Red...LOONNGGG- term break-in? How about break-DOWN? I've noticed the fuzziness of the New York Times to be increasing over several YEARS! Wonder how our ears are doing, huh? At least I got my literary fix from Slawney today.... Cheers. |
You tell him Asa!!! Come on Slawney!! Sell me that baby! Please??? :) |
Thanks, Slawney, I laughed out loud! This thread is a hoot! We should have the scientifically-attached (like the medieval, mythologically-attached before them)dashing out from the woodwork any moment now on some crusade to purge the world of all minds that, heavens forbid, see beyond the rubic, the matrix, of their own ideas (but, does heaven forbid such possiblities? Is objectivism bounded by a closed skeptism towards possibilities, or by an unbounded open-ness towards them, and those in ourselves?).
I'm happy for you, really, but let's see if you sell your Statement to Bwhite. Hmmm, now that would produce a real empiric experiment: trial and error is not only discovered by the discovery, but, also, through the discovery of absense... |
Okay Slawney, that's great, now would you please sell me your NBS Statement???? :) |
Caterham1700, Redkiwi: your truths (expressed in verifiable, deduced, measured language) show the precise extent to which I was "overflowing" before. You have my complete respect. Asa: many a Zen master shouts a profound analogy to his disciple when administering a blow of learning. --Why should I relegate NBS Statement (yes, series 1) for OTA? I only have one OTA IC pair right now. Since I have not experienced OTA through the entire system, I still have the hope for a new convulsion. The only 47 Labs electronics I use right now is the PhonoCube (which proceeds from the same sector of the 47 Labs universe as the OTA wire). --To come back to Asa's diagnosis, it is entirely correct. By frequenting NBS Statement for a long time, living a long time in the intimacy of its "harmonic complexity" and "spatial realism," something like a "vision" arose in me. With OTA, by contrast, not so much my inclinations or my tastes as my very blood changed, as if a thrilling stimulant had been injected to alter its course, its density and nature. NBS Statement made me more demanding on the formal level of the mind or spirit (the German "Geist" covers both meanings): NBS Statement has an artistic genius. But OTA intervened in the deepest part of my organism which annexed OTA as it would a vice: Asa calls this the "reptilian brain stem that wants excitement," but I think it was my arteries and veins, and, dare I say, my heart. In OTA's vicinity, my reptilian body, my circulatory system felt fortified. Will my body finally weaken and disintegrate when the OTA Cable Kit arrives from Japan via Bosnia? Will I become a parasite of its poetry? --"OTA, without Thee I am mad, yet with Thee madder still!"--Such would be the result of my contact with this cable. |
Slawney, Slawney, my little grasshopper, you have strayed from the fold, failing to perceive "vision" in default to you reptilian brain stem that wants excitement. Hi Slawney, how you doin'? Seriously though, and without commenting on the price differentials (which are not relative, as some would argue), nor to the sound of the Sakura (which I haven't heard)... What I think is being missed here in a NBS Statement (your series 1, right Slawney?)and Sakura comparison (assumably IC's)is the synergy issue between IC's and spkr cable. NBS IC's are superior IMHO to their spkr cable - and many other speaker cables match well to their IC's sans their spkr cables. I look at NBS as an interjector of a certain nuance in harmonic complexity (deep into the harmonic fabric) and spatial realism (at the shallower levels of listening, in how sound waves move in space; symmetrical and continuous and with proper projection qualities) and at the deepest levels existentially (the deep intuitive grasp that the "event" of musical connection between mind and music is not cut by a soundfield that lacks a intuition of dimension). In the most advanced systems, these are the qualities that one is still after and a component that accomplishes it should not be relegated based on an immediate reaction to "speed', "detail", and the thrill of dynamic swing and contrast that are predomonantly appreciated at less deep levels of listening (which doesn't mean that they aren't important, just that they can get in the way if over-emphasized in relative value). What I have recommended to many people is a subtle mix: NBS Statement IC, usually between a tube pre and tube amp and a "faster" spkr cable that is capable of also translating the essense of the NBS IC attributes. Interestingly, in this application I have also ended at a thin conductor for speaker cables: AudioNote Kondo KSL. If I had all-Sakura electronics, then, of course, all Sakura cabling makes sense. But I dont know many audiophiles, including Slawney, who are at that place, or would stay there.
Slawney, from deep below, the "vision" is calling you through the sensitizing veil of the Matrix (its Halloween, you know)... |
I have not come across a cable that gets the start, body and decay of musical events so exquisitely right as the OTA cable. It is this kind of immediacy and natural energy that is so obviously present in live music and that yet so few systems come close to emulating. Much as I enjoyed and admire Slawney's post, and thanks Slawney for improving on the attempts here to describe the OTA, the difference (for me) is simple - other cables I have tried seem to swap one "sound" for another, whereas the OTA seems to allow the music to overcome the issues of "sound". I am not saying that the OTA is perfect, but I fear we audiophilanderers are often seduced by the superficial beauty of sound, when what's good for us is to be faithfully wedded to just the music. The OTA is an important step in that direction and one that no other cable I have heard comes close to.
I must apologise for my rambling and roundabout attempts to pin this cable down. I just cannot help playing with it to see what different configurations sound like (and I have tried several that I have not reported on here). And I have probably reported on more dead-ends here than successes, but I am just excited by this cable, and I get an overwhelming need to share my enthusiasm.
As to the burn-in issue, Ken is right, I have been trying different configurations and burning in new cable each time. Now you know I'm crazy. |
Bwhite, Slawney is indeed a poet and I make no pretense of being able to match his lyrical stylings...but yes, I am in perfect agreement as to his assessments of the 47 Laboratory Stratos OTA. These are a remarkable product and they have challenged most of my preconceptions about cable design. Firstly, they are possessing of an incredible ability to follow even the most complex passages with speed,separation,articulation,pace and agility. They capture the subtle emotion bearing nuances of dynamic inflections,both macro and micro, with aplomb. They have an intense and engaging quality of living,breathing vitality and lucidness that I cannot recall having heard from any cable prior. Tonally ,I find them hard to qualify,they don't seem to have a *sound* at all. Mostly, they get out of the way of the music with a superbly natural coherence and otherworldly transparency. One must consider that they can be fairly ruthless in revealing shortcomings or problems in one's system. The Stratos OTA's will not gloss over the cracks with turgid,syrupy romance.Like the old saw goes-garbage in, garbage out. The presentation is a bit more forward than some other cable products,tho not with any degree of pushiness or shortening of staging qualities. If you have any dryness or aloofness in your setup, it will showcase that deficiency by laying it in your lap like a cold,wet fish. My other caveat is that the single thin strand of wire is naturally somewhat fragile and the clever plastic terminations are somewhat ideosyncratic in use. I have an audio related business and use the OTA's in 2 separate systems here and must regularly change out components for audition.I find that I must take a bit more time and care when swapping pieces to ensure the best connections. Other than that,I have no inclination to audition any other cables again.They're that good. Best, Ken Lyon |
Caterham, I think you're right - Redkiwi was discussing multiple configurations.
