Sakura Systems OTA Cable Kit

I just finished using some smaller pieces of OTA as jumpers from some female rca's (to PCB) that I replaced on an amp that Dekay very kindly sent me. If anyone out there has any leftover wire that they would consider selling, please e-mail me. I'm thinking of enough to do a half-metre interconnect, and if I'm not mistaken, I would need about 2 metres (or 6 feet) to do that. I'm also thinking of a little experiment with an ungrounded power cord which would require about another 8 or 10 feet, but that is not critical. So if anyone has either 6 feet or 14-16 feet that they'd sell me, please let me know. Just bare wire, no connectors required.

Dekay,

»…. Once again, all of the posts failed at the "cross hole" section which is without a doubt a structural weakness in the design. I realize that tooling expenses are quite high, but would suggest eliminating the "cross hole" entirely and instead using an "outer ring", which would slip over the shaft, for this locking purpose, if retooling ever comes up.«

If I am picturing it right in my head, the outer ring can't make a solid spiral that would withstand even three unplugging, thus would make life even harder and the spiral pretty loose. The entire purpose of the cross hole is to ensure for a neat yet firm spiral.

Sure, this hole makes the plug less strong at this point but, nobody really thought of torsion force taking place there, and it should not be subject to torsion under the normal operation, therefore everyone should avoid twisting and rotating the shaft while plugged in, if nothing, it screws up the spiral aesthetics and also can lead to breakage of the wire. :-)

I hear you mentioning the heat and, that could explain it in your case. Heat, plus a bit of a twist and off the plug goes. Really, to my knowledge, you are the first one to break it… :-(

»This should not effect the sound (it may even improve it as it would eliminate the haphazard "loop" which most likely occurs when threading the wire through the "cross hole")….«

Theoretically, yes. Practically, I am not sure as the loop is there also in the signal return plug and I am failing to find something sonically wrong here. It sure would make things stronger but I really have no negative experience with this.

»As far as Matching RCA's with the OTA counterpart, I have never seen the "strip" example….«

Theta had these on some equipment, Marantz has them and lots of others do as well. Hm, maybe I have not found the right word, that is also possible (but I think you know what I mean anyway). Again, this means nothing in terms of quality of a connector.

»On another note, someone once mentioned to me that OTA "banana" plugs (for attaching the cable to speakers) would be an interesting addition to the kit….«

Banana plug makes a subtle but noticeable improvement in terms of further reduction of sonic glare and even better palpability. That is, in speakers that have standard banana binding posts. I think the reason bananas are not part of the OTA kit in US is the fact that most of customers wants to use the kit in the most rational way, thus replacing bananas in favour of two additional RCA plugs (to make for 3 sets of interconnects) should be looked at in this sense. In Europe, we normally supply bananas with the kit but we have two RCA connectors less in the kit.

I dunno if Ivo is following the discussion but he may be able to fill in with his impressions about bananas, as he has done a thorough testing with and without. Also, after some burn in time, I hope that James will share his impressions with us as well, since he's got bananas in with his kit.

The best thing, however, is to avoid 5 way binding posts in general as it presents (IMO, as I don't want to get into discussion with anyone dissagreeing on this) such a waste of material in order to fascinate an average consumer.

»I will add that I have probably installed/uninstalled the connectors a great deal more than what I would consider the "norm" ….«

It should be no big deal to have the broken ones replaced.

»I do not wish to detract from what I consider to be a truly high end but affordable (to many of us) product, …«

No need to mention this. I uderstand perfectly well.

»Good to see you back in the forums again.«

Thanks.

Best regards,
Sead

Hi Sead:

The ones that break the most are the ones connected to hot tube gear and/or a SS amp which runs predominantly in class "A" (also quite "hot" @ the RCA's). I assume that it is the heat that weakens them (as these female RCA's are not on the "tight" side) and/or thermal cycling as I do not leave the tube amps on all of the time. One of the center shafts, however, was broken due to my error when not maintaining a 90% angle when removing it from a Bel Canto DAC (which has very tight fitting female RCA's on it). Once again, all of the posts failed at the "cross hole" section which is without a doubt a structural weakness in the design. I realize that tooling expenses are quite high, but would suggest eliminating the "cross hole" entirely and instead using an "outer ring", which would slip over the shaft, for this locking purpose, if retooling ever comes up. This should not effect the sound (it may even improve it as it would eliminate the haphazard "loop" which most likely occurs when threading the wire through the "cross hole") and it would make this part a great deal stronger (both by eliminating the "cross hole" and by adding the "ring" surround to the section which is subjected to the greatest amount of stress when installing/uninstalling the RCA's.

As far as Matching RCA's with the OTA counterpart, I have never seen the "strip" example of these type of connectors but recently became aware that the OTA RCA's are not compatible with vintage type RCA's (the ones currently on a Pilot 240 amp that I am using). The easy solution to this is to replace the female RCA's on the vintage piece (as they are garbage anyway:-).

On another note, someone once mentioned to me that OTA "banana" plugs (for attaching the cable to speakers) would be an interesting addition to the kit. This may have been RedKiwi's suggestion, but I cannot remember for sure, and am unable to locate the old email.

I will add that I have probably installed/uninstalled the connectors a great deal more than what I would consider the "norm" due to experimenting with different cable configurations over the past 8 months. I also never asked for replacements outright, though did make it clear as to why additional ones were required (but @ that point I had only broken 1 or two of them as I recall).

I do not wish to detract from what I consider to be a truly high end but affordable (to many of us) product, just to detail my experiences with it in which the positive's far outweigh the negatives (that is if sound is one's main priority).

Good to see you back in the forums again.

Sorry for the lack of contribution to the discussion for some time but it was impossible for me due to an increased workload.

To understand why there might be problem with making contact, one must look into the design of female RCA connectors (the ones on the chasis), particularly the inner, signal "lip" that makes contact.

Some female RCA connectors have round lips that make full 360 degree contact. With these an OTA RCA will make an instant contact however you plug it in. 47Labs chasis RCA connectors are made this way.

Other types may have either single or double "strip" contact surface and with these, you need to align the spiral that you make with OTA cable bare ends over the plug that cable makes contact to it. Sometimes several tries may be needed but once you have the contact, problem solved. With ground cable plugs in place, it should be safe to make this adjustment with gear turned on (volume on lower value, however, is better). If no contact, unplug completely the signal only plug, rotate a bit and plug in again, repeating this until there is a solid contact.

These differences in construction does not mean that one female RCA connector is better than the other.

I am confused, however, how Dekay has managed to break even five of inner plugs (Dekay, if that means anything, I think I have one extra and could send to you, for more I would have to ask Japan)... Delrin is pretty elastic material.

Ultrakaz, your friend is right about Delrin static properties but that is only one part of the story about this material and why it is used in this design - on the other hand, your friend is wrong if he says OTA is a telephone cable. It's starting design premisse was based on a telephone cable design and that is where the similarity ends.

