Repair your Cambridge Audio 840E volume contol issues


Many people with Cambridge Audio 840E (and I think 840A) preamps have reported strange volume behavior where the volume levels will suddenly change. Recall that these are the pre-amps with the relay controlled discrete resistor ladders and the Terrapin modules. There has been a lot of speculation posted on the web as to the root cause for this problem, including bad relays and bad volume knob encoders. Cambridge has since changed the design, removing the relays altogether and replacing them with solid state switches. Some, like myself, believe this is a step backward and would like to find a solution to the original faults with the discrete relays.

I own an early version of the 840E that was sent back to CA for re-work. Their service department added a separate relay board (containing the 28 relay array) with Omron G5V1 relays instead of the Massuse ME-3 relays that originally came from the factory. I was assured by Cambridge Service that the new relays cured the problem, but a few years later my volume control issues returned. I purchased a replacement set of Omron relays and replaced the Omrons supplied by service, and this did the trick for another 4 years or so. When looking into the specs on the G5V1, I found a most unusual disclaimer by the manufacturer:

"• Long-term Continuously ON Contacts

Using the Relay in a circuit where the Relay will be ON
continuously for long periods (without switching) can lead to
unstable contacts, because the heat generated by the coil itself
will affect the insulation, causing a film to develop on the contact
surfaces. Be sure to use a fail-safe circuit design that provides
protection against contact failure or coil burnout."

So what Omron is saying is that these were never designed for continuous use, as one might have in a volume control left at the same volume level for long periods of time. Further, it appears heat and high temperatures are at the root cause of the issue. If you look at the relay array for the volume control, the Cambridge design has these relays mounted as close together (side by side in two rows) as they can fit, and the center relays can get very hot. Due to the design of the volume ladder, not all relays are on at any one volume setting. There are also volume settings where the power generated by the relay array is maximum. From a document sent to me by Cambridge audio, it show that the current drawn by the relay array is a maximum of 271 mA at -32 dB, but drops to 131 mA at -30dB and 178 mA and -38 dB. The -32 dB area is where I see my volume instabilities, so it appears it may be related to power generation (and high temperatures) in the center mounted relays in the array. There are also high current levels at -16 dB and -8 dB (271mA) and -4, -2 dB. Of course, with the volume up above -8 dB, volume jumps to 0 dB are much less noticable when they occur.

So what can be done?

I was told by CA that the Omron replacement was the only one available. Turns out not to be true. I have found that Fujitsu makes a better relay that is plug and play replacement (SY-9W-K) for both the Omron and the Massuse relays. The Fujitsu relay has two contact options as well, one of which is much better for the ladder network. Let me explain. In the Omron spec sheet for the G5V1, there is a MINIMUM current rating of at least 1 mA. That means the circuit must flow a minimum of 1 mA to keep the contact resistance stable. Another condition violated by Cambridge Audio Engineering. The Massuse ME-3 is similar. The Fujitsu, however, has two contact configurations, one at 1 mA minimum and the second at 0.1 mA. The latter is more suitable of low current audio use. I believe the contact material (Pd/Ag under Au) is better as well. Finally, the Fujitsu relays are Japanese made whereas the Omron and Massuse are Chinese made. The Fujitsu relays have no continuous duty disclaimer in the spec sheet like Omron has.

Besides relay replacement, it is wise to do everything you can to keep internal temps down. I have my upper cover mounted on 1/4" stand offs to allow air to circulate inside the pre-amp. Mine is an early version without the vents. I have also mounted small aluminum heat sinks on the relay arrays to re-distribute the heat generated in the center units and lower their temperature.

Hope this post helps some of you who like the 840E and do not want to trash an otherwise fine sounding piece of gear due to the irritating volume control issues.
dhl93449

Glad to see folks are still repairing their CA 840s. Took mine out of service because I needed something with digital as well as analog inputs (Rotel RC-1590) but I don't think the Rotel is as good as the CA analog sound wise.

Regarding the encoder, I believe this is also a source of issues with the volume stability. I have another CA preamp, the 851D, and it also has volume stability issues. Sometimes the volume will not increase properly when the volume knob is increased. But it never suddenly pops the volume up like the 840 used to do. I believe what is common to both the 840 and 851 is the volume encoder.

I think you can get replacement encoders as parts from CA directly, if I am not mistaken. They will not, however, tell you what the replacement part number is so you cannot shop outside parts. If anyone has discovered an appropriate aftermarket part, please let us know. 

