SACD Player Shootout


I had previously started a thread regarding break-in time for my new Ayre C-5xe. There is background here:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=221046&highlight=Mike+Currie&r=&session=

The comparison took place this past Saturday. 14 people ended up attending this shootout. I think everyone had a great time. I know that I did.

Conditions and Associated Gear: All players were placed on a modified rack and powered up on the night prior to the contest. They were not powered down at any time. A pair of 6’ Jena Labs Symphony RCA-terminated interconnects was used, and, as per Charles Hansen’s suggestion, the same preamp input was utilized for each player (i.e. the swap was made only at the outputs of the player under review). Associated gear consisted of my own primary system – Aesthetix Janus, Parasound JC-1s, Sound Lab A-1s, Acoustic Zen Silver Ref II balanced ICs between amp and preamp, and Acoustic Zen Satori speaker cables. Each player used the relatively inexpensive but excellent Signal Cable power cords. The amps were warmed up for an hour prior to beginning the critical judgments. Each person was asked to take notes and rank the players based on tonality, imaging, soundstaging, and the rest of the usual parameters, and then on Redbook vs. SACD capabilities. We used three disks as standards: Area 31 (Chesky SACD), Alison Krauss and Union Station Live (Rounder SACD), and Mephisto and Co. (Reference Recordings CD).

The Results:

EMM CDSD and DCC2 – All but two agreed that the EMM separates provided the best sound overall on Redbook playback. The group was split 7 to 5 in favor of the EMM gear over the Ayre on SACD.

Ayre C-5xe – the Ayre came in a very close second to the Meitner gear. Every single participant placed the C-5xe in second place. Several people commented that it was the most ‘analog-sounding’ player that they had ever heard. There’s no question that it is an extraordinarily relaxed presentation – not in the sense of being laid-back in any way; rather, it seems to be completely devoid of ‘digititis’. In comparison to the EMM CDSD/DCC2, it lacks only a bit of transparency and a smidgen of macrodynamic capability.

Denon DVD-5910 (Underwood Level 1 mod) - an excellent player in almost every regard, and another that shows a distinct lack of digital fatigue. The EMM and Ayre bettered it in minor ways in several areas. It was generally acknowledged that this Denon had one shortcoming relative to the top two: there seems to be a pervasive fine grain in the upper midrange that is not unpleasant but tends to obscure details in large-scale works, somewhat to the detriment of the soundstage.

Dcs P8i (tie) – those who have heard the big Dcs stacks had high hopes for this single unit player. It has no glaring faults, but at the same time was judged as a cut below the best in virtually every regard. In particular, it seemed a little soft at both frequency extremes.

Esoteric X-01 (tie) – the X-01 provoked more debate than any other player in this group. The two two individuals who did not put the EMM gear in first place had the Esoteric in that spot. Three others put in near the bottom of the pack. Why such differing opinions? The X-01, in my opinion, is a study in ‘excesses’, both good and bad. It clearly had the best macrodynamic capability of any of the pack. I mean, this is come-up-and-smack-you-in-the-face territory. On the other hand, it became harsher more quickly than any of others. Personally, this is something that I don’t willingly tolerate. Just to ensure that it was the player and not some other variable, we later (after the main session was over switched to two other power cords (Acoustic Zen Krakatoa and TG Audio Silver). No doubt some X-01 devotee will berate me for not changing out the IC or placing Ceranuts underneath the unit.

Denon DVD-3910 (Reference Audio mod) – judged to be an excellent value for the money, this player generally does everything well and provides little in the way of irritating behavior. It’s main shortcomings were a somewhat compressed soundstage, slightly blurred imaging, and a less than stellar handling of the midbass (it was the ‘fattest’) of the group. Don’t misunderstand – it’s many miles ahead of the low to moderate-priced pack.

Music Hall Maverick (Underwood 1+ mod) – very similar in almost ever respect to the modded DVD-3910, with a little litter midbass but a distinctly softer high end. The latter aspect may be one reason why the Maverick was graded highly on Redbook playback – it’s a somewhat forgiving player. I’ll be sorry to see it go when I sell it.

Linn Unidisk – absolutely the biggest surprise of the day. This just did not sound anything like a SOTA contender. In fact, it sounded so much like a $199 Circuit City special that its owner has sent it off to be checked out. Because he has ears that I respect and claims that the Linn ordinarily sounds so much better, I would withhold judgment at this point.