Best,
Sead

Do not "wiggle" or turn the connector while it is in the jack. Simply pull it out and then turn it and then re-insert it. First, though, pull out the connector that is working and look at the orientation of the wire. Then turn the other connector to match this orientation.

The designer, told my friend that the material that is used to make the connector does not store any electrical charge like ordinary plastic. And it is designed to create a single point of contact. A harder material may not work as well.

If all else fails use the Eichmann bullet connectors.

Thanks DK, I'll give it another go with the extra loop on the center post, I hope this will solve my problem. I'm almost too embarassed to ask this, but just to make certain the cable should go from white to white and from black to black, right?
As far as the speaker cable is concerned, I really have enjoyed going back and listening to my favorite recordings with it installed. I don't speak fluent audiophile, but what I have observed is that trebly type instruments (*especially* horns) have more of the edge that they have in real life. More important, though, is that everything just seems to be 'faster'. It's hard not to tap my feet and even super droning ambient type music (Yo La Tengo's latest effort or anything by the American Anolog Set, for example) seems more vibrant and alive. Admitedly the cable I replaced was nothing special (Tributaries copper and silver coated copper braid) but this was as significant for me as replacing my PSB's with Triangles. Associated equip: Ah Tjoeb 4000 into Jolida 302A via Tributatries interconnect, into the Stratos, into Triangle Zephyrs. Actually, if you're familiar with the Triangle line of speakers I think that this cable does well what I like about those speakers.

Raguirre: You are doing better than I did in the beginning (I wasted over 35 feet of the OTA) and to date have broken 5 of the white center posts. As far as the center post goes, you can try adding another loop or two around the white post. This will give you more of a chance of making a good solid contact. When you install the center (white) post just press it all of the way into the female RCA and then pull out ever so slightly. This has always worked for me and I have used the IC's with at least six different pieces of equipment so far. The black (outside) part of the RCA should not have any trouble making contact, but if you feel that it is too loose then do a double loop (through the small hole on the side) before going back through the longer channel/hole. I have noticed that the female RCA's on different gear do vary a bit as far as the fit goes and these two slight deviations regarding the assembly of the IC's should do the trick. I do wish that 47 Labs would redesign the center post to make is stronger as it is structurally very weak where the cross hole goes through the shaft (or @ the least offer free replacements of the center post) but other than this I have no complaints about this product and am looking forward to your further comments once you remedy the contact problems you are experiencing.

Please help. I got the Stratos kit about three weeks ago and immediately set up the speaker wires. My observations were pretty close to everyone here (boy, do horns sound good now), and I have made firm believers out of a few cable doubters (including, to a certain degree, myself). I must, however, be the biggest idiot in the world as I can't seem to get the interconnects together. I have assembled a pair (actually a pair and a half) and with a little 'wiggling' of the plugs can get one channel to fire. When I try to hook up the other channel, I can't get any sound at all despite all the 'wiggling' and repositioning that I try. Now it's not simply the run of interconnect or the terminals as I can switch the cables or switch the channels and can almost always get one channel to work. I've already broken one of the machined white pieces and have about two feet in scrap on the floor and I'm at my wits end. At this point, I really wish there was an option for the mechanically idiotic to have the interconnects pre-assembled.

Haven't looked at this thread in while and forgive me if Trelja in his usual thoroughness addressed this, but- be careful when you use these solvents. Most of them are easily absorbed thru the skin, and the vapors I believe are also dangerous (in terms of toxicity and flammability). Working outdoors for all of you California types may be an answer, but the really low boiling point products evaporate so quickly that you have to be careful. Probably not a big problem if you are dipping them into a gallon can, but be very careful about ventilation, open flames (including pilot lights for you basement experimenters) etc. I apologize if this has all been gone over before, or if my chemistry is too hazy (too much recreational chemistry along with my organic chem when I was in college, I'm ashamed to admit), but I do remember problems with paint stripper and other furniture refinishers which are mostly organic solvents like MEK and acetone, toluene, and the like. Your speakers won't sound to good if either they or your brain are (is?) fried. Have fun.

I just discovered that the "Teflon" tape that I tried on the XLO wire is not Teflon (per the local hardware store). I went there to get another roll and discovered this. The Teflon tape that I just purchased has no adhesive (which is better for our needs) and it was very inexpensive ($1.50 a roll). I will just fasten it @ the ends with a small piece of adhesive tape when I try wrapping the wire again.

Gray: You are welcome. Perhaps you can take take the magnet wire further than I have @ this point as I never got around to trying a reverse wrap (tacky side out) of Teflon plumbers tape on it. You could also follow up with a second wrap with the tacky side in. I will not have the bedroom system (where I like to play around with things like this) up and running for another month myself and will probably start by experimenting with a vintage tube amp that I just picked up instead of fooling with cables. In any regard, I look forward to your findings. What I did find about this wire is that it sounded better to me a single runs (instead of twisted pairs).

Dekay and Caterham, thank you for your reasoned replies to my rather provocative comment. As I rather enjoy experimenting with cables, I will try your suggestion Dekay.

Gray: I don't know if this is true, but once read that the OTA is a type of cable which is used for telecommunications in Japan, which has received some type of additional treatment. The only thing that I know is that I have been unable to locate a ready made cable that has the extremely thick Teflon insulation that the OTA uses and to purchase such insulation separately is not an inexpensive undertaking, plus I would have no way to properly run a six nines copper wire through this insulation without leaving a major air gap (which the OTA does not have). I have already tried "beefing up" the thin Teflon insulation on the XLO cable with a reverse wrap of Teflon plumbers tape without much success. My advice is that if you are not ready to spring $600 then try out the inexpensive Radio Shack solid core copper magnet wire in order to get a "taste" of what the OTA will sound like. The spool runs $3.99 and it contains three different gages (30,26 and I forget the lower gage). I prefer the 26 gage, but some also like the lower gage (so try both). Carefully remove the laquer from the ends of the wire with fine steel wool and then hook it up as speaker cable. It will take it 100 hours or so for the sound to stabilize. Since the laquer coating is questionable, IMO, I did make certain to separate the (+ & -) runs from each other when installing it to avoid the possibility of a short taking place. This is a single run cable and two runs will be required for each speaker (that is not bi-wired). If your cable runs are 10' of so there should be enough wire (of each gage) on a single spool. I used the RS cable in an inexpensive SS system with very good results (a bit of the OTA sound), but to be honest will not hesitate to rewire this setup with the OTA once I can afford another kit.

