I purchased a 2000.00 Universal and about 10 titles mostly SACD
SACD- Nice on surround, actual 5.1 disks, Stereo SACD well if you can get a Re-mastered CD or a Hybrid then its just as good on an awesome Redbook player as thru an SACD decoder... It is interesting.
DVD-A- Most of them ended up very UNDERWHELMING.... as stated earlier, and just a PAIN IN THE A$$...
Vinyl- I am only mentioning this as it seems viable for the discussion, as much garbage as it takes to turn on a DVD-A disc half the time I can put a LP on my VPI record cleaner, and Que it up just as well and it BLOWS away the DVD-A, and Most SACD's... I am not an Analog protector, as a matter of fact I bought My Analog RIG after ATTEMPTING SACD/DVD-A universal world.
CD- Bottom line Re-mastered Cd's and SACD Hybrids sound superior on a good old 16x BIT WADIA 4000.00 player than the SACD on the top of the line Marantz SACD player(this was borrowed)... This will catch much Heat I am sure, but drop the drama, invest Redbook, You can't buy anything on SACD or DVD-a in comparison to well recorded Redbook on a Very good redbook machine unless you are looking for the true benefit of surround SACD's. 2 channel I do not see the point.
Now let me back up, I am irritated only because, I am young, never had vinyl, and I started my High-end(audiophile) Life right in the Middle of SACD/DVD-A War about 2 years ago, so of course I had to have it... I will never go back to the headach of it now that someone was kind enough to show me the true sound of a Wadia player and a Vinyl rig in comparison to it.
I sold all Hi-Def Audio Software and Hardware and took all that money to the used market and Purchased the Wadia and Vinyl rig with YES an old fashoned Record cleaner to get the most out of it, and could not be Happier! Plus 90% of everything you could want is on Vinyl and CD, including New bands, many re-issues, etc...
Don't get me wrong, If you are into the titles that are in abundance on the SACD format GO FOR IT! It sounds VERY VERY good, but if you like maybe 10 CD's that exist on it, take the extra Money and purchase at least a Theta, Wadia, Maybe even Krell Machine(but I do not like the sound as much)... Okay don't take this as bashing, this is Truly my opinion on what I have heard and spent much time testing, And these were all done in home comparisons with Equal cost equipment for the most part for many months. And done in a very good room, good cables, speaker placement, power supply, and acoustic treated room that sounds excellent and does not lie....
I have nothing against the Hi-res music, hell I wanted it, I tried it as a newbee, and there is some definate impressive stuff, the MAIN thing I love about using Hi-res is When you can get your favorite guys in concert with DTS up on the HDTV in front of you, that so far is the only worthy format I have found worth the money and the cause, So I have a Seperate MOVIE / Slash / Concert DVD system that is a lot of fun and phoenominal results... But 2 Channel, get the best CD's or Hybrids, because the Hybrids do for some reason sound better than the originals probably due to they are Re-mastered very well, and a rewarding CD player will show this as much as the SACD counterpart if in a correctly setup system. And Vinyl, Ha well lets just say coming out of college recently my friends laugh until they here it cranked and can't believe it, especially if you have some good stuff to back it, but there is "DOG" recordings on ALL formats so don't think any sytem will Turn coal into a diamond in front of you.
But this all costs money No doubt, I only threw this little thread in here to maybe help some people save some cash... We can't have it all, but you can have it better if you know the direction to go in, I did not, but I found it, and it was full circle all the way back to the begining.. Don't let Hype rule your ears.
Tbg I think it's quite clear Matrix was engaging with fellow audio fans like everybody else who posts here,to suggest otherwise is plain silly.
Now for clarifiction for my stance on SACD.
I have never said SACD was dead and I have never implied it was either indeed I have ALWAYS said it would survive as an Audiophile format and I suspect it still will.