So, there you have it. For the most part, both very experienced listeners and relative novices generally agreed on the above, with the one real exception being the aforementioned Esoteric. I am 100% sure that the rankings will ruffle some feathers, but please understand that there is only so much that can be done under the circumstances. I make no apologies for either my own opinions or for those of the participants. Needless to say, your mileage may vary.
curriemt11
Excellent info Curriemt11. Could you post how many hrs had been logged on each participating machine? For instance, outwardly fatiguing soun on X-01 is typically a sign of a unit with less than 800 hrs of break-in. Furthermore, it is worth pointing out that some players, such as X-01 and EMM are fully balanced differential designs, and perform best in a balanced configuration.
I agree with other posts, what an excellent shoot out and thread. I may be mistaken, but I trust a set of enthusiasts doing this sort of comparison,,more than the professionals. However honourable they may be, they are subject to great commercial pressures which must subconsciously mar their conclusions. My modded Shanling CDT 100 appears to be heading west,so this has been very useful. It does'nt finally answer the conundrum of buying an expensive player or a cheaper one and modding it, though I am pretty much in the latter camp.
The problem to me, is the number of "modders" around. A cursory hunt around the Gon gave me, Modwright, Parts Connexion, Upgrade Company, TRL, Empirical Audio, underwood, Reference Audio lab and knowone seems to have a word to say against them. Most are small, enthusiast run companies who give good customer support. How you choose one machine and one company seems tough.
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As long as you're in public service mode...perhaps you could share some general thoughts from the group about the delta between redbook CD and SACD performance in general. I currently only have redbook capability, but have been toying with the notion of moving to a multi-format player (with the Ayre at the top of my drool list right now). Specifically wonder if people felt that SACD was a nice-to-have or a have-to-have after listening to this fine collection of players.

And, please don't place too much weight on all the "how come you didn't have xyz?" comments -- most of us appreciate the effort that went into your shoot-out and your initiation of this thread.

Happy Listening.
Tvad, since you have gone the "mod" way, and I am doing the same, I was wondering how you feel after owning your cdp for a while,-- why(maybe you have) when over time additional upgrades have been developed, (supposedly adding more to the sound quality, etc) you (hey, any other mod owners, please jump in) don't upgrade to the next level. If your cdp is behind a couple of upgrades, don't you feel you're, now, behind the digital eight ball. I hope that question makes some sense. The reason I went with a mod is so that I could readily, in a more cost effective way, upgrade my cdp, should there be new upgrades. I have found, though, many do not step up with the new upgrades. I was just wondering what your feelings are about that. I know, that I would be compelled to go with new upgrades, since I would assume they were done to make the sound better? Assuming I could afford it, of course.
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"devoid of self control" I can relate. It's never because I'm not happy with the sound. Not at this level. It is that I want to be happier. It's this audiophoolishness. Crazy. I am very psyched about the DVD-A recommendation. I love Fagan, so this should be very cool, indeed. This going to start me on a DVD-A run? Hey, another high class problem...peace, warren
It is too bad that there cant be a shoot out with all the top modded units and some stock players. I would buy a ticket to this event. The competition would be great!
One box players only! And would be judged on all formats.
The ones I would want to hear:
Upgrade Company
APL
Exemplar
TRL
Underwood
RAM
And all would have to start with a stock player that was in the 6k and under retail price. Stock players can go as high as 15k.
Not likely to happen though.
I was told it would be o.k. to start with 10k players and under retail price. And there would be no reason to bring a stock player into the bracket.
We all want to believe that our modder of choice knows what s/he is doing and
would not offer another upgrade unless it was clearly an improvement. But
audio preferences are so personal, you never know. If you are content with your
system and can manage to stay that while for a bit of time, why fuel the anxiety
fire buy chasing each upgrade as soon as it's announced?

[Now, why can't I take my own advice?]
711smilin I am impressed! I have one thing in common with your system. I have the Klipsch Chorus II speakers but I have never hooked them up with my current system. I am using JM Labs Electra 936's. You should add the Upgrade Company to that list. I just bought a Denon 2900 from David Schulte that was a work in progress unit and it is extremely good. I would put it up against anything and I dont think I would be embarassed. I dont get to demo a lot of stock players but I do go into the hi-fi stores and listen to what I thought was good at the time. I have not heard anything like what I am hearing now. If you do put them on the list let me know what you think. I really like there ic's and speaker wire too.
Jp1208, I have not updated my system in quite a while. I am using Epiphany 12/12's, Lamm ML2's, Dodd 120's, Dodd Reference pre, APL 3910, Exemplar 3910, Purist audio Dominus, Sound applications reference linestage, and much more. If you are in the area, you are welcome to stop by. I heard your machine at my house, it was very nice. Not in the league of my other player's, but, David showed me some other magic he performed on different items, and yes, it is very impressive. I took David to the Bahamas for his Birthday in Febuary. I am gonna have him do TONS of mods for me. Some time soon, I will update my system, I am waiting for some custom horns to be delivered in the near future.