Gray,
The first 2/3rds of this thread chronicalled very closely several AG members making this "act of faith" and detailed quite eloquently their findings on the 47Labs OTA cables/IC kit.
I've been using the 47 OTA's in Roksan and Rega systems for over 1-1/2 yrs now and continue to be impressed and satisfied.
My own positive experience has resulted in a number of friends switching away from their former cable faves to the OTA in systems as diverse as Audiomat,VTL and CJ valves to Exposure and Rowland systems with equally fine results.
Considering that 47Labs does not promote the OTA other than as an recommended adjunct to their own electronics with no advertising of the cables at all,I'd say that the number of non-47 Lab users here at AG exceeds what would be expected for such a product and that they also appear to be exceptionally enthusiastic and pleased.

I take your point - it is a bit of a "cart and horse" situation, where many people, like me, are waiting for others to commit "the act of faith". However, having said that, silver cables were in the same boat at one time. But there are now many, relatively cheap, "copycat" manufacturers for these cables today, reflecting the intrinsic value of this type of cable and rewarding those who were prepared to commit this act of faith.

Gray: The only way to be "convinced" is to actually try and/or listen to this product (the design of which goes against the grain of what most people assume is needed for quality sound). Because of these assumptions many feel that it is not worth $600 for a roll of 26 gage solid core copper/Teflon cable and a few plastic RCA's. Having tried other 26 gage Teflon coated cable I do not assume, but know that they are not the same (the last being XLO's product). What exactly are you looking for - a new slew of product owner's of which you will believe their observations? LOL.

"Has anyone tried this "minimalist" cable kit? After receiving a recommendation from someone with similar musical values to myself, and whose ears I trust, I could not resist ordering one. I will report on how they sound in a few weeks, but am interested in others' opinions too."
by Redkiwi on 05-21-01
I have followed this thread for several months now. As someone who greatly believes in the influence of cables, hence my interest in this site and continual efforts at upgrading, I am not at all convinced by the exchanges, or the experiences, shared. Why haven't more people tried this cable? Can we get back to Redkiwi's original question?

Trelja, thank you for your meticulous & thorough directions. I've made an off-line copy for reference!
And thank you for the offer -- unfortunately I live too far away to take you up on it!
Happy hols!
Cheers, and I'll keep you posted when I get down to it; I am going to try this!

Not a dumb question at all, Greg.

Yes, if the wires are presently coated, if you wanted to evaluate the sound of using lacquer insulation(and ONLY lacquer), the currently polymer coating would need to be removed.

I would attempt to clean the bare wire in either lacquer thinner, MEK(methyl ethyl ketone), or acetone(dimethyl ketone, or methyl methyl ketone). Actually, all three are fairly close to each other. Acetone and MEK are both ketones, and close in size, so their functionality and use is almost identical. Acetone has a lower boiling point(so it will evaporate a bit faster), due to it being a bit smaller. And, acetone is a good bit less toxic. Lacquer thinner is something along the lines of a mix of the two(maybe other ketones - like MIBK - ketones will all work more or less the same), with the addition of aliphatic and/or aromatic hydrocarbons(maybe toluene, xylene, stoddard solvent, etc. - I apologize for not know the formulation right off the top of my head...).

I don't think a hydrocarbon buys you anything in this situation, so you are probably better off just going with acetone in the first place. Hydrocarbons will not do anything to things like PVC, polypropylene, polyurethane, teflon, polyethyelene, or polyester(PET[PETE] or PBT). A hydrocarbon would simply be a latent(nonfunctional) solvent in this case.

After stripping and cleaning in solvent, if you notice that whatever residue(if there was any in the first place) from the wire is getting removed or becomes gummy, you are on the right track. Contrary to a bad thing, the residue becoming gummy means you have hit the nail on the head. You have found a solvent capable of attacking the polymer you want to remove. You could then leave the wire in that solvent for as long as it takes to remove everything. Going back every so often to manually remove that residue.

Let's hope that just stripping does the trick, and no residue remains.

Since we are hot on the trail of the meticulous Kondo - san, we might as well discuss things to a very minute point. After stripping the wire, it will need to be prepared. I would recommend going over the bare wire with 0000 steel wool. I believe he was the first to dicuss a wire's surface, and its effect on sonics. The better the surface, the better the sound(it's actually the main focus of the new AudioQuest line). As there is oil in the steel wool, cleaning off with the acetone, MEK, lacquer thinner previously discussed.

You are now ready for the lacquer coating. Although I know the importance of sanding between coats(from my furniture finishing), I would suggest trying this(at least on a test wire, before you do the whole project) without any between coat sanding. Sanding with a paper from 220 to 600 grit or even 0000 steel wool is meant to abrade the coating; providing more surface area for the next coat to adhere to(thus making the bond stronger).

However, that abrasion may well serve as your enemy in this case. Sanding always leaves a fair amount of the bare material exposed. Exactly what we are trying to avoid here. We are trying to form an insulation on the wire. I am not so sure that we want to remove a lot of the insulation each time we apply a coat of lacquer.

Conversely, this may be the method employed by Audio Note. And the explanation of the adherence to using 7 coats of lacquer. As I stated before, my guess(from prior experience) is that three coats would begin to provide an insulation with no holes.

If you wanted to test with a multimeter or ohmeter, set for resistance measurement. Then, you could simply attach one lead to one the bare ends of the wire. Test the wire at various points along the insulation. If the reading stays open, you have an insulator. If you are able to measure something, current is able to flow from the wire through your lacquer coating. In this situation, I would always add two to three additional coats of lacquer. The lower the resistivity reading, the worse the insulation.

A note of caution, make sure that as the number of layers are built up, the coating is not stiff enough to crack. This would mean that the insulation becomes useless. But, as we have already established that people are using lacquer to coat wires, it should not be a problem.

By the way, if you(or anyone for that matter - first come, first served) are really interested in pursuing this, I have a quart of Deft Clear Wood Finish that I would be happy to give to anyone who wants it. This is a great product, a brushable nitrocellulose lacquer. Being brushable means that it has higher solids than a sprayable lacquer; hence each coat would be thicker. Solids content is 25% +/- 1%.

Solids content is related to your dried coating thickness. A coating with 25% solids would yield a dried film twice as thick as one with 12.5% solids. Thus, half as many layers would need to achieve the same final film.

I used a bit in testing on wood(very nice indeed), but decided to go with acrylic for my application. So, if anyone wants it... Others may pick this up a KMart or Lowe's. I believe it was around $10 for a quart.

GOOD LUCK!

Thanks, Trelja. So the trick is (pls forgive the dumb question) to strip the teflon -- or whatever -- outer & dip the bared wire shielding & conductors into the can & then hang the IC by the terminators. I could lightly sand the dried coating, clean, and re-dip, and once more. My ohmetre is the standard digital type -- but could I try some readings?
Cheers

Greg, thanks for getting involved.

These additives that I saw were all low boiling(fast evaporating) solvents, other than the phtalate which was listed(would serve as the plasticizer).

The ingredients I recall(other than the nitrocellulose and plascticizer) were things like toluene, xylene, MIBK(methyl isobutyl ketone, etc. Most of these would all probably not be around more than a day, two at the most(assuming room temperature or above). I can look up the boiling point of MIBK to see how long it should persist, but I don't think it's very long.