Since Lugs my music review site was designed to enhance Audiogon member's knowledge and focus on music I was delighted to have a SACD section because I realise many Audiogon members are keen on the format. In that if I may humbly say so I have balanced my opinions on my failure to embrace SACD without reservation by doing something positive for the community. It didn't come easy the time and effort to even get the thing off the ground
Why don't you pick on Matrix and the others? They have plenty to say about SACD and it's faults.
My four examples are to indicate the current state of SACD as perceived by some if you think everything is rosy in it's garden then fine.It's only about opinions and indeed perceptions.
What is bugging my ass greatly and apologies to yourself Tvad any anybody else who I'm upsetting is being misrepresented as King Anti-SACD.
It hasn't worked out for me at this juncture,I'm not alone in that but I could well pick it up again at a later date.
If you want to look back at the debate on Audiogon over the last few years I do think most of my points have stood up but that HASN'T stopped a single person getting their enjoyment out of SACD and I'm glad they have enjoyed it.
Please read those points,it's quite clear if you cancel out what you think I'm writing with what I'm actually writing.
Ben, if you look at my first two posts on this thread, they have nothing to do with what you said. The first is just my two bits, and the second is merely to wonder why anyone feels the need to post about this.
Hey TBG, I was intentionally mis-directing my post to you as a fellow traveller and a seeker of fun and humor. Ben, ever thought about relaxing? you should try it. . . it's rather contageous! Finally, I have justt come back from my buddy's place enjoying 5 hours of audio necrophilia, listening to both redbooks and SACD on a Teac X-01 with approx 100 hours of break-in on it. Awesome is the word. I will go back for more once the device is totally broken in.
We as audiophiles tend to over-exaggerate our own interests' importance, i.e. sound quality, when they are far bigger concerns in the consumer elec durables market. I strongly beleive the whole SACD or DVD-A or even Blu Ray DVD etc as CD's heir apparent are misguided hope on our part. Most commentators, including those in the audiophile mags, completely misundertand the previous transition from LP to CD and thus make errors in judgement in discussing SACD or other hi rez formats. CD did NOT win the war because "perfect sound for ever" but it offered a new value added proposition: easy storage, easy use, flexibility (easy to stop, play, pause, access to tracks), and later on portabability among other things. The value proposition was one of convenience not sound quality per se and that regard it was revolutionary and epoch making.
However, SACD, DVD-A etc only offer an marginal value proposition: better sound quality which interests only a few, us. Yes most will be people ablew to tell the difference in well done demo of LP vs CD vs SACD or DVD-A, but they are not willing to endure the switching costs nor is that important to them...
As such, the more I think about it the more it is likely that the new digital formats will remain as a niche market, just like LPs. Not dead, but not thriving either.
The implication is that yes I still will continue along with SACD path, but my playback system cannot compromise on CD play quality in the process as a audiophile (who doesn't have LPs...and too late to start).
HAVE YOU GOT A WIRE LOOSE ?.....SACD and DVD-A cd's open up a whole new level of listening BUT ...if the rest of your equiptment isn't up to par...well then you are not going to hear a difference....I'll bet cassette tapes and cd's sound alike to you!....The Marantz dvd-9500 that you dumped on is one of the finest sounding players in the market and HIGHLY recommended by people that own them....NOT borrow them.....you probably didn't have it hooked up correctly.....Upgrade the rest of your system and you WILL hear what all the hype is about.
Guidocorona ever thought you could fight your corner passionately? I've been relaxed the whole time but obviously you know better. Send me a list of rules on how you think I should conduct myself MrKnowitall.