So.. 400 hour burn in means about 16 days of constant playing before the cables settle in.
Do you agree with Slawney's assessment of the OTA's? |
Bwhite,
My recollection is that the OTA as a speaker cable took some 200-250 hours of play for "burn-in" and that used as IC's perhaps as long as 3-400 hours.In both applications the first 100-150 hours were unusual in that they seemed to completely change in tonality in addition to the typical top end air & smoothness and bottom end definition/extension issues of other cable products.I would describe the final phases of burn-in as "settling in" with greater refinement,ease, solidity and coherency as the basic character of the cables had been fairly well established by that time. Altho I can't really speak for Redkiwi,it's my impression that what you are reading as prolonged burn-in over many months is actually his reports and reactions to several alternate cable configurations that he has been playing with. |
I have another question, but first... Slawney! Outstanding review/comparison! It was very much appreciated! You are a poet!
Now for the question:
How long does it take to break this stuff in?
From reading through the posts above, it seems that Redkiwi has been experiencing changes in the sound of this cable since June 2001 - we all know it's nearly November. So when does it end? |
Manzoor, thanks for the compliment, and permissions granted; perhaps send the whole "OTA cable kit" thread to TAS. |
With your permission, I want to send your comparison review of NBS and Sakura to the Absolute Sound magazine.
As far as Sakura cable, I tried it as speaker cables, and it replaced my Bearlabs Silver Thunder sp cables (although it is a great cable, but not as alive sounding compare to Sakura). But, Sakura as interconnect cables, it could not replace my Bearlabs Silver Lightning. As an interconnect, Sakura became little bit thin, and threadbare sounding.
Even, I cannot use all connected with Bearlabs Silver Lightning ic (the system still sounds little bit thin sounding), so I also use Lindsey Geyer ic with Bearlabs ic, and Sakura speaker cable. Now, my system sounds detail, fast, organic, neutral, sound comes from blacker background, it feels like real musicians playing in my room.
After all, sytem matching is the name of the game in the hi-end. I am done with searching cables (trying to find the right cables since, 1988), and thanks to everyone here in audiogon, other web sites and mags. |
Bwhite, I will draw a comparison between NBS Statement and OTA for you, but, because of recent changes in my mains, and an entirely new phono stage still breaking in, my observations might only have the value of a "fait divers." These two cables are as different as Evian mineral water and a high-voltage battery. I opt for NBS when I want a "fluid" cable that spreads itself over the signal, and will espouse, not explicate the musical reality. I opt for OTA when I want a "crystalline" cable that can waken me to rhythmic inter-relations, from the bottom to the top of the instrumentation. NBS has its grand accents, but ultimately, compared to OTA, it seems to withdraw from certain risks, dangers, annd even depths; OTA has fervor, allows the listener to experience the fascination of the extremes, and can be dynamite. It can reveal impurities in the recording, and all that makes it curious, but, with its superb timing and speed, it can also teach alot about rhythmic inter-relations (as I already said) even in cases where the interpreter was not able to make these most clear in the performance. I used to think that NBS Statement was the greatest of cables; it reaches so far, gives the musicians so much room to play in, and relays so many subtle distinctions, that the cable swallows me up every time I listen with it. OTA sets me free: it makes me able to understand the music, to diagnose the deliriums which have produced it, to dream of imitating them and exaggerating them myself (I am a musician, you should know). NBS gives a great vision, but OTA is a stimulant. I would say that it sets liseners (and esp. musicians) free from an innate paralysis inherent to the seduction techniques of high-end audio. Sure, there is a juggling act in OTA at times, it makes one think of an acrobat, I love its clown-show at times, but its vitality also derives from an inner tension that it is able to project outward. (Note: For all of the stress I have laid on OTA as a cognitive instrument, please do not mistake this as meaning that the cable is "analytic" in the pejorative sense of that word. This cable also creates a deep, visceral involvement. And, do not think that I have itemized argzuments against NBS, favorable to OTA; the value of both of these cables seems to me to emerge intact. Yes, through its price, OTA does have the ability to call the price of Statement into question. But it is not a situation where, if you cannot afford NBS Statement, you need merely buy OTA, at 1/10th the price or less, because these cables have two completely different characters.) |
Hi Sead
Methinks you are right about it being mellower - but that is not what I heard initially. I have kept quiet while waiting for the break-in to occur. After break-in, the sound of the system was very laid-back using the multiple runs, and failed to get the attack of notes right. Possibly the bass flowed and breathed a bit better, but overall the single run is better. |
Redkiwi,
Can it be that "fuller and richer" is actually "mellower"? Multiple strands are the negation of the physichal principles 47Labs cables are based upon. Really, we are talking about a "time domain smear" and consequence to that is your initial provisory assessment of the multiple strand arrangement. I could bet that you will realize that it is not the way to have it after a while. But then, I don't mind people buying more cable. :-)))) ....Just kidding....
Best, Sead |
Bwhite, I will be able to compare Valhallas -- in about a month's time though! Love to hear others' experience. Mine is a ss or tube-ss (change b/ween the two now) set-up. |
I am nearly ready to try this stuff...Can anyone draw a comparison between the Sakura OTA and say...Valhalla? NBS Statement? Omega Mikro? AudioNote Kondo?
If so, please share. |
Slawney,
Would that I could have contained my unbridled passion for this cable and waited for the full blooming of its beauty. Alas, impatience and a licentious desire for detail overcame me and in a moment (actually about 20 minutes) of vinyl weakness I made and installed the arm cables.
I knew that break in would take a lot longer than the IC's and the speaker cables. As you say we are dealing with .28mV instead of 2 volts. But from the moment I fired up the turntable I knew I had made the right decision.