Hey guys just fixed my pre-amp with the fujitsu relays and works perfect in that aspect :D

But I need a recommendation on the  volume knob encoder. I removed it and wondering what upgrade (brand) should I get to replace the original ? 

Part #  I-2-24

Thanks in advance my fellow Cambridge enthusiasts !  

So I thought I got it with the heat mod posted above - no, issues persist. I too replaced the relays the OP DHL suggested - Fujitsu SW-9-W-K, all 28 of them. I just desoldered the old and put in new, no sockets. The job was easy enough, took a little bit of time but problem completely gone - in fact, these Fujitsu are faster and quieter, Japanese made v. Chinese and I think it's set.

Side note, I started replacing some caps while in there - and what do you know, more cheap parts.. The main filter caps were just cooked, and the others majority non-polar appear very low grade, but odd in physical size, one has to be creative to replace and I wasn't able to get them all. The main filter caps were starting to bulge on mine, those are probably a must do maintenance item.

Nice work DHL for posting these fixes.

One last quick point, I was also surprised by the heat on the volume ladder relays themselves when first opening the heatbox after hours of use - to the touch. The transistor heat sink one couldn't touch it was so hot - again, incredible this was designed in an enclosed case.

I am considering purchasing a couple of computer M2 drive (or similar) heat sinks to lay atop the relays themselves for even more cooling. This preamp seems to share a lot with an ordinary computer, and seems CA didn't really have that mindset.

I own one of these, and all volume issues were solved by the spacer modification mentioned to the lid allowing heat to escape.

I have the Omron 'patch' and I would experience volume fine at one db level, next one up ~+10db in right channel, next click fine, next +10db etc. It's like betting on 'odd' in roulette. One day I even had one channel out, fixed by advancing to the next click on the ladder.

I'm convinced this is purely a heat issue - that is until I run into issues from the relays being in the 'on' position for extended periods - if that is an issue, hasn't happened to me.

But can report all has been remedied with spacers, and flawless operation since.

How could Cambridge Audio overlook this obvious engineering factor? To go through the trouble of such an elaborate volume setup; terrapins! Only not to factor how hot the thing gets with the transistors and heat sink - like a toaster oven on 'keep warm' setting?

These blokes also work at Jag?

And make sure it's TIGHT! with foam tape around the opening of case of the lid - ensuring heat retention. It's asinine.

I took 5mm in height rubber grommets, put a tiny dab of super glue and affix to the underside of the lid to hold in place. I then had to upgrade the screws to a longer M3 - M3 12mm to be exact and fastened the lid on, leaving about a 3-4mm reveal all the way around.

Does it look perfect? no, Does it look bad? no, is the fix smarter than terrapin? maybe.

100% reversible, 100% no longer a pizza oven, and most importantly volume perfect. It might be placebo, but it might even sound better..

Tip for readers/owners of the unit, it's a must-do mod I think.

To answer some of the accumulated questions over the past few years:

My unit has not misbehaved once since I published the mods with the Fujitsu relays, and I use it every day. Note I did not replace the encoder, only the relays. I also have my unit set to turn on and shut off without the relays "clattering" through their volume ranges. I am sure this reduces wear and tear on them.

You can cool the unit better by mounting the top cover plate on .25" stand offs (or spacers) so you have an open slot for the hot air to exit. Just get longer metric screws to allow for the spacers.

If you want the relays in sockets, you have to build you own using "socket strips". The relay itself has odd pin spacing and there are no commercial sockets as far as I know. The socket strips are mounted as to cover an array of relays. As mentioned in the original posts, using these requires the removal of some of the contact positions (or cutting of the leads below these unused positions). Due to the reliability of the Fujitsu relays, I would probably not bother with sockets, and just solder the replacement relays and be done with it.
Dear DHL and everyone else on this forum,

Thank you for this great topic!
A few months ago I purchased a second hand 840A V2 from a private owner. The amp sounds great. Since two weeks the same volume problems appeared on mine. Right channel volume increases or suddenly drops when adjusting the volume at higher levels. I only use the remote control to adjust the volume. But it also happens when I adjust the volume knob manual I discovered.

Do you think in that in my case only the relais ladder causes the problem? So this has probably nothing to do with a bad volume knob encoder?

If so, I was thinking of purchasing the Fujistu SY-9W-K relais, take out the circuit board my self, and bring these all together to a professional print circuit repair company due to the de-soldering issues.

Is the relais board in the 840A V2 also easy to remove? Is it one board or two? I did not open the amp yet, but I saw pictures on the web with only one board with 2x 7 relais. Is the otherone monted below? 