I have to interject.... SACD is better, fine but agains a 5000.00 Ultimate redbook player??? It may even better it still in certain aspects, but lets go back to the ORIGINAL premise of my thread, I said there are some distinct advantages of SACD, but just in my opinion not to the MUSICAL sense extreme... So Untill you can put a TRUELY excellent dedicated Redbook machine with Recent CD' Quality recordings or HYBRID SACD, Not something from 1988, and A-B directly to the Same system you would be very surprised at the redbook development and comparison in sound... Hey ,SACD could still edge it out, especially in certain Genre of music, but in General, I find the Redbook an excellent format, Cheaper and way, Way, Way, sorry, WAY more Material and in turn Capability in the long run... But that is not to say the investment for those special recordings on SA' are not worth it... And Again I Gave up on the SACD journey only after Truly Hearing the Advantage of VINYL as everyone agree's in the end.. Yes it is a little more finicky, and truthfully I do not get bothered buy this, I listen maybe to one side of vinyl just for Kicks and really bringing back that natural sound and then Simply move on to very good Redbook and maybe get bored again and throw another side of vinyl in the mix... Its all about habits and enjoyment in the end, not the Superiority technically of each format... YES DVD-A could be super good for conveinence as you could fit from what I hear 10 albums on one disc with Excellent sonic results, its nice, but I don't mind getting up every 45 mins to play with the equipment.
My guess is up to about the 1500.00 range SACD will get any player from redbook, you do have to advance quite a bit to grab the magic from a redbook Cd a little more.. So in the long run you could say Redbook actually cost more money to get right than SACD I can just about agree with that. A cheap CD player will not compete with SACD even in a Modest SACD player, so if you guys are basing on that then we are definatly comparing apples to oranges then.
Matrix, in this post I entirely agree. It is just that I am not certain that sacd is dead nor that it was hype, such as you say in your initial post.
Redbook has advanced greatly in the last five years. How much further it could go, I certainly would not guess.
PCM was first and has been adopted by the computer industry. DSD had an uphill battle as a result, unfortunately. I suspect that the computer industry will abandon PCM at some point, perhaps at that point if dsd is still around it will revive, or perhaps MP3 and the loss of the public's hearing will kill everything including redbook.
My guess is up to about the 1500.00 range SACD will get any player from redbook, you do have to advance quite a bit to grab the magic from a redbook Cd a little more.. So in the long run you could say Redbook actually cost more money to get right than SACD I can just about agree with that. A cheap CD player will not compete with SACD even in a Modest SACD player, so if you guys are basing on that then we are definatly comparing apples to oranges then.
and The fact is I was within SACD Small Scale, I would never tell anyone with a Collection of 500 titles to turn around and believe in Redbook and go backwards, this was a developed thread to show that Redbook is not an un-acceptable option in comparison done correctly,,, fista cuff to fista cuff, each will win their own battles, but I could never suggest anyone get into vinyl, although the advantages to some extent are big, its very hard to get good equipment, fairly expensive and takes some expansive knowlege to juice the best out of it, and you will pay near 25 dollars period for good and rare audiphile type vinyl copies, and time, convienence is out the window. But I had some funding to launch a pretty sweet setup, and its a new format to me never haveing vinyl before.
9 times out of 10 if shown the real advantages, I think the guy with 8 sacds will find that a used 2000.00 redbook player will benifit more greatly. but what do I know, I am not an engineer I just listen, also I always had to be on the cutting edge with Formats and Technology so logically I went straight for SACD lived with it for about a year, and got lucky to find the stronger options for myself, it was costly. Best advice I can give is Don't take anybodys word for anything, You have to experiance it first hand to learn and educate yourself on anything in the world, then you have the power to accept or reject and option.
by the way DVD and HD have been far succesfull for me being newer formats, SACD just can't pull enough to hold my attention
Ben_campbell, You caught the Whole point of this forum... I did use some strong words in order to ENGAGE interest in the topic, it is not to say anything is wrong with supporting or denying a certain capability of a format, it was about the Bottom line... MONEY, LIVEING with your choices and Mainly directed to someone with Little experiance in Wanting to dive into the thousands that can be spent on SACD or even DVD-A and end up on a dead end road... Or a split road of is it important enough vs. very capable and nearly as good sounding equipment.... Sure if SACD can revive a 40 year old recording and make it Many times better than CD format could clean it up I BELIEVE IT... Beyond that it is all slight of hand in making huge improvements in the Digital quality medium. READ my EXPERIANCE on the first post, it was not negative at all, it was just a little informative as to the pitfalls and cost, thats it.