I think that long term the only thing that chemically would be altered is the evaporation of the plasticizer, which could be deterred by coating the lacquer with something else. But, this evaporation could theoretically alter properties over the coming years. The evaporation would be along the lines of what we witness in speaker cones or surrounds drying out. It's the same thing; plasticizer evaporation.

I would advise dipping rather than brushing. Especially, in light of this product dealing with interconnects. Dipping is so easy, and the film formed would be much more homogeneous, pinhole free, and sonically consistent from cable to cable.

Brushing is inconsistent, especially layer to layer. I don't believe one could ever have two layers that were more or less the same. Much less, one part of the wire as opposed to the other.

Simply dip the wire in the gallon can. Remove it, and hang to dry. That's it. Following the manufacturer's advice on dry time, you can then dip the wire for the next coat.

If you have access to a magnifying glass or microscope, you can look at the film with a more crital eye. An ohmeter is the way to make sure that you have gotten to where you need to be, but it's difficult with wire. Basically, your goal is to keep applying layers until the resistance goes to open. Conversely, a low resistance indicates the flow of electrons is still occurring, and that we are still working with a resistor. A good capacitor has not been created. A capacitor is what we are trying to build here.

As I said, it is tough to do with a thin gauge wire...

My opinion is that after three coats, we should have a capacitor. In other words, a pinhole free film. One in which no electron flow can take place.

So, Trelja, would it be that the additives evaporating contribute to instruments becoming better with time -- at least to a minor degree?
I'm thinking of trying lacquer on a pair of I/C -- could it work using a brush rather than dipping?

Cheers

Thanks to all for making this an interesting conversation.

I too, have wondered a lot about interconnects and dielectric. Often, the "truths" are passed on to us, and we have not much opportunity to let our ears decide. Unlike other classic arguments in our hobby, it is harder to really ferret out what is going on here. Look at our own site. Here we debate things like tubes, transistor, digital, analog, copper, silver, floorstander, and monitor. But, what about lac, nitrocellulose, acrylic, urethane, polyester, polypropylene, vinyl, PVC, PVDF, and teflon?

Harder to get a handle on. Even harder to find people who have can offer much in the way of substantive information. I profess my own lack of understanding when it comes to whether a K dielectric is preferable to a low K. And, does each lend a certain sonic signature? I would love to know. A low disapation factor is a good thing, but that is a truth for most conversations regarding capacitance.

I agree that the BS detectors must be on high alert, as perpetually exists any number of people who claim to have the truth, and offer it for a price. Often, in actuality they know little more than us. Selling a completely contradictory thing the next time we look.

As far as the chemical side goes, if I can offer anything of value, I would be honored. Being a coatings chemist was a wonderful job, and gave me accidental exposure to so many things I never foresaw.

One comment about additives, I would not consider them significant in terms of dielectric performance. Most of what would be included in a formulation will not be around very long, due to the fact that they are driven off via evaporation. For a coating of this type, it's basically the polymer, the flatting agent I previously mentioned, and any plasticizers(which also eventually evaporate) the formulator would include.

We have already discussed the polymers.

The flatting agent was also mentioned. It would normally be silica, in the neighborhood of 0.25% - 1.0%, so I would say we can declare it insignificant. Anyway, my feeling is that in this application, there would not be any flatting agent in the recipe in the first place.

A plasticizer is simply a very, very high boiling solvent which makes a resin softer than it normally is. Many plastics(the resin, or polymer as I keep calling it) are hard and brittle. But, their use in the field is required, and the need is for them to be soft and/or flexible. Hence the plasticizer. These chemicals are normally of the pthalate family. I would need to open a book to see their chemical structure to determine whether they would increase or decrease capacitance. However, they too, would be of a low concentration.

A word on lacquers before the topic goes away. I was in The Home Depot last night, picking up a few quarts of Minwax acrylic, when I noticed that there is a very reasonably priced(downright cheap) nitrocellulose based lacquer that they carry. Something like $30 for a gallon. In checking out the label, I noticed that the entire formulation was printed on the back(the information age point of my prior submission). It made me think of this thread, and that if anyone was interested in trying this lacquer technique, this product seemed ideal. My memory of what I read showed me nothing that would preclude it from being used in the manner described above. If anyone was interested, I could revisit the store with a more thorough eye, and read the ingredient list again.

The cable could simply dipped in the can, removed, and allowed to air dry. A bit of heat would speed drying, although more pinholes might be possible. Lacquers tend to be some of the fastest drying coatings anyway(due to their low boiling solvents - which this product contains), so the suggestion might be moot.

From what I have always read about Kondo-san, he may well be using the lac based variety of lacquer. It is a traditional Japanese treasure, and he has always seemed to fit that mold. Doing things meticulously. An artist as much as an engineer. Concerned about things most others do not even consider. Using materials of a more "organic" type and feel.

Some of the "rules" for applying this lacquer may be good, some may just be ritual. One that comes to mind is that if seven layers is good, why not use eight? Does it not sound as good, have we reached the point of diminishing returns, or is seven just good? I can offer that a pinhole free(microscopically, hence electrically) film is probably not reached until perhaps the third coat. It's just the nature of most coatings.

I can also say that in working with lacquer(in my home remodel), more layers are better. From my own experiences with furniture, going past 7 or 8 starts to get me where I wanted to be. Conventionally, products tell us to use about 3 coats. I didn't get the look I wanted. But, I accidentally ran into someone who knows about furniture, and she told me that 20 coats is often what is needed. So, I experimented with more and more layers, up to 20. I can honestly say that things get better, but you reach a point of the ridiculous. Diminishing returns, big time. As I said, I just did this for experimentation. Sure, I would love for the furniture I am currently working on to look like it did with 20 coats of lacquer, but there is no way I would ever be able to apply that many to all the pieces I am currently working on.

And, incidentally, because of the increased resistance to the day to day, I opted for polyurethane or acrylic over lacquer. And, because I am working with maple and value the pristine color, I ended up going for acrylic. It forms a water white(crystal clear) film. Polyurethane usually adds a honey hue, which I sometimes like on oak. My only regret is that I now have to buy this stuff, whereas I used to make it.

Trelja,

I feel the need to thank you for participating in the discussion on lacquers. I think it is a valuable contribution.

Listening to you speaking is almost like listening to my lacquer specialist and I mean it in a very positive way as this guy is an old and very experienced "wolf".

On the negative side, I feel the same professional “one applies to all” approach, disregard to audio being a rather peculiar and specific application. At least that was the problem that I had with my people until I managed to sat them down and offer them to actually hear (and not just see, what was their professional focus throughout their complete careers) the differences in variances of their own work.

Of course there is a lot of marketing rubbish (like in every other aspect of life) but the fact remains, at least in my personal experience, that lacquer has a strong importance on sonic behaviour of a product (in this particular case, loudspeaker). I am not an expert on lacquers and my findings are strictly limited to the empirical auditive conclusions that were drawn from different samples prepared by those knowledgeable on the subject on my request for specific samples.

