I'm curious what everybody's riuals are when listening to albums. How often do you clean the records? Every Time? How often do you clean and lubricate the stylus? Every time?
In previous conversations, Brian told me he prefers to spread RRL fluids with CF brushes, the same kind you dry brush with, using one for DC and one for VW.
I've tried those, the Last brushes, painting pads from Walmart and DD brushes. DD brushes work best and CF brushes are a close second. The CF brushes will occasionally shed a fiber. If your RCM doesn't pull the fiber out of a groove, your stylus will. Still, if I didn't have DD brushes I'd use CF. Those zillions of tiny fibers do a great job of getting the RRL fluids down into the grooves.
That makes sense Dave since as I indicated above, I was noticing more beading on brand new never played LPs. Really glad I asked the question and thanks to Brian Weitzel for the clarification. In case you happen to read this Brian, what kind of brush do you use or recommend, and should RRL Super Wash be applied directly to the record (the way I do it) or to the brush as I've read some others do?
I was notified from a friend that there were a few guys concerned about the beading effect of our record cleaning solutions. I understand your concerns,however, allow me to explain:
First of all, RRL Super Vinyl Wash and Super Deep Cleaner are suppose to bead up. The water beads up and holds the debris in suspension, away from the record where it can be safely removed with a RCM. The surface tension of the solution also helps penetrate and lift the debris from deep within the record groove.
Adding products to lower the surface tension of the solution will not improve the effectiveness of the fluid, it's a step in the wrong direction.
I hope that this answers this question. I'd would also like to thank all of you for your continued support of our cleaning fluids.
I've had the same experience! Everyone says the RR stuff is better but i feel the vpi did a better job. Even while using the deep cleaner first the wash just seems to float atop the vinyl. I need to clean some sides too, since moving, and wonder if i should go back to the oem stuff. I would think with such a product modifying it would seem to be a step backward when maybe we were happy with the VPI fluid?
I had noticed what you said. The VPI fluid that came with the machine covered the LP and also developed some suds. While the RR just sort of seems to clean and not cover the LP. Now what I do is sort of scrub the LP while it is spinning. I softly Scrub the grooves firmly but gently. This makes me feel better that I am cleaning better and gets full coverage of the LP. I have been doing this for a couple of months now with no damage to the LP that I can notice. Now I am wondering about writting a post for a recipe of homemade solution. Any ideas?
Does anyone find that record cleaning solution beads up on the record instead of forming a sheet across the record surface? Seems to happen more on new records, and varies between records – some I get a nice sheet of fluid on the entire record surface, while on others it breaks up half way round, while in the worst case it beads up immediately behind the brush. The VPI solution that came with the machine sheeted nicely. The next batch was VPI concentrate with instructions to mix in a gallon of distilled water. It beaded so I added a small amount of alcohol per direct instructions from VPI after inquiring to them. The alcohol helped a fair amount. I’ve now switched to Record Research lab Super Vinyl Wash and it really beads up. Does anyone recommend adding a small amount of alcohol to it? Of course its possible beading up is of no concern, since maybe the only area where even coverage across the record surface matters is under the brush. I use the VPI brush. Tried a Nitty Gritty brush but didn’t like it as well because it soaks up too much fluid and becomes saturated. However I didn’t give it much of a try and may use it again. So, does anyone have any thoughts on sheeting vs. beading?
After spending about a grand on cleaning stuff, now I just say piss on it & play em dirty! That way I don't have to worry when my fluid that comes out of the VPI is clean. Once in a while I throw the cartridge in the dishwasher to get the crap off of it.
I only do this now because I was slack last week, and forgot to get a hold of 4yanx when I was out in his neck of the woods.
So now I feel bad, and my records sound like crap, but I am drinking more to overcome these oversights. After enough alcohol, even the bad records sound good. Thank God for the Teres 40 minute motor shut off.!
Most of the contaniments will be microscopic. These will be the deposits in your spent fluid. The other grunge will be left on the vacuum brush. That is why it is very important to clean the brush after each use.
First, condolences on your dead amp. May its resurrection bring sweetness and light. Second, I've always kept my records scrupulously clean, even before I had a cleaning machine. The fluid retained from records that I had previously cleaned by other methods has never been anything but clear. That isn't to say that there are not sonic benefits of more thorough cleaning, just that they aren't readily visible.
How dirty ought used record cleaning fluid to be? Does anybody else find their spent fluid is so clear it looks practically drinkable? I'm newly returned to vinyl and absolutely inexperienced in the kind of record-cleaning you have been talking about here. Having read (and read and read), I ordered fluids, ordered brushes, lucked into a used Loricraft, which arrived just this morning, and set to work.