Compared to the standard Linn Ittok cable the OTA is an aural laxative. Detail floods down those tiny hoses. Sometimes it's too much detail at once, producing an overwhelming and slightly confused picture. I have faith that things will sort themselves out eventually. Although a friend who doesn't fully believe in cable break-in thinks I'm suffering from recto-cranial inversion.
This unchecked "wall of sound" is confirmed on my Stax SR5 phones. It occurs mainly when the source material either contains numerous instruments or doesn't have a well-defined mix. Small jazz ensembles, acoustic music and spaciously mixed records now have almost a holographic presentation and exquisite detail partcularly in distant cymbals. Bass has gained in extension and solidity. There's even more space between instruments. The drum kit on a lot of LP's is now on the patio, six feet behind the speakers.
The ride may be bumpy for the next 200 hours. 1600 hours if your inverse law happens to be correct. I really can't believe it will take that long though. But from the first 15 seconds I was sold again. This cable has what it takes to make me abandon any further search. How do you follow the sound of nothing ? |
"demiurgical divagations"?? Where the hell is that OED...and the magnifying glass?! |
Slawney, that's beautiful writing, if I may say so. BTW, another one (me) ready to take the 47 trip -- although I have "officially" put cables behind me... (with a set of modestly priced Bearlabs). |
Palmnell, I would have fully broken-in the OTA cable before installing it in the turntable pick-up arm. There is an inverse relation between signal voltage and break-in time. With your turntable cartridge outputting signals in the millivolt region (as opposed to the 2 Volt signal from a CD player), you can expect a far longer break-in period for the turntable pick-up cable than 150 - 180 hours. I still have not taken my first OTA off of the CD player/STAX unit, although it has more than 300 hours on it. First, because I still hear changes in it. Second, because it is the most enjoyable cable I have used with the STAX earspeaker unit. The quick speed of the OTA cable combined with that of the electrostatic driver makes transients flash at a dizzying rate. I am starting to think that the inspiration behind this cable proceeds from a certain exaggeration (I mean this benignly, and explain myself in what follows): in general, music--and the whole world of high end audio--would be a pitiable excitation without that rapture that dilates sounds until they burst. With OTA I now hear the attacks of instruments clearly and the timing relations perfectly organized. With most other cables, the sounds encroach upon one another, as though none could attain the equivalent of an inner dilation: there is a kind of hernia of sounds in most other cables by comparison to the transcendent rupture in OTA, which miraculously raises recordings to the heart's altitudes as well. At this point, here is the question OTA has raised for me: are not the truths of musical beauty fed on exaggerations, demiurgical divagations of sound? Has electronic minimalism ever been more effectively combined with ecstasy? A tiny cable, the wellspring of tears! such is the enigma of 47 Labs and the secret of musical art. Sonic trifles swollen to the heavens, the improbable, generator of a universe! 47 Labs/Sakura Systems/Konus Audio are geniuses. |
Just like to add my experience with Sakura cable. I've obtained the best sound by running the .4 cable on the positive/hot and .6 on the negative/return, both single stranded. Some of you are aware that there are two 47 Labs cables, one that is slightly thicker than the other.
A friend of mine, while in Japan went over to Junji Kimura's (designer/builder of all the 47 Labs gear) house and listened to his setup. While there Mr. Kimura told him that he prefers not to use multiple strands of cable. (Even on his power cords!) Mr. Kimura said that multiple strands break the signal up which affects the "timing relationships" in the music. I'm not sure if this is exactly what he meant because, even though my friend speaks fluent Japanese, true meanings get lost in translations. |
An interesting idea. I had never thought of that. Unfortunately I don't have any cable left over, so I may have to buy more to experiment with multi-wiring.
I did however rewire my turntable pick-up arm withe the OTA cable. The difference is immediate and positive. Bass is much fuller and more extended. Transients are faster and the imaging is almost holographic. I suspect that I will have to endure the same break-in quirks (parts of the picture just plain disappearing from time to time). But I'm confident that at 150 - 180 hours this change will be the most significant yet.
The only problem I have noticed is that there is a slight hum, probably caused by the fact that the OTA cable is unshielded. Perhaps Sead has some tips on how to get rid of it ? Apart form that I'm now completely sold on this puny looking cable. I think that my cable upgrade days are numbered.
|
Just to throw another spanner in the works!
I had more OTA than I needed so I built a set of cables using three lengths pos and three lengths neg on the bass, and two lengths pos and two lengths neg on the panels (of my Martin-Logans) to see what multiple lengths would sound like - and being very careful that all lengths were identical.
Not fully run-in yet, but it is an interesting alternative. I find there is more ease, the sound is perhaps fuller and richer, and no obvious backward step in what the OTA was already good at - but that last observation will have to wait till it is fully run-in. Good as the OTA is, it may be that the multiple lengths will improve things through offering less resistance. But I am mindful of the impact on inductance and capacitance so am routing the cables carefully. |
Add another audiogoner to the "lunatic fringe" or set of "disciples" or "purgatory" (all phrases from this forum) of people that has the OTA hooked up and breaking in. Sead (European distributor of 47 Labs, who has countless connections using the OTA already under his belt) made up a pair of OTA ICs for me, and they are breaking-in right now off the main system, between a CD integratred and a STAX headphone tube driver unit, so that I can monitor the OTA electrostatically every so often (no comments about soundstage until later, when I have them on the main system with the speakers). I started the break-in on 29.09.01, so the IC has about 25 hours on it, and what I have heard during this first stage is not too much different from what Redkiwi and Dekay have aleady said with admirable precision about this first OTA plateau: there is an alluring transient quickness to these cables that goes along with a startling immediacy and detail. Harmonically, there is already some exquisite if a little dry bass (open, deep, powerful), but certain mid frequencies are still thin, congested, closed-off (not all mid range frequencies, since guitars are absolutely perfect for some reason), and the highs are a bit vague. I am coming from wide-diameter stranded cables that I have been heavily addicted to for a long time ("garden hose") and the change is rather drastic (Sead said it would be) as well as highly exciting, since I am hearing things in a totally different way now, a way that is hard to put in "audiophile language." Last night I kept on mumbling to myself: it was as if the OTA cable is no longer "listening to the music for me" before I am, but letting it pass through the air to my ears "without the cable listening in." Later, I thought: maybe this cable will turn out to be far less of a "transducer" than other cables, at least that was the hope that took shape. What was instructive was the extraordinary level of pace, rhythm and timing (PRAT) that these single solid cores achieve and that Redkiwi has already glossed so well: all parts of a groove are now happening at the correct time, I can even hear if digital delay settings are slightly incorrect and clash with the main groove. Also surprising to me is the absolutely silent background, allowing me to hear ambient details outside the recording venue (birds chirping outside the window, cars passing outside, etc.)--a "blackground" I thought was only achievable through extremely heavy shielding, not this thin covering. I now think with hindsight that the OTA cable was an integral part of the emotive, vibrant, resolving, natural, direct and forward sound that I heard from the 47 Labs system at High End 2001 (Frankfurt), and that the comments of fellow audiogoners on this forum about OTA break-in will be absolutely prophetic of what I am going to experience through these cables for the next few weeks. Two final comments: 1. Sead related a beautiful anecdote about the OTA cable from the mouth of Junji Kumura (Sead, correct me if I am wrong with the name, since I know you are reading this): standing atop one of the tallest buildings on the "Zeil" in Frankfurt, he said: "You can toss one of our OTA cables off of this look-out point, and it would land on the concrete ground unharmed" ready to be put back into an audio system, but if you tossed one of those big cables off, it would be totally destroyed. Sead summarized the point of Kumura's parable: big cables create their own problems and obstacles. On another theme: 2.) I was crazy enough to flat-out buy a 47 Labs MC PhonoCube and Power Humpty without hearing it with my own ears first, and now have the power transformer warming up. |
Thanks Sead,
I will use as small an amount of silver solder as I can possibly dispense.