Oh and, If you are looking to dive into SACD or DVD-A and there is a LARGE or even small scale percentage of discs, lets say at least 20-50 or even 500 titles that have strong interest to you GO FOR IT!! buy a Good universal and ROCK... Its great, but I have about 15-20 titles that would make sense for me, and actually was able to eliminat that need with Hybrids and Remasters that work 95% as well on a very good redbook player... so In my options, SACD is just really not in the cards anymore. Its that simple guys... but I do have to admit, I have not heard a UNIVERSAL player(we are not talking a Dedicated) SACD player that has sounded as good as straight and Strong redbook, but sounds decent on all 3 Redbook, SACD, DVD, whatever, MP3... if you want that go for it if you can build a resonable library out of it, but Ben_campbell maybe we do not have that capability, we are the minority in this case and 90% of the guys on this board go for mostly SACD titles and that is great that this occured for them.
Tvad 99% redbook on an SACD player, or do you have a dedicated seperate?? Just curious not to be argumentative, just would like to know, obviously we cant all get our hands or wallets on top SACD and be able to to have a super extensive collection. Hell I only own maybe 150 cds period!! I just found the route of an excellent Redbook used was the easiest and most effective, But sure I guess it could be possible an SCD-1 Sonys could be very sweet on both formats, but have not had that experiance I just toyed with the Kill 20 birds with one stone approch in Universals and that. But I'll hand onto the WADIA I have truly never heard Redbook better, and I did get to hear the SCD-1 in a store once, but without direct comparison obviously nobody could make claims one sounds more correct than the other..
Check this out guys, I stole it from another forum, I completly agree Wadia for whatever reason has it right, What is funny is on my Unit it has "INVERT" which essentially plays the disc backwards I guess, not physically but the bits (zero's and One's) and it SOUNDS way better with the invert on many discs, its part of the wadia Digimaster system I believe, and This was the thing that really added the edge against SACD, it sounds so Holographic and like a 50ft high soundstage out of this player on standard redbook that I did not look back on SACD after hearing for sometime.. not to say this will be everyones experiance but is mine... This is the post that reminded me, wadia knew something and WHY have they not Embrassed SACD???
06-21-05: Lawdog_949 In my opinion, the single most important factor is probably making sure that the digital signal is "clocked" as close the the DAC as possible. Many later models of of high end manufacturers now recognize this, and some, like Wadia, recognized the problem years ago which is probably a major reason why their stuff sounds so much better. But most transport/dac combos out there clock the signal at the beginning which means all the jitter resulting from the reading process gets sent along with the signal and are not dealt with in the DAC process.
I have a DVD-A and SACD playback system so I used a Sony SACD player for SACD and a the transport of a Pioneer "elite" unit for the DVD-A coupled with a MSB "gold" dac. I had serious problems with the jitter with that combination so I bought a Monarchy "jitter box" which not only reclocks the digital signal before sending it to the DAC but also upsamples cds to 24/96 kz.
I found a used upper end Denon SACD machine that played back SACD so well that I couldn't tell the difference between the $2000 Sony and the much cheaper Denon. The Denon let me scrap the Pioneer transport so all the units can be plugged together. The Monarchy box which lists for $299 (although they are dumping the units for $199 right now on the Monarchy web site as they are about to release something new to replace it) does such a good job that my DVD-As and upsampled cds sound better through it and the MSB than those processed by the Denon (better bass dynamics and "slam". . In fact, the upsampled cds sound better through this configuration than the upsampled cds through the Sony unit (which won't process DVD-A, the bastards!).
I have never owned a dedicated sacd player. I don't think they exist. Every sacd player I have owned also plays cd and the newer universal players, such as the Denon2900, 3910, and 5910, play all format including HDCD. I will again soon have a redbook dac and will use my 3910 as a transport.
There is no question that there are inexpensive universal players, which while not rivaling cheap cd only players, nevertheless give you the ability to play all formats.