It is interesting that (and I guess that corresponds to your statement) certain additives in recipes affect the visual appeal more than sonics yet the technique applied and number of layers (viscosity of each; thickness; application; drying method and some other) do have a strong impact on the mechanical (thus auditive as a logical consequence to the resonant) characteristics of the "coating".

Some additives can affect the dielectric characteristics of a lacquer but there I really don't have sufficient experience to discuss on the subject.

In any case, we are talking nuances here (rubbish speakers remain rubbish, regardless) but nuances make the accountable difference. Not to be mistaken - some nuances human ear and brain can perceive with more precision than the most sophisticated measuring equipment.

Best,
Sead

Wow, Trelja, that's great stuff. For future reference, gentlemen, THAT'S substantitive. Thank you, I learned something I didn't know.

I just wish I'd kept up the Japanese my neighbour used to teach me! Anyone know of a Japanese-English translator on the web?

Telephone wire, huh? Hmmmmm.

Justin

In the years following WWII, a lot of the mysteries of the world have lost some of their secret status. Coatings being one.

In a previous company, where I learned the craft, the sacredness of a formulation was an important thing. To the point where a many a recipe consisted of tens, if not hundreds, of ingredients.

Questions concerning these ingredients(along the lines of "eye of newt") would often be answered by something being a "masking agent". In other words, something that would throw off anyone who tried to copy it. These were often things like peppermint, rosemary, lavender oil, etc. It was also suggested that some things were added to make the smell of the product more agreeable.

All in all, a lot of my work was spent on revising the formulations. Stripping all of the unnecessary elements out, in order to leave only what was essential. In every case I can think of, the products were only improved. In the information age, it was not such a priority to hide a formulation, as a base recipe(which would work well) could be acquired with tremendous ease. Marketing and the company itself became more important than what went into the can.

In a general sense, lacquer is lacquer. One of two more "traditional" ingredients which would be included in a lacquer.

Lac, the resin from the plant native to Asia is the classic base of lacquer. Hence the name. And, the reason that lacquer was a product of cultures such as Japan, China, Vietnam, Thailand, Burma, and India.

The other is the more modern nitrocellulose. The ingredient found in most of the "real" lacquers of today.

One of these polymers would be dissolved in a solvent(often a hydrocarbon from the less environmentally conscious days such as toluene, xylene, etc.) to make the coating we refer to as lacquer. These formulations are very, very simple. In addition to the polymer and solvent, a leveling agent(various) might be added to promote a smooth finish(as opposed to orange peel), and perhaps also a flatting(silica powder) agent to reduce gloss if a satin finish is desired.

Products would differ from company to company in the ratio of polymer to solvent, as well as things like leveling agents employed.

Also, there are brushable and sprayable lacquers. Brushable laquers have a higher polymer to solvent ratio. On the order of 24 - 27% solids(polymer). Whereas sprayable lacquers would contain a higher percentage of solvent, in order to ease sprayability, vis a vis lower viscosity.

More recently, the word lacquer has been bastardized to include polyurethane, acrylic, etc. formulations; just a name given to a clear topcoat used for these purposes to convey a sense of high quality of the product.

Presuming that two products consisted of the same polymer(be it lac or nitrocellulose), were both targeting the same application(brushable or sprayable) process, and were of high enough quality to ensure a smooth, pinhole free coating, not much difference should ever exist between them.

Just re-read my earlier post so as not to be redundant.

Anyway, Mr. Kimura, designer of the 47 Labs products, said that the OTA cable is based on telephone wire. He said that his goal as a designer was to reproduce acoustic music not rock or synthesized music. He reasoned that since telephone wires go on for miles yet preserved the tonal quality of one's voice he felt it would help him attain his goal. The wire is made in Japan by a company that makes telephone wire.

As to the exact process I do not know exactly how it is done. However, Mr. Kimura always looks for the simplest ways to do things; the components he uses are common off the shelf items not custom made, but he is very specific as to how to implement them. And I would suspect that no voodoo/black magic is involved in the making of the cable. I suppose the reason for the high cost, about a dollar a foot, is because it is made in smaller runs with his logo on the jacket. You should see the power cord wire that he gave my friend.

One final note, there are many websites in Japan that are dedicated to copying Mr. Kimura's designs and even on how to improve them. If you have access to a computer with Japanese windows/browser and can read Japanese you should check them out. They probably have many lower cost alternatives that are better than the Sakura cable (Japanese audiophiles are absolutely fanatical, and have clubs that meet weekly. The difference between us and them is that they like modifying things internally; they'll take a portable cd player that runs on AA batteries and turn it into a world beater!).

I will try to comment on the recent posts in one, just to save the bandwith, if you don't mind.

»… if Stratos is just OFC, that any other decent OFC from a reputable supplier, cannot be used in its place?«

Justin, nobody said other cable can't be used instead of Stratos. It is a matter of preference and majority seems just to like it better than other variants of the same type of cable.

»Is it cold-treated, annelaed in some way, a mono-crystal filament, or an alloy of some kind?«

Of course it is cold treated and of course it is mono-crystal, I could not imagine a good cable done other way. It is also natural that it has been annleaded through a process that makes it OFC (there are different levels of purity as you know). It is also very important to stress out that it is not just lead that makes impurities in copper. Quite often, one of the impurities in copper are gold and ferrite. Could be some more but these greatly affect the color of copper as well as they increase the elasticity of copper. Have you noticed how brittle OFC copper is?

No alloy. It would negate the whole purpose of getting copper as impurity free as possible. A tiny portion of brass maybe wouldn't be a bad thing, just as a spice, hehehe. No, I don't think there is anything but copper in there. I have not done any spectrometric observation that could scientifically backup my claim but I have no intention whatsoever of looking into the subject from the scientific point of view (I am not a scientist and besides that I only care how it sounds, not breaking my head too much over too many why – I have realised long time ago that we are just tapping the surface of the great sea…)

»Has it secretly been treated with C37 lacquer or some such potion?«

No, I can assure you that we don't treat our shelf and/or demo products chemically or in any other way.

That doesn't mean we don't have our little secrets but none of them, again, are not applied as a treatment to freshly made products.

47Labs, however, has a product that is marketed in Japan only due to it's high price for an accessory (originally it was intended for dealers) and that thing does demagnetizing of different »things« on a permanent basis (records, CD's, cables, turntable parts etc). Anything that fits in there goes and makes quite some difference as I have been told – I have not tried it yet but I hope to when the finances allow.

Also, it is a matter of a culture and prestige among artisans in Japan and each of them has some secret potion. 47Labs is no excuse to it but, again, it is something strictly for a personal use, none of the dealers have even heard or seen this thing. Well, even I have only found out about it when I got a small bottle as a personal gift, not before.