I have found a new definition of purgatory: Breaking in the OTA cable at the same time as I'm breaking in a pair of Triangle Antal speakers and a Denon 103D cartridge. There are promises of heaven frequently punctuated by the threat of something less pleasant.
BTW. I can see the commercials for Sakura Condoms "It's the closest thing to air." You could use that for the cable too.
All the best,
Mark
|
Sead, Thanks for your thoughts regarding the Gaincard powering the Coincident, Super Eclipses. The reason I auditioned the "S" (50 watt) version is that I have a room (16' X 25' carpeted) that seems to damp things down, and I end up requiring more power. My experience with lower-powered amps and the "Supers" has been somewhat different than many others'--including the speaker manufacturer's.
The music needs to have a physical presence. I don't mean increased SPL's and thunderous bass, per se, but a kind of tactile there-ness that does not come through with small amps even on the Supers. Too often, lesser-powered amps seem to accentuate the visual, the shell of the thing in the recording that makes the music rather than the kinesthetic, lending a feeling of solidity to the thing. Sort of like shimmering ghosts on the stage instead of flesh and blood.
The recommended Manley Reference, 300B Retro mono amps were woefully underpowered for my room and music taste (large orchestral) IMO. I did not mention this in my original post to this thread, but the Gaincard-S clipped something terrible. Somehow, I doubt the 25-watt version would be the right approach given my experience so far.
I have settled on the Cary SLAM-100's with their 95 watts in triode mode. (They can be switched to 165 watts in ultralinear, but they don't sound as complete in that mode.) I heard the Atma-Sphere M-60's on the Supers and could not live with their lightweight presentation. I even found the A-S MA-1 MkII's to require some room reinforcement to bring out the same kind of weight in the bass that the Cary SLAM-100's bring. While the MA-1's are indeed fabulously transparent, extended, life-like, etc., they too seem to struggle a bit in my room. Perhaps with tube- and cabling adjustments, I could have drawn more from the MA-1's. For now, the Cary SLAM-100's are just about right.
Either I was shipped the 4-Ohm version instead of the 14-Ohm version of the Supers or my room, music- and listening-mode tastes just don't allow for the kind of amps most people pair with them.
In case you were wondering, I had my hearing tested. It's quite good. I did not go to lots of loud concerts in my youth. Some other audio-nerds have found my comments about their systems to be mostly valid. Who knows, maybe I AM wired incorrectly. |
Mark,
Gentle crimping isn't usually a good idea. Unless you can make a really good crimping connection, you better solder (and this comes from someone who hates solder). Good pressure is needed to keep the air off the contact.
Thank you for your kind words. Making condoms? That certainly is an idea to consider :-)))
Best, Sead |
Thanks Sead,
I just received a van den Hul 90 degree phono plug and I'm going to rewire the 3 feet between the arm base and phono stage. I wonder if I can gently crimp the sockets internally so that I don't have to use solder ? It's worth a shot.
You have an astonishing product in this cable. This must be the closest thing to connecting components with air. Have you considered making condoms ?
Keep up the great work.
Mark |
Hi Sead,
I'm still here. You know, my system sounds so good these days so I can't leave... Yes, I was so happy with the Yammamuras as ICs with my Gaincard. I agree with you that Gaincard sounds very good with other cables but, as you know, its full potential is given only with the Storatos. It's the same with the whole 47 Laboratory system, including digital cables and, what I consider as the essential point, power cords. Considering that OTA cables are so affordable (comparing to the all mega-bucks, thick, heavy, stupid full-of-all-kind-of-coloration cables) it's logical to supply them with the Gaincard and with other 47 Lab equipment. I've recently heard Storatos as a ICs in my friend's non-47 Laboratory system and I was amazed of how much improvement they brought.
Regards,
Ivo
|
Hi Ivo,
I thought you went for vacation? Funny, we live like two blocks away from each other and we meet here. :-)) My point was that Gaincard will work with other cables as well. Possibility is that most of these cables may do injustice to it but I have no problem with that, as long as Gaincard is not accused for revealing some nastiness in the rest of the setup (and funny how people easily jump on accusing Gaincard - if revealing is the crime, yeah, let someone bring the rope, the bastard amp must hang! Dunno, must be something in the size of it... and they say size doesn't matter... hmm.) Now, having lots of people using OTA these days in non-47Labs setups, it is kind of unusual to look for something else for Gaincard. Still, we both remember well that you were not unhappy initially using Yamamura as IC with Gaincard and that it took me quite some time until I had you let 47 cable properly burn in and realise its full potential as IC.
Best, Sead
p.s. One of my former dealers used to hold a weight on Gaincard, claiming it sounded better taht way. I really couldn't do anything about it.... except to take him off the dealers list. :-) |
I think you should try the OTA speaker cables with the Gaincard. Very soon they will tell you the truth: every, I mean EVERY other speaker cable manipulates with music. Than, you could try the OTA cables as IC's.... |
No, Gaincard doesn't have to be used with 4708 OTA Cable kit. I think this became obvious for everyone glancing through numerous reviews where reviewers wouldn't use it even if strongly suggested as a far better solution from what they've been using.