Best

Smilin
711smilin, so you are the one that got David hooked on gambling. He said he took the Denon 2900 with him but it was not fully Upgraded. He had done some more work to it when he got back and then sent it to me. Looking at your system now your house would be perfect for a modded shoot out. I might as well ask the question. Apl or Exemplar on your system? Maybe David will send you another unit that is fully upgraded to try and you could give us some feedback. It is a great price for the upgrades you get from Schulte and he can upgrade anything. He has helped me tremendously. Have you heard anything stock that is better than the modded 3910's? IYO
Regards,
JP
I have just read this thread, and, since I own both the EMM and original APL 3910 (without update) systems, used in different systems, the EMM in balanced and the APL in single-ended mode, will not make a comparison. Suffice it to say that they are both superb and I could live with either for ever - so I have read countless posts comparing them in the past 2 years. The purpose of my post is to compliment both Curriemt11 for his forthright and honest handling of the initial error, and Alex of APL for the unusually gracious and commendable manner in which he has handled the same error. Having dealt with him over 2 years, I can only say what a positive experience it has been - any technical issue that I have had has been immediately dealt with and handled in a day or two, without fail. And none of them were due to defects in the APL, but rather how best to use it. (eg switching from fixed to variable output to preamp and its effects)
As a result of these 2 A'goners' attitudes, this has been a really great thread!
Jp1208, me bad, but I did not hook David, I am teaching him to walk with $$$. As for your denon, yes, it was not complete, but we talked about it on the phone. The Exemplar lists for 4500, and APL 6500, so, there ya go. There really should be a difference, and yes, there is. The APL is tops, to me. I have the Latest with ALL mods. I am gonna send David the Exsemplar for his MAGIC, and I assume it will then close the gap. Still, The exemplar will have Burr Brown Dacs, and no volume control. My APL is truely an APL, not a denon.

I bought the Exemplar for my HT, and APL for 2 channel.

I still have other units, as well. Your Denon 2900 is a wonderful, musical machine, especially for the price point and ability to play CD/SACD/DVD-A/Video, and is better than many other's I have owned. Remember, I have owned over 40 sources in the past couple years.

FYI, I am planning on having david work on my amps, pre-amps, speakers, et. If you are in the chitown area, buzz me, and we can get together.

Steve
711Smilin, didn't you have an APL NWO-1 on order? When will you be taking delivery of it?
Jp1208, David has modded a TRL too, you can ask him his opinions. I still have a TRL 595, I sold the TRL DVPns900es. I could not get enough for the 595 to sell, so I still have it. If you look at the old threads, Jes45 said the 595 was better than his scully reel to reel. To each his own.
711smilin, Great information! I love the competiton as everyone should. All it does is elevates everyones game. There is a price point for everyone and I have found a winner. If I am ever in the area I will look you up. I am in the Nevada area were gambling was born. I have never been in your neck of the woods. Would love to here you system though. Could be worth a trip.

Paul.
711, I am not sure if your silence on the subject of APL NWO-1 implies:
a. You missed my original question.
b. You have not ordered a unit at all.
c. You Ordered one and are waiting for delivery.
d. You Ordered one, received it, tried and liked it so much you are now speechless.
c. You ordered one, tried it, and did not find it of your liking, but won't admit to it. Regards, G.
Guido, I am looking for a great deal on a ux-1, thats all/ I do not like to OVERPAY!!!
Hi Curriemt11,

I am anxious to hear if you have pursued Alex's offer to audition the APL/Denon 3910 modification?:

"02-23-06: Aplhifi

Please send me a private message if you would like to hear my Denon against your Ayre since now you have the idea how the Ayre compares to the EMM Labs combo. I will see what can be arranged.

Thanks again!

Alex
Aplhifi (Answers)"

Curriemt11, if you haven't followed up, I would recommend that you try to. You will be astounded!! Please report back after you have heard the APL!

Thanks,

Mark
Anyone with opinions on how the dCS Verdi-Encore/Elgar+ might stack-up against EMM and Ayre?

Excellent review Curriemt11, thanks for this!