»Thanks for your reply Sead. I hope everyone's differences can be resolved soon (or better still, put to bed), so more useful discussion can take place.«

Differences are ok. If we all would agree on everything, this world would be a boring place to live in.

***********

»What is C37 lacquer, as opposed to other lacquer?«

Asa, there are many, many kinds of lacquer receipes known (or better yet, kept as very important secrets) throughout the history. Even now, experts can only guess the exact proportions used by the old violin makers or by the famous piano makers, also the ways of application etc. Too much unknown.

C37 is some kind of modern receipe only today Enemmoser got the marketing idea that was unknown in the 18th and 19th century – not to use it for a product but to make it the product as such. Coming from Vienna where the tradition of lacquer receipe making is a »national sport«, it must be that he had great fun exploring on how to make it. I have my guesses on basic elements used for C37 but I would rather avoid speculating. In any case, the additions to lacquer affect the mechanical characteristics after and during the drying process and all the way through aging of it.

So, lacquer per se is just a lacquer. Okie, there are several kinds of it but nevertheless. What you add to it, how you apply it, how many layers you apply (and their interaction indicates the need for different thickness and application method as well) makes hell of a difference. It is a painfull process but since I have tried to mimic instrument making proces opposed to just a design of a speaker in my Essence speaker I simply had to do some experimenting and to try to dig deeper into different kinds of lacquers. By no means I imply that I have achieved anything important, yet the approach has a certain positive offset from the traditional way of thinking about speakers.

»AudioNote Kondo also uses a similar lacquering process on their similarly thin conductor, bare wire term'd speaker cables -a procedure they call "tinning", applied in seven coats - and many of the observations here of the Sakura wire are very similar to my own reactions to the AudioNote stuff. My understanding from AudioNote is that this lacquering process is critical to the sound of the wire relative to issues of wire composition or configuration. Connection?«

There is a connection. Not in the lacquer but the in the understanding of the fact that dielectric (and it's mechanical interaction with conductor) is as important as the conducting material in a cable. Material used as dielectric in Stratos has as we call it »self-lubricating« characteristics, thus there is no need to treat it in some special way – dielectric itself does the thing.

Btw, the cable in question is 47Laboratory cable. Sakura Systems is 47Labs distributor in US of A. I know, 47Labs sounds so… western… and Sakura sounds so… eastern.

******

»I recently received the Super Cables Cookbook from Vacuum State Electronics, in which Allen mentions that he now instinctively reaches for C37 lacquer when finishing his cables. In fact, a colleague of mine in the UK-based Audiocircle has mentioned that, in preference to foil designs, he was to try ultra-thin cable with this type of lacquer.«

Say hello to Allen from me. He is quite a nice guy.

Speaking of ultra-thin cables, I still have not found the wire for my tonearm that I would say »yeah, that's it«. Any suggestions for a tryout?

»As I write this, things are starting to click into place ... 'Chemical X' (thankyou Dexter) is appearing slowly out of the fog of my ignorance. If sound can be considered (in electronics) a type of electrical shockwave why not tune it in the way master luthiers did in days gone by?«

This electrical has also a mechanical aspect to it. So, yes, I say, let's tune it into some music. :-)

Cheers,
Sead

p.s. Justin how have you been? Haven't hear from you in ages. How is London?

I recently received the Super Cables Cookbook from Vacuum State Electronics, in which Allen mentions that he now instinctively reaches for C37 lacquer when finishing his cables. In fact, a colleague of mine in the UK-based Audiocircle has mentioned that, in preference to foil designs, he was to try ultra-thin cable with this type of lacquer.

As I write this, things are starting to click into place ... 'Chemical X' (thankyou Dexter) is appearing slowly out of the fog of my ignorance. If sound can be considered (in electronics) a type of electrical shockwave why not tune it in the way master luthiers did in days gone by?

Justin

Justin

What is C37 lacquer, as opposed to other lacquer? AudioNote Kondo also uses a similar lacquering process on their similarly thin conductor, bare wire term'd speaker cables -a procedure they call "tinning", applied in seven coats - and many of the observations here of the Sakura wire are very similar to my own reactions to the AudioNote stuff. My understanding from AudioNote is that this lacquering process is critical to the sound of the wire relative to issues of wire composition or configuration. Connection?

Stratos and ordinary OFC. I stress again; I've heard this system and loved it, but don't understand why, if Stratos is just OFC, that any other decent OFC from a reputable supplier, cannot be used in its place?

Is it cold-treated, annelaed in some way, a mono-crystal filament, or an alloy of some kind? Has it secretly been treated with C37 lacquer or some such potion?

Thanks for your reply Sead. I hope everyone's differences can be resolved soon (or better still, put to bed), so more useful discussion can take place.

Justin

14. Commit all of the errors you ascribe to others as you are listing them.

15. Still don't add anything substantive as you commit error no. 14.

16. Hope that no one ever calls you on your lack of substantive contribution, and, if exposed, that you can blame others by listing a list.

Hi,

47Labs cable is not aged.

It's performance over time is comparable to other modern high quality cables, meaning that it will last without degradation pretty long but not forever as it is the case even with the cables their manufacturers may claim to be eternal.

Surprisingly for cable of this diameter, with insulation on, it is taking user brutality quite well, although I would not suggest really strong bending. I am telling this from experience as I do abuse it on a regular basis.

Cable burners will not damage it - I use it as mains cable (which doesn't mean that anyone should do the same!). Will cable burner make it sound better than when burned in with a real music signal is another issue.

It is a commercial product and, as such, it is continually produced. Of course, 47Labs can take it out of production if they desire to do so but to my knowledge, there are no plans that they could do something like that.

I've been using this cable for something like 3 years now and, except for the addition of blue translucent color, it has been consistent in production and quality.

On the user side, with exception of the slight fade of that blue color that occurs over time and a minor capilar oxidation close to cable ends, I have not noticed degradation in the performance of 3 years old cable compared to freshly burned in. Of course this period may not be sufficent time for a serious assessment of cable longevity but I hope to be around in years to come and I can report on how things are coming.

Best,
Sead

I've been monitoring the discussion here for a while now, and have also heard a basic 47 Labs digital/amplification system.

Can anyone share their thoughts on the following: How is the Stratos copper cable actually made? Is it aged in any way? Can its inherent qualities be damaged by poor handling, cable-burners and the like, or other environmental factors? Is it a finite source our is it continually manufactured?

Many thanks to all who respond.

jusbe

How to kill a web forum discussion?

1. Ignore the poster who initiated it. Especially if he has a very precise question targeted at a particular group of people. (How does he dare? Who does he think he is? I will teach him some respect. Oh mama, I am soooo kewl).

