Before I forget, I have to add that the SHL-5 needs to be placed at a further distance apart for better soundstaging capabilities. Due to width limitation of the room, the speakers were about 7' apart previously to get them away from the side walls. After some minor adjustments earlier today, the SHL-5's are now 7'5" apart tweeter to tweeter, 4'3" from the back wall measured to front baffle and toed-in more towards the listening position. Although the speakers are now very close to side walls about 1' clear distance away, amazingly they still sound very good(most speakers would have already sounded terrible with collapsed soundstage when placed at close proximity to side walls). Close placement to wall boundaries is definitely not an issue with the Harbeth SHL-5.
Room is treated with absorption at first reflection points on side walls and diffusion at rear wall. |
Hi Shadorne, I suspect it is not so much on the preamp but the smooth sounding Plinius amp. The rough edges, piercing treble and grainy vocals are pretty much subdued with the Plinius/Harbeth combination. I guess Garbage must have sounded bad with your ultra-revealing ATC actives. I'll be getting a leaner, more revealing and dynamic amp with plenty of PRAT to match the SHL-5's soon to have the best of both worlds. |
I never enjoyed listening to music in my car as listening fatigue is too high even at moderate volume levels. At low volumes the sound is not full enough. Yes, Shirley Manson sounds good, thanks to the warm, lush and laidback sound of the Plinius amp.
Anyway I just brought back a rare British amp yesterday, an NVA AP70. When powered up from cold, this amp has killed my ARC/Plinius amplification in terms of transparency, musicality and detail. This unit is a new old stock and still very new. The manual states the amp will sound much better when used for 2 weeks and powered up at all times. I cannot imagine how the amp will sound like when it reaches its optimum level.
It is too premature to pass any judgments at this point of time but first listening impression is extremely positive. The NVA has given a breath of fresh air to the sound with its clean and delicate presentation and has confirmed the Plinius to be a warm and lush sounding unit. Tonality is much improved and the sound takes on greater presence and realism. Voices sound like real voices, less digital and grain, almost tube-like. Micro-dynamics, tonality and timbre are now greatly improved which further add to the listening enjoyment.
The only setback is Shirley Manson's voice now sounds a little strident and guitars take on a shrill and sharp sound which translates to higher listening fatigue. Since the midrange now doesn't sound too thick, the bottom end appears to have less bass(although bass is still taut). Nonetheless, I suspect things may improve when this unit is fully run-in within the next few days, or weeks as claimed by the designer.
In summary the revealing nature of the Harbeth has been further exposed with the clean and transparent sounding NVA amp, or vice versa. The Harbeth is not all that warm as what I have thought of earlier. Matching is extremely important in getting the tonality right, and yesterday's experience has proven that.
I am not sure whether my ARC pre or Plinius power amp is the culprit, nor do I want to write any bad things on either one since I know there are many folks who own the Plinius and love the sound. After listening to the NVA the Plinius now seems to sound a little "fake"(can't think of a better term to describe it at this point). It may well be the preamp but after trying out 4 preamps with the Plinius odds are high it's the amp. |
Yes, I agree about Alan Shaw's views and assertions in not worrying too much about different amplifiers with Harbeth speakers as in his mind all would sound more or less similar. Of course, I have found the opposite and have a different viewpoint.
Hi Drubin,
I settled for the SHL-5 instead of the M30 as the latter is too smooth for my listening preferences and musical taste. It is a more refined speaker but the high frequencies are not as open and extended as the SHL-5.
To me, the SHL-5's do not lack resolution and transparency provided they are driven by the right amplifier. With my Plinius, it is apparent they are shut-in and lacking in resolution and dynamics. With the LFD Zero MkIII, there is nothing to fault with the speakers as all detail, resolution and dynamics come forth strongly. The best part is the transparency kicks in without any listening fatigue. The transparency of the LFD amp has shown what the SHL-5's are capable of, or vice versa.
I cannot deny that there are other speakers that possess higher resolution and transparency than the Harbeth, and I have owned and listened to some of these speakers which include Proacs and Marten Duke. Sometimes too much transparency especially in the high frequencies is too much of a good thing which translates to higher listening fatigue. Most of the time I cannot tolerate listening to these systems at prolonged sessions. |
Hi Saabuser, Those stands are custom made. Thin, hollow and lightweight open-frame stands. |
It has been almost a year since I owned the SHL5. A few amps have gone in and out of the room and I have finally settled for an amp that I think can last me for a couple of years before I start looking again.
Due to the Harbeth designer's philosophy and perspective in amplifiers, I decided to post my findings here instead of sharing them in the Harbeth user forum.
When I got the SHL5 I was using the Plinius and briefly tried the LFD in my system. I have tried a couple of amps for the past few months which include the Mcintosh 275Mk4, Nagra PSA, Rega Elicit and Naim Nait XS. I now use the Naim 202/200.
The Mcintosh tube amp was a nice sounding amp that sounded more involving, organic and real compared to the Plinius. I was tempted to settle for the Mcintosh but the hassle of tubes prevented me from going the tube route.
I wasn't impressed with the Nagra but to be fair the unit was not optimised as I didn't have the matching preamp.