Tvad, I would agree about the debate, but words, such as hype and dead, hardly suggest it. That is the whole purpose of my initial post on this thread. I don't think the claims of sacd are hype, and I have yet to see evidence that it is dead.
Maybe I'm just being grumpy after 11.5 hours of work but I can't get through 1/3 of this thread because of the God awful spelling and punctuation (what's with all words in the middle of sentences with caps?). Try reviewing along with the spewing.
Ben, fighting my own corner passionately? Naaaah, too much work! Like you, I am far too relaxed for that. You looking for a rule book? Why. . . you lost your copy? Well. . . so did I! Matrix, seems to me the 'invert' switch on your Wadia is a phase inversion switch. Not a very new idea. My 1993-vintage EAD 7000 Mk.3 has it and it was not the first by a very long shot. Yet it's true. . . in some cases it does help.
I have limited SACD and some hybrids (classical stuff). My own impression on a fair SACD universal player (Pioneer DV-47Ai) is that SACD is a bit better in my own system. People with a lot of money invested in their system rave about it so it must be good, no?
LP's are better mostly. No digital glare. My friend claims he cannot listen to digital more than 30 minutes without turning it down or off, but LP's for hrs. I think that' exaggeration, but I see his point.
My point has been that it takes a lot more money to get digital to sound good than analog, but LP's are limited by selection.
1. It strikes me that there is an element of apples to oranges. One needs to compare players, regardless of whether its CD or CD/SACD, in a similiar price range. The flow of logic and commentary does not always seem to be the case.
2. As it took sometime to redbook to develop with also profileration of players, same thing with SACD. Interestingly as SACD titles slow down, new players are being introduced by various mfrs. Typically they start with their flagship and then provide more economic models. Ayre just introduced a universal two channel only no video player for example.
3. The claim, no I would say assumption that CD/SACD players are not as good on redbook as pure redbook players I find very misleading...it all depends on the player themselves. Compared to a redbook only player in a similiar price range, Meitner, Esoteric, Ayre, dcs (all SACD) or Arcam, Meridien (DVD_A) all I think have nothing to be ashamed of, and indeed in certain cases actually exceed their redbook counterparts on redbook.
4. The real question remains title availability, especially those recorded in DSD (which makes a huge difference) and u got me there. For me thus high rex is icing on the cake, a niche to pursue while NOT sacrficing redbook performance. I feel the Meitner gear provides superior redbook performance (compared to say Wadia) so there u go.
Okay.... I agree, drop 10,000 and it better take a step above 5000.00 just not always the case. So be it, if you can get the 8000.00 universal to be as good on all formats and better than an 8000.00 dedicated Redbook even on redbook , more power to you and if we could have access to this equipment without haveing to buy it to test used, which is mostly the case unless you have dealers in every state that carries every one of these variations, and Meitner or whatever modified machines we will all never find the holy grail as it is called.. So be happy with what you have, if you can make a step towards a very high expense in experimentation do it. This is an audio site for opinion, but seems that points are taken in the wrong direction completly, and we are all Long winded inferior writters in the end trying to prove something, but never come to an answer. Good luck, live on, I have said my peace.. Thanks guys for making it competitive and hopefully with the 9000 posts of jargon someone can come up with an idea of what it all means in the end.
Matrix I think if you had tried a Modwright Sony, APL Denon or Exemplar Denon all of which are universal players and cost less than the $4000 Wadia you would have the best of both worlds you were looking for. It is too bad these were not your second choice after the Marantz you would have saved some dough and had state of the art redbook or SACD capability. Just my humble opinion.
Well, I did not spend anywhere near any of those prices for a used wadia... I am content for now. Plus again I experimented enough at this point, and the fact is I do not miss the 2 or 3 SACD discs that made improvements, and definatly do not miss the ones that sounded worse... And I swear that a bowie and aerosmith SACD fell to redbook... but they were just bad recordings. If everything was available then I would definatly go back to a universal with plenty of titles to choose, but I think that train has parked in the sony camp, and may never see the capabilities of SACD universally to all music.
