Generally, nearfield listening (8 ft.) is preferable with speakers because it minimizes the deleterious effects of room reflections. This is somewhat less important with Salons due to their sophisticated power response, but still important. I know people who have listened to the original Salons at 5.5 ft. (the drivers integrate quite quickly). I used my Salon 1's at 8 ft. and I have no reason to believe that the Salon 2's would be different. |
I have my Salon 2s spread 10 feet wide and sit about 9 feet back (they are currently close to the back wall, but will be moved out into the room fairly soon). As I am sure you've already discovered, the Salon 2's tweeter dispersion is absolutely outstanding and the sound in less-sweet spots deeper into the room is still quite good.
BTW, I'm a Kuro guy too: KRP-600M and 5080 in the main house, and a KRP-500M in the summer house. Great displays! |
THe Salon 2s are much taller speakers than the Original Salons I believe. I am aware that the tweeter is quite good off axis, but there should be a limit on the angle below tweeter axis which would be optimal. Hence my question. Also in my current room stage depth is less than I would like I think because they are to close to the front wall, which is why I was curious about where people have them positioned. If in thenew room I have them 5 feet out from the wall instead of 2 or 3, and I sit back 10 or 12 feet instead of 8 or 9, clearly I will end up being too far back from a 60inch display, so despite how wonderful it is , I may have to go in a different direction. |
Judging from your question in the comments following Robert Harley's review of the Salon 2s, I'm guessing you haven't grown any in the interim and that you still haven't fully resolved your vertical axis response concerns to your satisfaction. :)
I will say that while auditioning for the speakers that eventually became my Salon 2 purchase, I listened to a pair of Legacy Focus SE that sounded quite nice when seated in the sweet spot. They then lost 50% or more of their high end response when I simply stood up - so your concerns certainly have merit in general. I have not noticed any such phenomenon with the Salon 2s, but neither have I done any detailed listening to them at various heights and/or distances to ascertain any differences in tweeter output.
There are a couple of reviews out there discussing the Salon 2s off-axis tweeter response, but I assume these are along the horizontal axis. Stereophile measured response as essentially flat at +/- 10 degrees (albeit at a distance of only 50 inches), while Sound and Vision reported tweeter response with only a -3 db loss at +/-30 degrees. Given that the tweeter wave guide is not round but rather oval, I don't know how to extrapolate the horizontal results to the vertical. You might find it interesting that the Sound and Vision reviewer moved them out only 3' from the front wall, not 5'.
SoundStage Network did in fact measure the Salon 2's up and down axis response...and then averaged those results with horizontal axis and directly-aimed response and only published the average. Maybe you could contact them for the stats.
My pair are spread 11' apart. My listening spot is 10' out from the center of a line between the speakers, with the speakers spread just slightly wide so that they are pointed at a spot about 2' behind me. This sets up a wide soundstage in my room but is outside the ideal nearfield distance Raquel describes.
For the purposes of your inquiry, I assume you want to be within 12' of your display (or closer if possible). Tomorrow I'll move them a little closer together and out into the room and from there into various positions to see if there's any change in what I perceive the tweeter response to be in the different locations, and then report back. |
My Salon's are at nine and a half feet, set into an 83% triangle. Although I've found this to be optimal they really sound good at any distance. |
My Salon 2's are positioned 145" from my ears and 118" apart measured from tweeter to tweeter, which is around 82%.
Jim Smith, author of "Get Better Sound " has found that through his experience a good starting point for width is around 80% of the distance from the listeners ears to the tweeters.
I've only had my Salon 2's for a month but I think they are truly world class!
I have Tinnutis in my right ear and a sensitivity to high pitched notes or vocals,I auditioned speakers for the last year and the Salon 2's were the only speaker that didn't give me a certain glare or sizzle in the upper frequencies |
Diw, here are four arrangements I tried out today. The Salon 2 tweeter height is 49 1/2" and ear height in my rocking chair is 42".
Listening material was "Us and Them" from Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, followed by the first "Playing in the Band" from the Grateful Dead's 4-21-72 radio studio show from the recent 73-disc "Europe 72: The Complete Recordings" release. "Us and Them" was chosen because of its upfront percussion featuring lush cymbal splashes and ride strikes; "Playing in the Band" was chosen because it is a rather spare recording in the high end where any changes in how much information the tweeter displays will be readily apparent.