2. Ignore the warnings of the forum administrators to keep your replies to the subject of the thread. (What does these pathetic creatures know? Are they nuts? I will write what I want when I want. Mama, mama, I am soooo strong)

3. Don’t keep it on the subject. Be creative, impose your own. (You guys know nothing. I will teach you. Boy, am I smart or am I smart)

4. Insult. As much and as often. It will raise your popularity. After all, you are powerful, knowledgeable and …. handsome. (Hey I am a well known and respected member of readers letters column in TAS and Ultimate Audio, not to mention my subscription to Stereophile. I’ve managed to buy out 10% of the magazine circulation, so I have lots of arguments in hardcopy. It was expensive but it was worth it, I can tell you)

5. Troll. Often. After all, administrators will not dare to touch you. You are the untouchable one. (mama, look I am getting the wings)

6. Be democratic – kill anyone who would even consider not agreeing with you. (yes, I am righteous)

7. Treat those you like with passion – approach them in a diminishing manner. Don’t they know they are there because of me? (mama, look at my body – I am a walking sculpture)

8. Lie. Even better if you get it on a personal level. Make promises you have no intention to keep. Show off with powers you don’t possess. That will mask your obvious commercial interests that you have.

9. Tell everyone how smart you are. Some may buy it. The rest will get angry but considering your general powers, you shouldn’t care. (mama, I am sooo good looking)

10. Attack before being attacked. Send threatening e-mails to everyone who would even dare to say a word. (someone’s got to teach you lessons, you…you… you….)

11. If someone asks you something, just anything, ignore him. Tell people about your new flashy preamplifier. (you pathetic loosers will never have my new flashy preamplifier)

12. Numerous aliases come handy when you need someone to support your thoughts. Who could understand you better than yourself? Who loves you more than yourself? So, use many names, the more the better.

13. Use other people’s arguments as your own. Confuse the opponent. Let them think you are stupid. You know you are the smartest thing. Not to mention how handsome you are. You are the babe and don’t let anyone question that.

Only when they ask for it, Subaruguru...as you know. How genuine of you to find this discussion and comment.

But, I have a question that I'm really interested in. What is it with these guys who fall onto a discussion from nowhere with holier-than-thou posturing, without anything substantive to add, throwing the emotive-loaded language around in a judgemental manner, and then end it with some type of statement that just (must) reaffirm to us all what a great and compassionate person they are?

Happy Thanksgiving and happy Hannukah and happy Christmas and happy News Years to you too, Subaruguru (the extent of my poetic ability...).

You are right about one thing, though: enough. What you failed to note, however, was that the discussion had ended before you showed up. Which, of course, makes your statements the ones that were unneeded.

I'm going back to the music now...(fade out: cheers from the politically correct crowd).

C'mon, guys...lighten up! Asa, your Zorro-like flashes sting others pretty often, eh? And Sead, I know...ya put in a nickel and he keeps keeps crankin', but please...enough!
It's like everhard all over again. Get it?

A warm and happy Thanksgiving break to all of us....

More names huh, but still no guts. Hmmm...I thought so.

Dear Mark (aka Asa),

I am terribly sorry if I’ve left you with an impression that I have a desire to go into discussion with you because I don’t have any, whatsoever. These days I discuss only with those I find intellectually stimulative and refreshing. Impolite quasi intellectuals and preachers that explode in vanity when touched in their aura as a boring stereotype don’t fit in there, sorry.

Best,
Sead

Sead, don't be a horse's ass. If you think my views are overly biased by rigid assumptions, then please, have the guts and cognitive fortitude to cite them specifically.

Second, you seemed to have missed the point between Slawney and I: we are having FUN! I was joking with him about selling the NBS. I enjoy and respect his opinions and writing. Get it?

As I said, objective parameters are not relative (or did your proffered, alleged disclaimer of a lack of language agility, selectively, get in the way on that one?). But that is another subject - we were specifically discussing subjective criteria. I am a writer and do not have all the bucks in the world, but that does not mean that I make arguments that any opinion other than mine on subjective grounds is impliedly invalid because the means of capitalism dictates a certain value in objective terms. That is a disingenuous argument, and I would proffer, symptomatic of your intent.If you want to discuss whether price is a relative issue, then fine, do so, but don't gratuitously mix it in with some unspecified politically-correct morality. Get it?

If you want to have a cogent dialogue, absent vague, melodramatic references, then go ahead. Otherwise, well, you know...

Bwhite,
When you see the OTA connectors, you'll realise that the principles behind the Bullet plug are taken even further by eliminating the pins completely thru the use of simple but clever plastic pieces which pin the single OTA cable strand directly against the connector without an intermediate pin or solder joins at all.
I don't know which device came first but the only *advantage* of the Bullet over the OTA is that it is applicable to conventional wire configurations & thicknesses rather than dedicated to a specific wire as per the OTA's.

Has anyone tried to use the OTA wire with Eichmann Bullet plugs??

Eichmann website

the best OTA digital cable that I have come up with in the past three months.

members.aol.com/trstrap/ota.jpg (this is a photo of it, just copy and paste)

I take no credit for this configuration (other than the lazy eight half knots:-) as my direction on this cable came from Richard @ Vantage Audio, but on the other hand if it does not meet your greatest expectations upon wasting many precious feet (and inches) of the OTA, then I take full responsibility as this is my adaptation of the basic principals which were graciously supplied to me. The hot lead is 60" in length and the cold lead is 30". Better yet might be lengths of 80" and 40", but I barely had enough cable left to make up phono cables (a work in progress), so I made them 60/30 which is the bare minimum for this design, I am told. The cable is tunable (per my experience) by changing the number and size of the half knots (along with the spacing of them) on the longer lead. The "loops" that I am using are approx. 2" to 3" in diameter, but these are based on my personal taste and my setup (experimentation is advised when using this cable in other systems as nothing is ever easy). The higher the quantity of "half knots" (loops) and the smaller the diameter the tighter the imaging. The drawback is that with this tighter imaging (which is not unlike that of traditional cable), the more closed in the sound becomes (this closed in sound is also similar to that of traditional cable and defeats the "openness" that is the main purpose of using the OTA cable in my system), thus the "wild" look of the cable. I had almost given up on using the OTA as a digital cable until I tried this design (thank you Richard) as I was never able to surpass the sound of the standard Mapleshade Double Helix digital cable that I used before. I have already tried adapting this design to something that would be generally acceptable in appearance, the longer lead being "tightly" coiled around the shorter lead with a tidy Teflon surround enclosing the two (even tried the same with cotton surrounds/insulation between the cables), but the variations all basically sucked as far as the sound went (I am still using the "ugly duckling" cable as pictured). I started off with leads of equal length and then tried staggering the various leads (one being longer and one being shorter). These cables were OK, but no cigar as they did not best the Mapleshade digital cable. Anyway, this is my best effort, so far, as digital cables go and I am very content with the sound.

