with music like never before.
When I am more satisfied the sound has stabilised I will describe all the goodies about this cable's sound. Shame about the very painful burn-in phase. Who ever says burn-in is a myth is just plain ignorant. |
Slawney. I happen to agree with your comment about the Coincident cables. They are still very good indeed for the price and I have a friend who is desperately waiting for me to sell mine because he likes them so much (I lent them to him for two weeks in place of his Kimbers, then took them back and it was hard to get away). |
Redkiwi, you lone ranger! Do you have the OTAs between your TT and the phono stage as well? This is the one connection I can imagine where a thin cable might work superbly. Based on your positive experience, I am going to try to convince the European distributor of 47 Labs to sell me a 25cm run of four for my TT setup: I am not daring enough to hook them up throughout the whole system like you. At least, not until you have some realistic bass steadily coming out of your speakers. (FYI, be careful about publicly criticizing the Coincident IC: I just received maximum negative points for hinting they are a bit dry and unnatural on voices in a different thread.) |
Well blow the feathers off m'Kiwi and call it a Wallaby! Listening to the system the last fewdays has been like watching a new flower open up to the sunshine. There have been times when I have been close to ditching these cables and going back to my Coincident and Wireworlds for some decent sound. But in the last four days the sound has been circling 'round perfection in the mids and tops, and in the last day they have been zeroing in. The last day the cavalry has begun to emerge on the horizon - we now have some decent bass emerging! I got so excited I just had to take a reality check and put the Coincident ICs back in place (which had been kept percolating on another system), and.... YUCK! The 47 Labs is so much more vibrant, resolving, natural...
I reckon these cables are getting near to reasonably run in at last. I will come back when I am more sure that the sound has stabilised. But I don't feel nearly so stupid now. |
RedKiwi: I shoved the cable so hard the first eight attempts that I still do not have any feeling in the tips of my thumb and index finger and this was a couple of days ago. I started out with the speaker cable and then later added the IC's. My problem is that I am coming from solid core silver IC's which can be very addictive and much prefered the sound of the HG's to the newly installed 47 Labs IC. This happens every time that I switch to a copper cable and it usually takes a few days to wear off. I do like the the sound of copper IC's, but the change is always rather drastic. I have the speaker cable running through the front wall (the one behind the speakers:-) through four separate holes spaced 10" apart (finally got the electronics moved to the hallway closet) and do not have the energy to try twisted pairs at this point as it would require too much work. I will leave the cables as four isolated runs for the next three weeks, but am interested in what you come up with using twisted pairs as I can always try this out after the cables are run in. |
Hi Dekay. I am using the 47Labs for interconnect and speaker cables. I couldn't stand the idea of running them in separately either. I no longer use any digital interconnects and only need a stereo pair of ICs and a stereo pair of speaker cables in either of my systems. I have not used solid core cables for a while, except that the cables I have been using each use several or many solid cores separately insulated. Given I am getting quite excited by these 47Labs cables I feel I need a reality check with a good solid core cable in case it is just my system context that is causing me to like single solid core cables now, when I did not before.
The impact of twisting the cables is an interesting point. I first ran them untwisted, and the sound was a bit vague, so I twisted them together loosely and the sound tightened up a bit. Later the system was sounding a bit thinned and congested and flattened, and so following Ken's advice I untwisted them again and the sound was better. It is hard to know where the sound of these cables will end up but I feel untwisted is probably going to be better. Very hard to know since moving the cables results in more burn-in.
I emailed Yoshi of Sakura Systems on the twisting issue but his reply was non-committal.
By the way, I didn't have any of the problems you encountered with threading the cables into the ground connectors - which is a little bit odd because we must have ordered the cables at about the same time. I just held my mouth right and gave the cable a shove and it went in. |
RedKiwi: Both of the IC's that I was using before are solid core (pretty sure that the Mapleshade is, though I can barely see the wire itself, and I know that the Homegrown Audio's are). Are you using analog IC's made from the 47 Labs kit as well or the speaker cable only at this point? I am going to try using one of the 47 Labs IC's as a digital cable once my DAC arrives back from Bel Canto and currently have 47 Labs IC's installed with the speaker cable (thought that I would let it all run in together to get it over with). |
Just a comment on what I term smearing. If smearing of sounds occurs due to cables then it tends to happen to all sounds (as opposed to vibration which tends to just affect one narrow band).