What you have to take care about when using other cables is: - you can't have bannana speaker connectors connected to gaincard's output terminals. Spades are ok, although some of those monster spades tend to ask for a wider head screw as replacement for the stock ones. - female RCA connectors on all of 47Labs gear are gentle. As with other gentle things in life, you don't treat them with a brute force. overtightening of the macho-type male connectors may damage chasis RCA connectors. btw, they are made that way on purpose. - very thick and heavy cables can affect mechanical properties of the Gaincard (and they are important for the sound!)
I can see no reason for having S version connected with Coincident speakers. What I would do, if I were you is to go back and have a listen of:
a) 25w Gaincard and two 25w Power Humpty b) 25w Gaincard and ONE 50w Power Humpty
You may end up with a better result and some money left in your pocket.
As a starting point, my advice would be to stick to 4708 OTA Kit and only after growing up with Gaincard for a while to investigate other cable options. Or, alternatively, just keep the cables you have (unless they are really completely incompatible ones) and look for new cables after a few months. By no mean it is carved in stone that everyone must use 47Labs cables. Some of us just like them.
Best regards, Sead |
Hi,
4708 OTA is too thick and too inflexible for internal tonearm rewire. Eh, I wish it could run from cart to phono preamp... :-)
My suggestion would be either to get a single run of a good tonearm wire and have it run all the way to phono preamp from the cart or to use the tonearm wire through armtube and to have OTA take the rest of the way from the arm to the preamp. If so, particularly if using LP12, make sure to have the wires together with some plastic string as it will make the P-clip dressing much more comfortable experience.
Best, Sead |
Nice to see that the forums are back.
Has anyone tried this cable from a pickup arm to phono stage ? I'm tempted to internally rewire my Ittok, but I thought I would test the water first.
Thanks.
|
Does the 47 Labs, Gaincard amp really HAVE to be used with their own OTA wire or similarly thin wire? A 47 Labs dealer once told me that the need for small gauge cabling is over stated in reviews and such.
I tried a fully broken in (according to dealer) Gaincard S (50 watt version) with double power supplies for three days using the Coincident, Super Eclipse speakers. It sounded OK with no pre-amp in between it and my DAC. Other than that, I felt I would need much more time and perhaps different cables to really get a handle on its capabilities. It did have the deepest sound-stage I have heard from any solid state amp. Not the most important thing, but worth mentioning. |
Hi Kitch29,
"And those guys at the Frankfort show used it for power cord?"
Yes, we did, we do and we will. :-))
"It doesn't seem like it would be possible to tightly twist the OTA but I thought someone might like to try this configuration."
Neither it is possible nor would I recommend tight twisting OTA. We deal with RF where it makes the most sense in our opinion - by getting off the excessive metal. Tight twisting and whatever may work with some other cables (stranded ones in particular), not with this one. Some loose twisting may be advised in less than perfectly balanced setups, otherwise, "just let it flow".
Best, Sead |
Dekay was good enough to send me a couple of feet of the OTA to try as jumpers. I'd been thinking from this thread that it was about the same gauge as the Mapleshade. WRONG! If you think of stranded 22 gauge wire and then consider ONE of the strands, that's the OTA! And those guys at the Frankfort show used it for power cord? I also wanted to pass along to Dekay, Redkiwi, Brulee, Caterham, et.al., how the Mapleshade is configured. There's been some discussion of twisting, not twisting. An 8 foot pair is 16 feet of twisted pair with one wire cut in the middle. Those two cut ends are connected to the + and - posts with the other returning to the amp. In other words, it's a single wire cable with another wire wrapped around for, I guess, RF rejection. It doesn't seem like it would be possible to tightly twist the OTA but I thought someone might like to try this configuration. |
Hi Hazem, excellent post. I know exactly what you are saying. Hard to describe in words. I'm totally lost too. Lost in the music like I have never heard before. Thank you so much Caterham, Redkiwi, and Dekay for bringing the OTA to my attention. I am in your debt. |
Anyone interesed in splitting a set? I would love to try them out after reading this post. |
Hi James,
»Hi sead, it would have been nice to talk to you at Frankfurt High End 2001, but I could not find you.«
I was there 90% of the time, the remaining 10% of the time I was out for business talks. The fact that my wife wasn’t there either at the time of your visit indicates the probability of your visit either on Friday morning/early afternoon (oh, well, she was spending money in shops downtown Frankfurt) or on Sunday when she went out to take a look on what is going on at the show, outside of our room.
»You have your headquarters in Sarajevo (correct?)_«
This would be very much of an overstatement to say headquarters but, yes, we have our office and a demo facility in Sarajevo.
»_.and there can be no doubt that to meet you among your equipment there, in the very place where your 47 Labs set-up was conceived and usually operates, would be an unforgettable experience.«
There is only one way to find it out..You are welcome anytime. :-)
»Probably not like meeting you at the Frankfurt trade fair--namely, to encounter an original, undeviating (despite the soldered speakers) audiophile amid this swirl of different sounds, "omnia sua secum portans," on the alert in the dull grey light of his room in the Kempinski. To be sure, the big audio show exhibit is not a format in which I might initially expect an understated, minimalist system--and one of the subtlest ones at the show--to reveal itself.«
You are right. It was hectic, many people coming and going, I even can imagine insulting some people by not providing as much attention to them as either their name/background/whatever suggests would be required, or simply some nice people I wish I had more time to spend with.
Soldered speakers_ Uh, huh, maybe someone can help here for me it is impossible to apply sufficient amount of pressure over relatively large surface of speaker connector pin for a good crimp connection. Better not to crimp than to do it badly. Besides, if I had more time, as usually do, my Jordan drives would end up (as they already have, just after Frankfurt_) without these pins completely_
»But to my ears the situation appeared differently. Your efforts brought the ideas behind the 47 Labs equipment into sharp focus for me. »
Thank you. These are really very kind words and they are a bold confirmation of what we try to do to have a sense.