My records were to start with none of them visibly filthy--when I last played them, many years ago, I was as careful as I then knew how to be and brushed them with a Discwasher. But from the reading I'd been doing recently I had gathered that no record that hadn't been at least scrubbed and preferably vacuumed was could be considered clean and that the fluid one vacuumed off would show just how dirty it really was. I was really looking forward to seeing the dissolved gunk. But, to my disappointment, there doesn't seem to be any gunk--the liquid that shows up in the little refuse bottle is absolutely limpid. I can't tell whether I'm doing something wrong or whether my expectations were just off.
Under normal circumstances I'd just play the cleaned record and hear whether there was a difference or not. But I can't: yesterday, with the worst possible timing--just a day before the Loricraft arrived--my amp failed and had to be sent off to Idaho. I've got probably a month of phono-silence ahead of me. Record cleaning is now my sole audio amusement!
I use the Vpi HW 16.5. Actually, I just got it today. Really nice machine. But I also picked up a can of Gruv Glide. This seems like really incredible stuff. Can I do better?
1. Clean record with VPI HW16 and custom made fluid. Thorough scrubbing if needed. 2. Treat record with Zerostat with Staticmaster brush 2x. 3. Clean stylus with custom fluid and Diswasher stylus cleaning brush. 4. Treat stylus with Stylast.
Fetishist? Perhaps. However, I have many 40+ year old records that play very clean, and I only have to change my stylii when I want to.
I tried clicking my heels together but I fell over and scratched the record. Say, where can I get a ruby-colored ZeroStat? This orangey-red thing works great but it is sooo ugly.
I will admit to clicking my heels and always use the Zerostat between the clicks to negate static buildup from my carpeted floor after having "shot" the LP.
I'm surprised there's no mention of the Zerostat anti-static gun. I use it first, and then use a carbon fiber brush. Once the dust is gathered into a straight line on the record, I vacuum it up.
Then I wet scrub using home made brew, and then vacuum again. I apply LAST extremely sparingly, spreading just two drops across the LAST brush. Records which have had LAST applied to them get a semi-transparent, self-adhesive colored dot placed on their label ... so I don't apply LAST to them again.
The record cleaning machine I use is one of my own design. I found VPIs and NGs to have inadequate suction. The vacuum on my machine has a 1 horse motor. Sorbothane on the turntable keeps the vinyl "stuck" on the platter -- otherwise the suction would lift the record up. I use an old broacast transcription turntable for rotating the record ... this 'table is built like a tank. All of this is built into a printer stand, and it looks really sharp! John Grado uses one of my record cleaning machines.
Thanks for the great thread and all the wonderful posts, Both the info and the humor are great. But, doesn't anyone else click their heels 3 times and say "There's nothing like vinyl ... there's nothing like vinyl?"
I wash my records with a VPI record-cleaning machine before playing them. I dust it off with compressed air. Then, I wait about 2 minute after (to make sure is completely Dry) and then a second dust off with compressed air.
I am curious, where or how can I make/get mixture of trifluortrichlorethane and molybdensulphate? Also, how does it make the record sound better as Detlof suggest?
I clean them only once with VPI as a platform to rinse and vac. I clean with Disc Doctor's brush and fluid. Rinse and vac. Finish with Last Preservative. From then on it is just a carbon brush.
The approach of one anal analogist (VERY LONG) ---- I was asked to post this in this thread, so I will do so.
OK, I will make a very brief visit here and offer some tips that I have picked up myself and have learned from others over the years. They may or not prove useful to you. It is fine to use less “exotic” methods and solutions for cleaning your LP’s but, in the end, if you decide to acquire more and more vinyl and you want to do the best job possible, obtaining a vacuum cleaner and using quality solutions of some sort is a very effective INVESTMENT. Many, though not all, of the methods commonly suggested do little more than push old dirt and grime around and around in the grooves, not cleaning, and possibly doing serious collateral damage. On the other hand, a vacuum cleaner will lift out this grime, in solution, and carry it away. It is also difficult to rinse sufficiently based on the usual suggestions, with a residue and sonic signature left behind.
I will detail my record cleaning regimen. Mine is basically a two-part process, depending upon the filth of the LP. Use any of what seems to make sense for you. Or, ignore it all!
PART ONE – SINK CLEANING
The first part of my regimen is used for any record that has come from a flea market, Goodwill, etc., or a record that has not been played in years and there is some question as to dirt and dust in the grooves. This first part could be employed as a total cleaning method if one decided not to obtain a vacuum machine.