I also tried to find the right sockets for the Fujitsu relais, but I did not find one. Do you have a link or part number of the right sockets?

Thanks in advance and greetings from Belgium,

Peter
RE: CA 840E Volume Attenuation Circuit (Resistor/Relay)

dhl93449
09-30-2016 6:27pm


dhl: Thank you very much for your most useful/needed explanation
of the volume issue impacting the CAmbridge Audio 840E preamp.

I purchased a second 840E (I love this thing !) that was recently returned
to me from CA Canadian distributor Plurison (Naim-Focal) for this very issue.
( supplied the 28 Fujitsu SY-9W-K relay's as you referenced.
Pluison Repair Depot also replaced the P/S cap's, 'Encoder' -and replaced the
stock faulty/shitty relays with the Japanese Fujitsu's.

Preamp sounds great ! Once again. 

As dhl pointed out, the 840E is worth the effort to 'restore'. I'll go further by saying
it's an exceptional, high-resolution line-stage that easily competes with far greater
priced alternatives.
BUT, this  repair MUST be undertaken; shorting/over-heated stock relays  emit such powerful/loud noises (crackling, "pop's") as to endanger loudspeakers. IT IS, quite 
nasty.
In Canadian dollars, the 28) Fujitsu (SW-9-W-K) relay's cost $90. CAD.
Labour 'stings'(costing me $240. CAD), a few other pieces/parts, shipping and you're
into $450. (CAD). Plurison used the original (volume) circuit board without issue, I was 
informed !

Was it worth it ? You bet. The 840E is a fantastic, high-resolution, articulate, dynamic
and musical performer; if one can be purchased (used/excellent condition with full/complete factory packaging -you'll need it) between $600-$800, undertaking the demanded repair will
add another few hundred dollars (depending on labor charges) and you will revel in superb SQ. It IS, that good/excellent ! (Oh, and one should/must consider improving top-cover ventilation for the 840E -that inexplicably comes with no top-plate ventilatin holes.
Options would include:
A) Drilling (carefully) holes in the OE top-cover, or
B) Find/buy a top-plate/cover from the newer CA 851 series that offers proper (and desperately required) ventilation; the 851A? Integrated/Amplifier top plate -that has the most extensive ventilation, or the L/R sided 'vent' from the 851N, 851D, 851C etc. 
(Keep in mind the 851 Silver Top-plate is much brighter (different color/tone) than te painted steel top-plate of the 840 series. Perhaps the color black is better here ?
C) Consider using/purchasing a smoked/tinted' plexiglass (3mm/, 1/8" thick) and cut to required size -not forgetting proper ventilation considerations. 

dhl, thanks again for your excellent original post and subsequent replies.

BTW, these Fujitsu relay's are NEAR SILENT in operation -and that's wit the top-cover off / removed - I can barely hear it operating/clicking.      

peter jasz

Thank you so much for this post, and keeping my 840A out of the skip bin.

3 years on, the Fujitsu's still working correctly?

It is the same omron relay in the 840A v2, that you name.

There are 2 possible causes of volume problems, the relays AND the encoder... If you're as lucky as me it will be both.

If the volume works smoothly when using the remote, the problem is the encoder.
dhl: Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure why I just saw/viewed it now?

I purchased yet another 840E (I love this thing -and its reasonable price).

The original one-owner had not experienced these volume-control issues, but low and behold, I'm experiencing (loud-ish/sharp/snappy) 'crackling' sounds coming through my R-Channel loudspeaker -loud enough to be concerning to the health of the drive-units !

My 840E (on the other hand) has no ;crackling' sounds but does exhibit the 'runaway' volume problem -in addition to cutting/out (abruptly/sharply -and loud) as the volume control is approaching higher volume attenuation (numerical reading "38" (and lower) on the display.

It's a PIA that remarkably CA refuses to either admit -or offer up a permanent solution/fix. That's the most disappointing aspect. 

If I knew of a better sounding/built preamp anywhere near the 840E's price (new or used), I'd gobble it up. However, in my 40-years of hifi experience, its proven difficult to find not only  a great sounding preamp -but one of reasonable (cash) outlay has proven illusive. (lol)

So, I remain with my wounded peamp -not giving up on her so easily !