»2. The use of the STRATOS wire as a power cable. I am glad I was correct here: chalk it up to my sharp eyes, and curiosity. The Frankfurt area has notoriously bad AC and I was curious how all of the exhibitors would handle that problem.«
Half of the outets in our room were out of function_ Fortunately the power cord we had was long enough, otherwise we would be in trouble of spending quite some time making new powercords. Good thing is that I never go without an extra reel of Storatos. Even better thing was that Teramura san's geniality anticipated the problem well in advance :)
» Please, do not take my words "casual attitude towards resonance" as a critique, but a hidden gloss. In the 47 Labs interview for "enjoythemusic.com" Junji Kumura offers an "alternative medicine" perspective on resonance: "We are not trying to control resonances... Instead of trying to kill off resonances by damping, we are trying to find a way to live with them." Koji Teramura added: "We can't stop the vibrations no matter what" I simply thought that the exhibit was an embodiment of these ideas. It seems once 47 Labs takes a particular direction, they follow it through as far as it goes with a certain resoluteness. This commitment to extremes (what else is it but dialectic and life's breath and passion?) can be seen in your cabling very clearly. Was it also in the shelving of your components, I wondered?
No, I don’t take your words as criticism at all. It is very important to stress out our position regarding vibrations and it’s a great thing that you are making reference to this Enjoy The Music interview as I see it as a document of particular importance, regardless of somewhat nonchalant atmosphere that this interview is wrapped in. It is a VERY important document for understanding of philosophy behind 47Labs and their products.
We don’t kill vibrations for a very simple reason as they can’t be killed throughout the spectrum equally thus every try results in some sort of imballance. Besides, killing resonances results in_. a silence. We want music. We will probably have a chance to meet and we can talk about only this aspect for hours.
It is very important, in our opinion, not to alter the resonance spectrum and to drain it as much integral as possible.
Shelving is always a compromise. There are two basic approaches and we agree with one school of thoughts and dissagree very much with the other. The one we agree with tries not to isolate units from vibrations but to try to enable fast energy transfer from the units through shelves to the ground (as the practically infinite energy storage, at least in respect to amount of energy we talk about here). We think that it is not possible to kill vibration in it’s entirety so, the cure is worse than illness and we certainly can’t agree with this type of thinking.
Ken Lyon is my very dear friend and we’ve spent hours and hours of talks on this subject and I am very glad that his philosophy is almost identical to mine. His immense empirical experience on the subject of audio applied mechanics has resulted in me pushing him back into production of almost forgotten (due to the wrong marketing) and now very much improved Neuance shelf. I only hope he won’t hate me for that but Neuance is an excellent shelf nevertheless and I am very glad that more people will have the chance to have it as a result of the new production.
» Restricted Low Frequency speakers and music. I simply was not in the room when any demanding bass recordings were played.«
Yups. Although, we’re not chasing after admiration over low registers of our setup, it happens that some music has bass as well. :))
»Big bass is not a big sonic priority for me anyhow. Nevertheless, I would have loved to have heard the Rickie Lee Jones "speaker crusher" you mentioned.«
Neither is for me. I don’t really appreciate these common but brutal surgical measures of majority of audiophiles resulting in cutting of the music into freq. range pieces. I prefer to look at things in their totality, when it comes to the music.
Rickie’s recording is a vinyl EP, I understand it is a rarity these days. I play it because I like it, not because it’s lethal.
»Scarcely any of the recordings I heard were ones that normally turn up in my listening room or ones that I am familiar with. But as I sat there listening to them in my armchair, hands busy scribbling in my notebook or clasped behind my neck (more often the latter), I was overtaken with admiration, It was fascinating to follow that vocal recording of "American Pie" in its undeviating clarity and closeness.«
Now I should be smart enough to say something_.
»Since the breaking-in of cables is lengthy, the involvement of many of the above posters with the 47 Labs OTA Kit seems to move in phases. (In and out of phase, as it were, ;-))«
That is a perfectly normal thing. We learn through all our lives, why audio would be an exception?
A friend of mine, also a 47Labs afficionado, when asked about the break in time for Gaincard uses to say: »To my knowledge, it takes two years, I will let you know how it goes further on_«
Okie, to make things easier for this »out of phase« fella, I must say that I was very much confused and stressed over the fact that there are Power Humpties and Power Dumpties and I was obsessed not to mix them up, to the point that I was marking what’s what. It took me more than two months to realise that they have entirely different connectors and that it was impossible to mix them, even by accident_
»I ventured to provide some poetry above for the close emotional involvement I felt for the music through the 47 Labs system as I think that everyone who becomes closely involved with 47 Labs equipment does not really go through phases, but a fundamental transformation of sonic and electronic priorities.«
I used to have a warning on my web site (oh, when will I find a time to redo this pathetic web page of mine?) about serious effects that listening to 47Labs may have on how one looks on music, audio, even life. I was not kidding at all!
Now, I would say that, with those who are of the sensibility that may percieve what we do, first contact with 47 is somewhat shocking but the profound feelings and sensation grow over time, together with the understanding of the concept and the rediscovery of one’s music collection. It would be reasonable to assume that I, being inside of this, already take it as is, without this new sensation but the real fun lies over the fact that this path we’re on brings new surprises, new excitements continuously and it’s the fun and a great privillege for me to be a part of it. Spending time with Kimura san and Teramura san in Frankfurt were THE most exciting moments of my audio carrier.
»They also get much closer to the pure affective experience of music, as I think Hazim indicates in his post. If any of my words are authentic, they owe this to the poetic and deliberate dialectical construction of the 47 Labs system you built for us in Frankfurt. Thanks.«
It is my privillege. I am delighted that there were so many people who’ve managed to understand the message we’ve tried to send out.