I then settled for the Rega Elicit after getting a few recommendations and was quite happy with it, only for 8 months. It has a fairly neutral and warm tone which sounded more transparent than the thick-sounding Plinius. After living with the amp for a while I find the sound to lack transparency and openness. In other words music sounded dull and lacklustre, and as I was yearning for a more live sound I started looking again. I tried the Naim Nait XS which has an equally warm tone but the overall presentation of the amp had proven to be more involving than the Rega. The PRaT qualities, as usual with Naim amps are a notch higher than the Rega. One thing comes after another and before I knew it I ended up with the Naim 202/200.
The Naims managed to inject some life and dynamics into the music and sounded a lot involving than most amps that I have tried. They managed to project a holographic image and present music in a fun and believable way. Listening to pop and rock music on the Naims is truly enjoyable even though the Harbeths are not well known to excel in these types of music. I reckon there is still room for improvement and will get an alternative CD player that is more open, upfront and dynamic than the one I have right now. |
Thanks for the kind words Drubin and Jim.
Yes, I do understand Alan Shaw's perspective in the use of inexpensive amps in driving his speakers. The problem is where should we draw the line in categorizing amps which are considered as exotic and amps which are budget-friendly. He sure doesn't like people advocating the use of expensive and exotic amps on his speakers.
I think Alan won't be happy if I continue to post my findings in the HUG. In the latest thread "Concepts akin to Harbeth's and brand development ...." he has mentioned that the manipulation of the consumer into a position of psychological inadequacy sickens him. I have a strong feeling he is referring to me. (I have made my point to another Harbeth user who is enjoying his speakers driven by a cheap mini stereo system.) In order not to upset him I think it is best that I keep my mouth shut.
Jim, so you are using Classe CAP 101. I have owned a CAP 100 years ago on B&W CDM 1SE speakers. From my memory the Classe has a nice warm and fluid sound, and I can imagine how the Classe and M30's combination would sound like. I am not sure what aspects you find the combination lacking that prompted you to consider an amp replacement for your Classe CAP 101. It really depends on what exactly you are looking for in your music. I would prefer not make any specific amp recommendation these days as I have found out that people's taste and listening preference can differ a lot. Having said that if you want more macrodynamics and toe-tapping factor kind of presentation, two alternatives worth looking at are the LFD and Naim. Both are perennial recommendations for Harbeth speakers with proven record, and I think you must have known about it. I have not listened to the Luxman which equally garnered a lot of praises. Whatever your choice, I would advise against the Rega as it would sound more or less similar to your Classe you have right now. If you find enjoyment with your current setup, please stick with the Classe and be part of the Harbeth family. Alan would be pleased.
p/s: Pcoombs is using Nagra PSA driven directly by the Wadia 381 on his M30's. |
I presume Alan Shaw is saying that 85dB is the safe volume level in normal listening environments. I’ve asked the question once and the designer cannot commit to a figure.
I believe the SHL5 can handle up to 105dB peak SPL without any problems. It depends on the distance one is sitting away from the speakers. Since SPLs will decrease by 6dB for every distance doubled, the SPL for 95dB at a distance of 2m away would be 101dB. If the listening distance from speakers is 3m away the SPL would be 104dB. At 4m the SPL would be 107dB. Assuming you’re sitting at approximately 3m away and getting a peak SPL of 95dB I wager the speakers would be fine as 104dB is still below 105dB.
FWIW I am getting a peak of 100dB at 3m away, which means the speakers are actually pumping out 109dB, quite a bit out of the recommended range. Sound is still very much in control although I may be listening to some distortion added in.
As for amp wattage, 1W will produce 86dB(since the sensitivity of the SHL5 is 86dB/m). Since every doubling of power will increase the SPL by 3dB, you would require 64W to produce 104dB(at 3m listening distance). Anyway all this technical interpretations are a general guideline only as the system may perform differently in practical use. Even if the limits are exceeded, the amplifier and speakers may still be in one piece as we get more distortion in music.
I may try your suggestion in turning the speakers upside down sometime to hear the effects myself. I agree that vocals on the Harbeth sound glorious. It’s just so natural that listening to other high-end speakers(that I don’t want to mention names) made them sound artificial with unnatural detail. I can listen to the SHL5s all day long on a good day.
Re. amps –one man’s meat is another man’s poison. The Naims don’t suit everyone. Not the most analogue sounding in vocals when compared to a few good tube amps(although I still find vocals as smooth as silk, thanks to the Harbeth). I love them for their PRaT qualities especially when playing rock music.
Cheers. |
The Plinius is a smooth and warm sounding amp, a bit on the dark side. Matched with the equally smooth and warm Harbeths, too much of a good thing. Folks who predominantly listen to mellow stuff and vocals will prefer the Plinius/Harbeth combination. For a better portrayal of transients in music especially rock and dynamic music with lots of transient swings, there are other amps that can do better.
Listening preferences and patterns will play a part when matching specific amplifiers to speakers, although the setting up of speakers(placement and room conditions) will also be a huge factor. I've had the Harbeths in different rooms for almost three years now and they sound very different with the environments that they are in. I find the SHL5 to sound best in mid-field arrangement with a minimum listening distance of around 8', ideally 9' to 11'. |