The effect it has on all sounds is to obscure the fine detail, but accentuate transients by making them last longer. So the cymbals spit, voices are overcome by sibilance and go hard when they are pushed hard by the singer, and the bass seems nicely weighty but lacking articulation and seemingly behind the beat. If you approach these effects thinking they are merely an issue of tonality you will be wanting to tighten up the bass, but smooth the upper frequencies. A warmer cable or component may tame the harshness of upper frequencies, but the bass gets worse. A leaner cable or component gets you more articulation in the bass but the upper frequencies get harder. Sound familiar at all?
Solid core cables tend to be better at avoiding smearing, and the sound is smooth and grainless, with black silent backgrounds. You don't get that crispy crunchy sound accompanying the transient (which I think is what Dekay is describing) that comes from smearing the initial attack. So instruments like classical guitar can sound wonderfully natural with solid core cables. But finding one that performs well over the full frequency range has always eluded me. It is too early for me to tell whether the 47Labs Kit is the exception, but Ken (Caterham1700) reports that it is, and so far the 47Labs sounds more promising than any other solid core cable I have tried.
The most interesting part to me is the fantastic PRAT that is emerging from this cable. I reckon PRAT comes from minimising smearing, so that the listener perceives the transients to be happening at the correct time, thereby perceiving the band to be playing "in the groove" together. That should suggest that all solid core cables have good PRAT, but not so, which comes down to the fact they tend to only work well over a narrow band. But this time the speed of this cable has a coherence top-to-bottom that I cannot recall hearing in my system before.
All of that makes me think I should have tried some Tara Labs cables before now. I would be very interested to hear from some Tara owners on this one. |
I would like to make a few notes on IC assembly for those that may be ordering the kit (or that have already received it). When assembling the Black portion of the RCA, the cable insulation needs to be beveled at the edges in order for it to fit into the channel (along with the bare copper wire). When you have the kit in hand you will see what I mean by this. I shaved the end of the insulation from approx. 1/16" out to the end, at an angle with a razor knife. Before figuring this out I botched two sets of IC's twice and then made up one pair successfully (which means that I now have 20 connections involving the Black RCA portion under my belt, though have wasted quite a bit of the cable in the process:-(. The White portion of the IC does not require this treatment to the insulation and is a snap. When initially stripping the wire for both the Black and White section of the RCA's 1 3/4" to 2" is adequate to work with, so take this length into consideration as a portion of the bare wire will double back instead of extending the length of the cable (again this will be clear with the kit in hand).
Sound wise (so far) I find RedKiwi's comments about lack of "smearing" interesting as I suspect that he is describing something that I did not previously have the proper "words" to describe. I have referred to this in the past as a sound that somehow accompanies but that is not really a part of the music as it kind of rests behind (though is attached) to each note (I like "smearing" a lot better:-). What I do notice with the speaker cable at this point is that the background is very silent and that the notes seem to manifest in the air and not from the speakers (with well recorded CD's). The "smearing effect" if that is what I am describing, always hinders this illusion to some extent and the speakers are more evident in the mix. I have rejected a number of CD sources and IC's in the past because they did this to the sound and am now discovering that my previous Kimber Kable was also adding (though slightly) to this affect. Otherwise, I do not have a clue as to how the cable will sound as it has been all over the map in my setup as well and will post again in a couple of weeks. |
The cables have gone through some interesting changes. But at all times there has been excellent PRAT, a grainless smoothness and minimal smearing - each parameter being significantly better than with any stranded cable I have heard. The lack of smearing means transients are not accompanied by any noticeable distortion, the soundstage is fab (and very deep), and fine detail resolution is excellent. All this is not exceptional because many solid core cables I have heard have had these qualities to some degree, but fell down in really only getting a narrow band of frequencies right. The problems I have encountered have been with tonal anomolies and an occasional swimmy vagueness. But these problems only last an hour or so and then are replaced by another.
My assumption is that all the good points will remain intact and the problems are just burn-in issues. I just have to be patient enough to wait for that to happen. Most of the time the mid-band is pretty good (except when the lower-mids occasionally disappear. The biggest changes are in the bass and treble where they are occasionally good to very good, and then do a disappearing act.
Something about the sound of these cables make me very optimistic. |
Redwiki, looking forward to your results with the Sakura Systems cables when you have them. |
Yes Ken, when I tried the solid core stuff years ago, each thickness seemed to have its sweet-spot, with 0.6mm having it smack in the mid-range, rolled-off top and bottom, very smooth but lacking fine detail resolution. So far these cables don't sound like that at all. Tight and analytical is certainly the direction that twisting tended to take the sound. I judged that beneficial at the time because it was sounding vague and dark. But I will take your advice and separate them again. I just listened to an album where for the first few tracks the voices sounded high and not fleshed out, but by the end of the album they were sounding wonderfully rich and full. I am just going to have to be patient, but so far experience tells me there is a good cable trying to come out.