Best, Sead |
Hi sead, it would have been nice to talk to you at Frankfurt High End 2001, but I could not find you. You have your headquarters in Sarajevo (correct?), and there can be no doubt that to meet you among your equipment there, in the very place where your 47 Labs set-up was conceived and usually operates, would be an unforgettable experience. Probably not like meeting you at the Frankfurt trade fair--namely, to encounter an original, undeviating (despite the soldered speakers) audiophile amid this swirl of different sounds, "omnia sua secum portans," on the alert in the dull grey light of his room in the Kempinski. To be sure, the big audio show exhibit is not a format in which I might initially expect an understated, minimalist system--and one of the subtlest ones at the show--to reveal itself. But to my ears the situation appeared differently. Your efforts brought the ideas behind the 47 Labs equipment into sharp focus for me. Your entire account of my informal "review" of the 47 Labs exhibit is very fair and kind, and comes to terms with some important points about the 47 Labs equipment and the exhibit. 1. Names and professions of those involved. I just asssumed all were engineers. I did not see the name tags, nor the women, BTW. 2. The use of the STRATOS wire as a power cable. I am glad I was correct here: chalk it up to my sharp eyes, and curiosity. The Frankfurt area has notoriously bad AC and I was curious how all of the exhibitors would handle that problem. 3. Resonance. Please, do not take my words "casual attitude towards resonance" as a critique, but a hidden gloss. In the 47 Labs interview for "enjoythemusic.com" Junji Kumura offers an "alternative medicine" perspective on resonance: "We are not trying to control resonances... Instead of trying to kill off resonances by damping, we are trying to find a way to live with them." Koji Teramura added: "We can't stop the vibrations no matter what" I simply thought that the exhibit was an embodiment of these ideas. It seems once 47 Labs takes a particular direction, they follow it through as far as it goes with a certain resoluteness. This commitment to extremes (what else is it but dialectic and life's breath and passion?) can be seen in your cabling very clearly. Was it also in the shelving of your components, I wondered? 3. Restricted Low Frequency speakers and music. I simply was not in the room when any demanding bass recordings were played. Big bass is not a big sonic priority for me anyhow. Nevertheless, I would have loved to have heard the Rickie Lee Jones "speaker crusher" you mentioned. Scarcely any of the recordings I heard were ones that normally turn up in my listening room or ones that I am familiar with. But as I sat there listening to them in my armchair, hands busy scribbling in my notebook or clasped behind my neck (more often the latter), I was overtaken with admiration, It was fascinating to follow that vocal recording of "American Pie" in its undeviating clarity and closeness. Since the breaking-in of cables is lengthy, the involvement of many of the above posters with the 47 Labs OTA Kit seems to move in phases. (In and out of phase, as it were, ;-)) I ventured to provide some poetry above for the close emotional involvement I felt for the music through the 47 Labs system as I think that everyone who becomes closely involved with 47 Labs equipment does not really go through phases, but a fundamental transformation of sonic and electronic priorities. They also get much closer to the pure affective experience of music, as I think Hazim indicates in his post. If any of my words are authentic, they owe this to the poetic and deliberate dialectical construction of the 47 Labs system you built for us in Frankfurt. Thanks.
|
Hello everyone,
I just could not resist saying something here, although I am not sure I can rely say anything cleaver nor anything new. I feel like I have completely lost ground under my feet and do not know anything about electronics nor acoustics at all. After I have tried the 47L cable and amplifier in my system (and have immediately bought it) I just got totally lost. I am sorry that I am not able to use all those technical terms and descriptions that you use when describing this cable and its sound, but I do not feel comfortable enough that I know the meaning of all those words anymore.
All I know is that I am completely pulled into the art of music and a new dimension of absolute harmony that has suddenly appeared in my room. Nothing else matters. |
Yes Kitch, how is the sound? Should we be trying the OTA out of phase and perhaps with a lemon twist? |
Whatever you do don't flog yourself with the cables, something to do with the dialectric. How is the sound now? |
After much soul-searching, study and prayer, I have decided to reveal the fact that I am an AUDIO MORON. I'm sure that both the members that take my opinions seriously will be shocked, but there it is. All during this discussion of the OTA cables and what I intended to be a sidebar, or op-ed, if you will on the Mapleshade Double Helix I was breaking in, I mentioned the imaging problems I was having. Both Dekay and Redkiwi had noticed something similar with the OTA but their cables settled down and mine (the Mapleshade) didn't. Two days ago I decided that perhaps one of the channels was out of phase so, and I know you'll find this hard to believe, I actually LOOKED AT THE SPEAKER POSTS to see. Sure enough, the left speaker had the leads reversed. (sound of hand hitting forehead rather loudly) Oh, the shame, the ignominy! How could I return to the forum and waste more time? At first I continued posting as if nothing had happened. But my crime was a cancer eating away at me. I HAD TO CONFESS. But to do so would bring ridicule and dash any hopes of ever achieving that elusive goal of the set of steak knives. Finally, I realized that someday, someone would find out the aweful truth which would spread out across the internet. I had to reveal my stupidity and hope that my betters would treat me with mercy. You will, won't you? Please?
|
Dear Ken,
I will have to dissapoint you - I couldn't make the functional and long lasting crimping in this particular application so, yes, I've betrayed my personal preferences by soldering Storatos to the speaker drivers.
Best, Sead
p.s. uh, how could you have time for e-mail when your're posting so much... |
Hi,
Me again_
“Caterham1700, I was wondering where those isolation shelves came from! Nice work. 47 labs had them all resting directly on the floor (no rack at all).”
I must admit that we were planning to use the rack_ Since it was late on delivery, by the time it arrived, we had things layered on the floor, as you could see it. We liked it and decided to keep it that way.
There were the cones underneath the shelves but, since there is a double layer of carpet in Kempinski, even the speaker spikes couldn’t reach down to the floor, I wonder if these coned had any positive effect. Nevertheless, Neuance has done a good job. Yeah, Ken was very specific about the placement but I took some liberty of judgment since I am reasonably familiar with Neuance from before, so who’s Ken Lyon to tell me how to use them_ ROTFL :-)))))))))
“Did you intend them to be used this way?”
If he hasn’t answered yet_ NO. On a hard floor_ YES.
“ Either: they have a very casual attitude towards resonance and vibration; or: they place absolute trust in your shelves.”
If nothing, we don’t have any sort of neglect nor casual attitude toward resonance and vibration. Perhaps some ideas we have may sound unusual, even heretic but mechanical aspects are among the first aspects of design behind 47Labs.
We, however, have a casual attitude toward the possibility of a sound achievement on the shows. I had great laugh looking some brands booking their rooms weeks in advance, bringing sound engineers, decorators and architects, trying to, by remodeling the rooms entirely, alter the acoustics, and still ending up with a pathetic results_ yet expensive one, that is for sure!
Absolute trust? Until I stepped in Kempinski, I didn’t have trust in myself, not to say Neuance. But, when we started the setup, in like two hours it took us to relatively satisfied go to the town for some fun, the trust was back. : - )
I was never shy over the fact that I like Neuance. It is a well thought of product that has proved itself in both show and home applications. So, it was me pushing Ken to send me these and not, as it usually goes, the other way round.