1. Original Position. Speakers 11' apart, head 10' from each speaker, speakers within 6" of front wall and sides of room, speakers toed in and aimed at the outside shoulders so that intersecting point would be about 18" behind my head. Your Kuro would be 11.5' away from the center viewing position in this arrangement.
Listening notes:
Wide soundstage with reduced depth due to close proximity to front wall. Room well involved with slight echo creating what I would call a "hall sound." Bass reinforced by corner placement and the least taut of any position. Just on the verge of a hole in the middle of the soundstage. Dynamics (drum strikes, attack edge of notes) slightly attenuated. Tweeters are just on the edge of losing the crispness and clarity of the other three positions, but stand up-sit down test reveals no significant change in dispersal of information.
2. Close Nearfield; Isoceles Triangle (speakers 7' apart, head 7' from each speaker). Speakers pulled 5' out from front wall and 3' in from sides, and aimed directly at my head. Your Kuro would be 13' from the center viewing position in this arrangement.
Listening notes:
Depth of soundstage increases, soundstage width decreases dramatically from original position. Bass is very taut but with less slam and overall impact. The room is substantially taken out of the equation as echo nearly disappears and bass information is not effected by structural elements. Tweeters are crisp with no significant change in stand up-sit down test.
3. Far Nearfield; 8' Isoceles Triangle with speakers 3' out into the room from front wall and 2.5' in from sides, and aimed directly at my head. Your Kuro would be 11' from the center viewing position in this arrangement.
Liatening Notes:
Soundstage oddly seems much wider than it did with 7' speaker spread. Soundstage remains deep. Bass slightly less taut, with room a little more involved. Tweeters are crisp with no significant change in stand up-sit down test. Extra foot between speakers leads to less in-your-face, more pleasing delivery of high end through tweeter and midrange.
4. Modified Front Wall; 8' Isoceles Triangle with speakers 6" from front wall with midpoint between them centered on front wall. Your Kuro would be 9.5' from the center viewing position in this arrangement.
Listening Notes:
Soundstage wider than either nearfield arrangement; depth more shallow. Bass reinforced by proximity to back wall but not as much as when tucked into corners as in 1. Tweeters are crisp with no significant change in stand up-sit down test. Soundstage width improves when speakers are pointed outside of shoulders.
In sum, playing around with speaker placement showed me that while the Salon 2's bass response and tautness - and soundstage width and depth - could be significantly manipulated, treble information remained quite consistent, with the biggest variation occurring in my original positioning of the speakers in the corners. I perceived little if any change in treble sounds in any of the stand up sit-down tests.
I would think that position no. 4 would serve both your Salon 2s and your Kuro well, if you don't mind a slight thickening of the bass response caused by proximity to the front wall.
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P59teitel, thanks for listing the results of your tests. I am surprised that you found the tweeter response to be OK in nearfield listening. By the way, interesting choice of music for your tests, it took me a long time time work my way through the Europe 72 box, listening to all the shows in date order. But definitely the music release of the year (if not the decade!)
I tend to slump down in my listening chair while relaxing to music or watching a movie. I think one thing I want to is find is a listening chair with a taller seat height. But definitely not the Eames chair they featured on the some website recently as the ultimate listenig chair!
As far as the width is concerned, I think with 3 front speakers the right and left are usually at an angle of 60 degrees in an ITU configuration, so Iyou are talking about an isoceles triangle rather than the Jim Smith configuration (which I am assuming is based on 2-channel).
Thanks for everybody's help, looks like I will have some interesting times when I get into my new listening room! |
The E72 box set was my Holy Grail release - I pestered them to do it for ten years. Of course, it wouldn't be a GD release if Jeff Norman's mix didn't provoke much controversy and argument on deadnetcentral.com, LOL, with anguished cries of "Where's Keith in the mix?!?!" and some gripes about excessive midrange emphasis. The former isn't a huge concern for me, and the latter apparently has been cured by one of my buddies who concocted a software EQ solution - I'll be sending him a hard drive soon. Picky Deadheads, LOL.
And you're right, all the variations were isoceles triangles or pretty close to that, for 2-channel listening. But yeah, even I was a little surprised at the evenness of tweeter response. Of course, one of the reasons I went for the Salon 2s over the Sashas was that they presented a somewhat coherent soundstage when I walked BEHIND them at the store where I auditioned both brands (I love the Sashas in that room, but I don't think I would have loved them in mine, as it has a lot of glass and marble floors).
Anyway, best of luck in your pursuit of home theater perfection! |