Nothing wrong with enjoying your Redbook. You have a good CD player. The sticking point on SACD is the same as it's always been, availability of quality pure DSD software (forget the other SACD recordings- they don't improve much over Redbook). But the quality is better on pure DSD, and in your case it might not be worth taking the plunge at this point.
We'll see about the future. I kind of backed into SACD by getting a Sony XA777ES for it's transport capability to use with with an outboard DAC for Redbook. It turns out to have a very good Redbook DAC itself, and is a great SACD player. Mine was Modified by Modwright and I bought it used for around $1,500. So, it doesn't take a fortune (ie Meitner). But again, there doesn't seem to be enough justification for you to change over at this point.
which is also one of the reasons when looking at a SACD or universal player, u have to be careful of the digital technologies adopted...many convert the DSD signal into PCM data before conversion into analogue...does not that defeat the purpose?
henryhk, it does not ultimately matter what technology is employed by a device, provided it delivers the sound. For example, the Teac Esoteric X-01 as well as its various siblings do DSD2PCM conversion. Yet to my ears. . . the X-01 does sound superb and preferable to DCS.! Trust your ears and do not worry about the underlying alphabet soup! If you preferred better a player that used a pure DSD stream, go for it. Otherwise. . . worry not a yot. In the end we will be listening to music, not deciphering achronyms.
I hope this provides another slant on things. I walked into Times Square mall in Hong Kong and found a store called SAM The Record Man. I assumed he was part of the North American chain but he clearly wasn't. The cheapest regularly priced CD in his store was over $200US. Talk about CD price sticker shock. Sam, the owner, is a Japanese first cd pressing purist plus an original recording (no remastering please or SACD or 24 bit reissues)purist in the extreme. He puts each customer through a listening session to prove his points and obviously convinces enough people to part with over $200US per disc before they leave (I declined). He has initial Japanese pressings(before the mother disc loses its virginal qualities) of a wide selection on music and is firmly convinced that nothing can rival the initial cd pressing run in Japan, i.e., not SACD, DVD-A, or 24 bit. He insists that all original musicality and imaging is lost in the remastering process. He says just go out and buy yourself an equalizer if you want to remaster cds. I didn't try to argue with him even though there were obvious counter arguments to be made given his extremely sweeping generalizations. He showed me some hi-fi publication write- up on his shop and the author mentioning in the article that he was convinced enough to drop a small bundle on CD purchases. If this sounds interesting to anyone you can contact him at james@ecoffiz.com He ships worldwide. Colin
Matrix: The purpose of the INVERT function on your Wadia player is to invert phase, not play the disc backwards :-) Many discs are recorded out of phase, so this can be a valuable feature.
Keith Herron had a quip at the CES a few years ago: "We were almost out of phase, so we ordered some more."
Brian, I trust everyone was over 21 at that quip party thing. . . they sure do not sell no Phase to no minors here in Texas. But in Vegas. . . well. . . anything can happen there!
Perhaps so Guidocorona....I have tried the Esoteric orginal universal player...was it X-01? Anyway very good indeed. But I cannot help think that it must make a difference though I am not an engineer. It may be the case that it depends on the recording? Speculating here, but if org recording was done PCM then converted into DSD for the SACD printing, perhaps not much of difference: all that differs is that PCM based players will have to go thru one more conversion....but if DSD recording in the first place, wouldn't a DSD based player do better, other things being equal? In other words the Esoteric is great yes, but perhaps the mechanical engineering (great transport mechanism!) is so superior that it is compensates for this? At the end, you are entirely right, given the digital tech employed is not the only factor, we have to trust our ears as with everything in the end.
Henryhk, that's really difficult to say. But you may very well be right. I know mgottlieb uses the X-01 as a transport to his DCS system for SACD. In his judgment X-01 has a better transport, while DCS has a better DAC section. . . and unless I am wrong DCS does do pure DSD. But is the sound of the DCS better because of being purely DSD or is it because they have a better design, or simply because the sound is more to Mgottlieb's liking? Who knows!
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