I have emailed Yoshi on the twisting question and will report back if I get a reply. |
Hi Red,
I first started out with the speaker cables alone and didn't introduce the IC's till well after the speaker cables had broken in.
I likewise tried twisting them into a loose weave but eventually decide that doing so made for a somewhat "tight" and more analytical presentation and so went back to running them as separate strands(bi-wired Neat Elites on Mana Soundbases).
I am somewhat hesitant to describe the sonics as my own system is quite different from your own(Roksan ROK s1.5) but will say that you should not fart around too much for a while.
It seems that burn in goes thru plateaus and stages that seen to completely alter the presentation by frequency bands.
At first I found the quickness and transparency that are so alluring(and upper octave harshness as well) but later it became very dark,even brooding and warm. Finally it regained the openness,fine detail and sweetness along with the speed.The tonal qualities did not fully balance out for almost 3 weeks tho all the basics of its signature had become evident by that time.
btw, I had tried the old DNM solid core years ago and had come to the erroneous coclusion that solid cores worked wonders in the mid band but always rolled the top and truncated the bottom.The 47Labs Stratos OTA has completely altered my perceptions, particularly in the superb power, articulation and extension of deep bass.Cardas and Harm Techs never made my room shudder,shake and growl like these little 2 ways are doing to my room now.
Ken |
I may be stupid, but I am not alone. In fact I like the company.
I was surprised to find the cable was delivered yesterday (only ordered it Thursday last week). The manual was something less than I expected. First I made up the interconnects and installed them. I was relieved that the cable did not sound like Cat5 at all. My immediate impressions were that the cable was a "contender". No bloat, wonderfully natural, very large soundstage (particularly depth), exquisite bass (so open, deep and powerful), possibly rolled-off on top. Of course that lasted about fifteen minutes and the sound started to change becoming thin and congested in the mids, getting some high-end extension and losing some of its bass extension. Over the next hour it kept on changing. So no miracles here folks - the same old burn-in stuff. So it was then decision time. Do I make up the speaker cables and let it all run in, or do I wait to see how the interconnects mature? You guessed it, I made up the speaker cables. On first listen to them the mids and highs became more open but the whole bass region was pretty awful. An hour later the sound was improving but not yet good. Oh well, I shall have to be patient.
Interestingly the sound was nothing like CAT5 conductors, which are the same solid core conductor guage, but with a much thinner teflon insulator. The grade of copper and teflon is also different of course.
Ken, I am interested in how you have configured the cables. At first I just ran the conductors separately, and then twisted them together to see what effect it had. The sound was more open, more focussed and more coherent when the conductors were twisted together. But at this very early stage it is difficult to determine how they might change in sound. And from experience flexing the cable (whether twisting or untwisting) tends to cause any cable to go through a burn-in cycle, so it is always going to be difficult to figure out the best configuration by just listening. By the way my Martin Logans definitely prefer being bi-wired, so I am running shotgun (or should that be double pea-shooter) bi-wire speaker cables. I am expecting that twisting will be a good idea for cancelling interference. I was somewhat disappointed that the manual from Sakura Systems makes no mention of this at all.
I cannot help being reminded of the Jimmy Hughes fad for thin solid core cables many years ago. I experimented with various guages and mixtures of guages and settled on 0.6mm as the ideal. It is interesting that this stuff is thinner than that. By recollection, the thinner guage tended to be very fast on top, very focussed but slightly thin in the mids, and tight, articulate and dry in the bass - in comparison with 0.6mm.
From your post Ken it will be some time before I will be able to post any conclusions. Are you able to post a description of the interconnect and speaker cables as separate items? I must admit the sound so far indicates a lot of promise, but with some question marks over the cable between my valve monos and the woofers on the Logans - but clearly too early to tell yet. |
Don't fret kiddies.
You'll only feel stupid for a short while after you get your teeney -tiny little package with the weedwhacker line in it.
You'll probably have a good chuckle and then worry about hooking them up to your amp cause it's so skinny that you'll be positive that your amplifier will cause the sheath to and set the house afire.
These things take an incredible amount of time to burn in tho.I recall about 2 weeks to stop shifting tonal balance & settle in and another two before they completely stabilize.Have fun.
Best,
Ken |
The kit will be arriving later this week and I will let you know how stupid you are when I install it and give it a run (sorry you really need to know this). Brulee will also be using the wire and should be able to give you an idea of how it actually sounds. |