“They also had a very relaxed attitude about moving the STRATOS cables around.”
Why bother? It ain’t glass to break. ;-)))
“They continually moved one between the FLATFISH CD Player to the PITRACER CD Player without any noticeable signs of anxiety that this would jeapordize the sound of their display system.”
As I said in my other post, we were short with power supplies, so we had to share one DA converter between PiTracer and Flatfish. So, we had no option but to move the cable around. Really, we were not worried about breaking some molecular structures within. I leave this fear to those thinking they can do a policeman work within a cable and have particular electrons directed through some particular strands and some other very particular electrons directed through the other, now different strands_
“ As for the geometric arrangement of the cables, they did not twist the two cables around each another, but ran them parallel and adjoining with sharp bends to ensure a rectilinear cable infrastructure.”
Cable behavior is dependant on the arrangement but, in a well balanced setups no twisting we find necessary. It’s a complex issue and certainly exceeds the scope of this discussion.
“It was difficult to detect the type of movement-induced anomalies to the cables that have been referred to here since each move of the cable was continually accompanied by a change of component, and because the speaker system was limited low frequency, and also because they played recordings with limited bass _.”
I didn’t notice any particular bass specific selection of the music we’ve played. The speaker goes to a healthy 37 Hz so, why bother? We had some very bass demanding material on play, especially as we were gladly playing other people’s material. Playing low registers of an organ in such room would be a disaster to anyone at the show, not just us but, I would disagree over the complexity (dullness perhaps, lol) of the bass in Tracy Chapman or Peter Gabriel (synthesized bass) recordings. Nor I would say playing double bass on Oscar Peterson’s Live at the Blue Note is a sign of a deliberate avoiding of a bass heavy material. Or, and that is also possible, our understanding of bass differs. Or, Miles Davis “Tutu”_As the final argument, I would stress out that we were playing on numerous occasions a very famous speaker crusher, Rickie Lee Jones “Under the Boardwalk”. I would love to take this particular recording to someone else at that show and see if the setup would collapse in a physical sense under the same SPL we had it running smoothly.
“_and also because the listening session had to satisfy the demands of product exhibition for a large mass of people.”
Indeed, this is very much correct.
“Despite all that, I thoroughly enjoyed this system's lucidity.”
Thank you very much.
Best, Sead |
Hi James,
Thank you for the kind words. This is probably my first post on a public forum in more than a year.
Since I was hoping to meet you, I wish you'd raised my attention by making the reference to our earlier correspondence. It was chaos in there as you could see but regardless...
»At the High End 2001 Trade Fair in Frankfurt last week, three wise, attentive and artistic engineers from 47 Labs proudly displayed their System, trying to leap gracefully over the very tall linguistic barrier between them and the German audiophiles asking about "those cables."«
Well, there was only one engineer, really, Kimura san. Other members of the crew were Teramura san, Sead san, Buba san (funny I didn’t know Japanese address female with san as well) and Ichihara san (Kimura san's friend, not into music and audio but a nice guy nevertheless!). We were missing Yoshi san but he couldn't make it to Frankfurt this time. He was there with us spiritualy, so it's ok. :-))
Oh, yeah, it was a great fun, really! We had many people coming in for few times in disbelief that we actually use the VERY SAME wire from the mains outlet to the speaker drivers.
»When, all of a sudden, Slawney noticed in cold sweat what was connected to the 4 Power Dumpties (the high capacity transformers feeding all of their components)! Well, they were all connected in parallel to a single plastic AC plug (German wall outlet) with very thin fishing-line wire that looked very similar to the STRATOS wire 47 Labs were using on all of their components (maybe the Power Cord wire was a little thicker than 0.4mm OFC interconnect and speaker wire, but not by much).«
We were short with power supplies so we had to improvize with only four of them. PiTracer takes two power supplies.
Please, the wire you’ve seen that we were using as power wire IS 47Labs Storatos cable, not thinner nor thicker than 0.4mm OFC solid core copper we use for everything else.
Very nice touch was the fact that this power cable is arranged in a bouquet arrangement, reducing the number of power connectors, thus reducing quantity of metal as well. Not to mention the convinience of not having to check all the cable polarity once one of them is set right, no need for extension cords etc.
»I know that the KIT says about the Stratos wire: "do not use them as power cords!"«
And, I will repeat the warning. Reason for this is very pragmatic in many countries it is illegal to have electric appliances connected without ground and/or with such thin cable diameter and/or with the level of insulation that Storatos cable provides. So, we wouldn’t stimulate our customers to break the rules and/or safety regulations in any way. No, we’re not crazy to kill ourselves by using Storatos as power cable but certain precautions are necessary.
I was very precise in Frankfurt explaining to the visitors that we do think it is sonically beneficial to use this wire as power cable as well, however that using it presents a clear break of safety regulations that are in power in Germany.
» This system was the most jaw-dropping demonstration of the effects of bare-essentials component parts, short signal paths, and minimalist cabling I have ever experienced!«
Thank you very much. I take it as a personal compliment as I was the one who made a risky decission about the setup (bringing some unheard of speakers to a setup that aspires for a high acceptance level on a show is was a VERY risky thing). Btw, what was seen in Frankfurt is my personal setup (except for the turntable which was too complicated for me to carry and Willy Bauer was kind to land us one of his nice DPT decks). Just, it all sounds MUCh better in my demo room as it doesn't have such dissasterous acoustics.
»It compelled me to adopt a new mode of understanding and experience. (So here comes the poetry.) Every event in the music communicated itself to me with supreme intelligibility--a system internally and externally illuminated and inflamed by the music itself!«
Can we discuss the copyrigh of these words? I find this as one of the most inspired compliments I read on 47Labs.
»And what WERE these speakers I was listening to? Three-way speakers with gigantic active sub-woofers! Just kidding. It was just a plain, single tiny 6" Jordan driver in a wood tombstone with no binding posts, the STRATOS going directly into the cabinet to the speaker itself.«
Many people were very seriously asking us to disclose where we had subwofers hidden in the room....
I particularly enjoyed drilling the cabinets with a very thin drill, knowing it would just have to let in the cable and not to fit binding posts (I hate these shiny interference antennas!). Unfortunately, unless specifically requested, retail version will have some binding posts. We still haven’t figured out the ones small enough_ Probably will use something similar to what Gaincard has_ just plain screws.
Best, Sead |