As far as "contact area" goes, I have only discussed this in the past with Red, Brulee and Kitch. My take is that the smaller the contact area, the better the sound. Wrapping the OTA around a binding post on the amplifier and/or the speaker has a tendency to muck up the sound from the mid bass down, IMO. Making a small contact area by just threading the wire through the hole in a binding post and then tightening down within reason leaves the sound more open in my setup and enhances bass and mid bass bloom. I have also used the OTA as hookup wire (in a TDS Passive Audiophile and once again in this application "less was more" as the best sound came from almost solderless connections (just enough solder to get the job done, as one would use when soldering to a circuit board).

As far as oxidation goes I have been using Kontak (a generous gift from Brulee) with excellent results on everything in my system, including the OTA. However due to the nature of the OTA contacts I find it necessary to redress the ends of the IC's and speaker cables after they have been taken on and off more than 3-4 times as the wire has a tendency to flatten out. I have also broken 3 of the white center posts on the plastic RCA's to date (mainly due to taking them on and off constantly while experimenting with the cable in IC form) and hopefully this will not be a problem when things settle down. I did purchase another set of the RCA's, but since I have broken so many, I have been forced to make a few hard connections on my setup (which bypass the RCA's altogether). I cannot really hear a difference between the hard connection and the OTA RCA connection, though I had thought that I would. This is the only negative aspect that I find of the product and for those who just install the cable (IC's) only to remove them for periodic cleaning (once or twice a year) I do not see this as being a big deal, though additional RCA's may still come in handy if there is a mishap.

On a whole, I love this stuff and with the guidance of "Palmnell", who posted above, (yes, we are a close knit group:-) I hope to knock off a pair of phono IC's next.

James,

1.) oxidation on OTA, views?

It does oxidate, of course, at the ends. It is recommended to clean the ends every 4-6 months with either a specialized audiophile product for copper or just the plain baking soda. Some in excess of the cable just cut off the ends and terminate it again but in that case you should anticipate some extra lenght when making it. Baking soda is ok.

2.) Caig Pro Contact and OTA?

Not the gold one. Other one is fine.

3.) optimal contact surface area between OTA and the RCA input (reduce or increase, effect on sound, dekay please step in)?

Two twists are ok.

4.) OTA and XLR, balanced format (anybody try it)?

Haven't tried it.

5.) OTA and digital (again, dekay).

Yummy.

Best,
Sead

Asa,

The way I see it (forgive me my eventual ignorance that may result from the fact that I am not a native English speaker), you seem to be among the very few in this discussion enslaved by their own matrix, or better yet, the matrix of common mediocre thinking so much overly present in this hobby of ours today. In such case, implying others with some matrixes is.... well, hypocritical.

I know, it is hard to comprehend the logic behind it, it's price tag, it's simplicism and it's sound quality, especially considering the dogmatism of alike. It is perfectly ok and, fortunately, James can afford to have them both. Selling NBS Statement will not prove anything (okie, it would save him some $29.500 in total and would make his room visualy much nicer place to be in but that is not of relevance in this observation as even that would not prove if cable A is better than cable B if such thing as "better" by default exists at all). You may not be aware of it but just comparison of the two proves a lot, at least it does for me.

Best,
Sead

p.s. Do you prefer to value things by their weight or by the price? Or, perhaps by Stereophile rating?
...... I am kidding as I really could not care less which one of those you take as the most relevant criteria. :-))

Slawney, if you're going to do a little cable survey, I would suggest throwing the AudioNote Kondo KSL spkr wires in the mix. I would be interested in your reactions as they, like the OTC, are thin conductor, bare wire approaches. Steve Klein, the US Distributor, is a stand up guy.

Hmmm, do you all think these guys are cryogenically freezing their cables?

Slawney, I would like to add one thing. I get the feeling that you are only using the OTC between the Phono/headphones (headphone amp, assumably) and/or between CD and headphone amp (w/headphones). Its been my experience that the use of cables in these applications is highly variant. For instance, from my TNT/Graham I run a Hovland phono cable and would never use NBS in a phono application, and especially with a head amp and the limited nature of headphones, or at least reach a conclusion in that context. Many times IC's that are stellar performers between source-to-pre-to-amp (the application I have been referring to)simply do not "carry" source signals well. Also, are you listening to the cables through your regular speakers? I am assuming so, because headphones just don't cut it in spatial qualities, the same spatial qialities that the NBS excels at.

Just curious; bounding the parameters, so to speak...

Slawney, fantastic reply! I look forward to the day when you offer your Statements up for sale - but agree with you on the virtues of having both. While I am waiting, I will be using OTA myself. The allure of the OTA (and the poetic effects it has on people) is too much to resist. :)

Bry

It is somewhat strange to consider the sale of my NBS Statements to B white as objective proof of the success of an empirical cable experiment (a poet, empirical?:-), since the crucial thing to bear in mind is that with the NBS Statement AND the 47 labs OTA I have at my disposal TWO possibilities by means of which I am able to radically alter my relationship to music at will. Besides, the Statements are needed on account of the fact that I do not yet have enough OTA to outfit my entire system, and now must make do with an NBS/47 combination, with the OTA now carrying the signal from the PhonoCube to the STAX headphone unit, and the phono cable remaining NBS (before, during the 400 hour break-in, OTA was "performing solo" between a CD integrated and the STAX). Once the OTA kit comes from Japan (and the European 47 Labs distributor called me tonight to reassure me that it is indeed coming, thank you) you will bear witness to the results of far more radical and through-going OTA experiments, "incorporations" of OTA that will thoroughly invalidate the warranties of at least two of my components (Sead can probably guess one of these projects if he reflects back on the schematic of my power amp...). If the OTA fails to live up to its promise, imagine my despair at not being able to hook up my NBS Statements again to make contact with my "other enjoyment" because I sold the Statements to B white who is perversely enjoying them (along with his brand new Audiomeca Mephisto II) thousands of miles away from me in the USA. Nevertheless, I somehow have a hunch that I may want to sell the Statements after the OTA kit arrives (as a matter of fact, I DID sell off some NBS cables here in Germany after OTA arrived, but these were not Statements: just KS, Signature, Master, but still...); consequently, I will make a promise: if, in spite of my love for NBS, the 47 Labs OTA kit renders the NBS superfluous, I will e-mail B white (don't worry, I already have your e-mail address from our previous correspondence) my offer to sell him my Statements (there are 9 of them, but do not hold your breath, because the experiments will take some time ...). For all of you others, this excessive gesture is made out of pragmatic utilarianism to clear away any disruptive, impertinent posts that might upset the very normal, balanced field of exchanges by which we have tried to perfect our understanding of the OTA Cable Kit. To show you how much I want to submit once again to the rationality of facts, a few enquiries: 1.) oxidation on OTA, views? 2.) Caig Pro Contact and OTA? 3.) optimal contact surface area between OTA and the RCA input (reduce or increase, effect on sound, dekay please step in)? 4.) OTA and XLR, balanced format (anybody try it)? 5.) OTA and digital (again, dekay).