Thanks for your help.

peter 

Socket strips are optional, of course. If you are careful with the soldering iron, and have a good vacuum de-soldering tool, soldering in the relays is OK. With socket strips, you only solder once, and any replacement afterward is easy. Do not overheat these pc boards or the traces will lift and then the board is useless. If you solder, you will probably not get more than two relays change outs before the board is destroyed unless you have a nice temp controlled industrial vacuum de-soldering tool like a Hakko. This is because the boards use plated through holes and it is very difficult to get all the solder out of the holes on the topside of the board where the relays sit. If the solder is not completely removed and you pull the relay off, you will lift the traces with the relay as it comes off.

I use high quality gold plated MACHINED socket pins/strips. You can get these at Mouser or Digikey electronics distributors. They are a bit tricky due to the odd spacing of the relay pins, and Cambridge did not space the relays exactly on 0.1" spacing. I cut the unused pins on positions that are not used but left them in the strip. I believe I ran the strips horizontally across the rows of relays. This requires the fewest socket pins, but the running length must be broken up into two or three sections, as the spacing tolerance is not exactly 0.1".
Dear Friend,

Thank you very much for your reply.
I understood what you said.
Is it a good idea to use socket strips? Couldn´t it cause bad contacts after some time?
What type of socket strips did you used?
It is true that it is very interesting to make future replacements easier.

Thank you for sharing this solution with us. 
BTW, as an update, the Fujitsu relays are working great. Have not had a volume issue since I put my set in last September.
Edumar:

PM me. I cannot post photos in the forum.

If you open your pre-amp you will see a cluster of relays right in the center of the large pc board. They should be mounted on a separate pc board. There are two clusters of 14 relays (7 in one row, 7 in another); 14 relays per channel. These are the volume ladder relays. Remove the connectors, and the two nuts holding the pc board in place on the main board. Then you can access the back of the board for desoldering. I would put socket strip connectors on the board, then plug you new relays into the socket strips. 
Dear Friend,

I purchased the Fujitsu relays to replace the Massuse in a 840E unit.
I will report the results here.
Could you send a picture of the relays that must be replaced, please?

Thank you very much,

Edumar
Hi
This is my first post on this site.

I've had an 840A V2 for about 4 years now. It is a very impressive amp.
It has been displaying volume issues for the past 6 months or so.
The volume has increased without input from me. When using the volume control on the amp it would be very random even increasing the volume when trying to turn it down. This was more noticeable when rotating the volume knob rapidly after the volume had increased by itself. Using the remote the volume operated as it should.

I've read the previous posts with interest and do not discount their validity. Though I have achieved a satisfactory result to this issue in a very simple way with the use of Deoxit 5 spray.

I removed the front panel and separated the circuit board from the front panel to gain access to the volume control mechanism.
Discovering the volume mechanism was a sealed unit I placed a tissue to catch overspray then sprayed Deoxit on the rotating spindle of the volume control.
Then rotated the spindle back and forth numerous times. I repeated this process 4 or 5 times. 

The result was a much smoother rotation of the volume control.
After putting the amp back together I now no longer have any random volume issues. The volume control moves freely and corresponds correctly to up and down movements.

In hindsight as the mechanism is sealed it is not nessasary to dismantle the amp front panel. Just remove the volume control knob and spray directly onto the spindle where it enters the mechanism.

This makes it a very simple procedure and well worth trying first.

Peter:

They will use probably the Omron or perhaps the Massuse (original OEM) relays. Both types will fail again in two or three years in my experience. The encoder is not the issue, but if they replace it no harm will be done.

I have repaired mine firstly with Omron relays which worked OK for three or four years, then recently failed. The Fujitsu relays are working flawlessly, but to be truthful, it may be too early to tell re their reliability. But they are clearly better suited for duty in this application, unlike the Omron relays which the manufacturer states (on the data sheet) are NOT suitable for continuous duty. When I pointed this out to CA tech support, they never responded back.

I would check to see if CA will replace with the Fujitsu relays, or if you can purchase the Fujitsu relays and have them install. Or, you can replace the Omron's with the Fujitsu relays yourself after they complete the repair. They are mounted on a replaceable pc board that can easily be removed from the main board.

Another tip which may extend the life of these relays is not to use the volume ramp on turn on or turn off.
dhl: What a great post !
... I too purchased a new/demo (NOS?) 840E 2-months back. IT IS, a fine piece of kit (as you point out) !

Yet, I am discovering the volume issues ...arrghh.

Before it goes back for service (I will ask the service centre --C.A.-authorized) what type of relay they'll use (thanks to your excellent post). I'm told the volume "encoder" will be replaced. Does this sound right ?

Many thanks,

 peter