There are a few necessary things you will need:
A pan to hold solution – one of those 6X12 metal or glass meat loaf pans works well. I would suggest a dedicated pan for this. If you use it to cook in, there may be residual grease left behind.
A lint-less terry cloth towel or other cotton cloth for drying.
A brush for cleaning. Go to the Home Depot, Lowe’s, or whatever, and buy one of those very soft painting pads with a handle. These have a flat base about 7” wide. Be sure to get the one with the foam pad inside that has a very fine and soft cover on the outside. DO NOT use the ones that are foam only. They usually are packaged as fine, medium, and coarse, depending upon the painting intended. For THIS purpose the coarse works the best – as coarse as that might sound! :-) These can be had for about $6-7 and will be the only pad you will need. They are almost the perfect width to span the recorded area of the LP, have a comfortable handle, will NOT scratch, and are easily rinsed and cleaned when you are finished. If you are anal, get two – one for washing and one for rinsing.
A slightly stiffer brush for cleaning stubborn spots. A stiff bristled paint brush or a carbon fiber brush works well for those small spots of guck that you will often find on a used LP – like when someone has placed food-laden fingers or other unmentionables on the vinyl.
A GROOVMASTER. I find this to be an indispensable tool for hand cleaning records. There is a guy in Massachusetts who sells these on E-Bay. Just go there and search under “groovmaster”. It will cost you $25-35 depending on bidding but is worth its weight in gold. You could probably make one, but buying one is easier. The Groovmaster is basically two acrylic discs, each with recessed circular grooves that contain rubber o-rings on both sides. These discs have a threaded rod that runs between them with handles on each end. One side of the discs is for LP’s (larger o-rings), the other for 45’s (smaller o-rings). You put one disc on each side of the record and then screw the handles together. This tool provides ultimate security against getting fluid on the label – you can hold the records straight under running water. Plus, it provides a handle so that you needn’t ever touch the vinyl with fingers while cleaning. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED. I only wish I had the patent on this device.
A dish rack (optional). Use any of the many racks designed for dishes to be placed after washing. Use one that is rubber/plastic coated and has the little channels for holding plates in an upright position.
So, now begins the cleaning. Take your loaf pan and put JUST A SMALL SQUIRT of mild dish washing detergent in the bottom (I use Dawn because it has a grease cutter). Then fill with just warm water and mix. Place the Groovmaster on an LP. You will now have a round handle from which to hold the record. Turn on the faucet so that the water is just warm, not hot. Give the LP a thorough rinse without using any brush – use your spray head if you have one. Then, dip the paint pad in the soap/water solution to get it good and wet. Make a single circular pass around each side of the LP, following the grooves and using light pressure. If you want you can let the soap/water solution “soak” on the LP for a minute or two. Then rinse the LP and the pad. Now, dip the pad back into the soap/water again and, using more firm pressure, work your way around one side of the LP in short circular (with the grooves) scrubbing strokes, following the grooves around the record. When you’ve made a full circuit, rinse the pad, redip in soap/water, and repeat on the other side of the LP. Follow with a THOROUGH rinsing of the LP under the faucet. Use a spray head if you have one. Here, you can also use an additional paint pad to help with the rinsing if you remember to rinse it completely after each side. I find that I do not need to do this using a spray head.
If you have a very stubborn spot on an LP, you can give it particular attention. I have made a solution containing 3 parts water and one part DIRECT vinyl tile cleaner. Or, better yet, use Record Research Deep Cleaner. Put the solution in a spray bottle, “spritz” the affected area, and let it soak awhile. Use the stiffer brush to then gently remove the gunk. Some have said that using an old water pick with this solution also works well. I have even heard of people using wood toothpicks to carefully run with the grooves to remove gunk. Whatever the method, make sure to carefully rinse when finished. Now, some will hold that you should use distilled water as a final rinse because tap water can leave residue. I do not do this because I follow up this cleaning on a VPI machine. If this is the end of the cleaning for you, the use of distilled water as a final rinse might be in order.
After both sides of the LP are cleaned and thoroughly rinsed, remove the Groovmaster and carefully lay the LP toward one end of a large towel that you have spread across a firm flat surface. Fold the towel up over the LP to make it a “sandwich”. Then, use light pressure to blot the LP with the towel. When mostly dry, place the LP in the dish rack until dry or until you are finished cleaning other LP’s. There may still be a hair of lint or two on the LP when finished. If so, use a carbon fiber brush to clean the surface of lint. Then, place the LP in a new, CLEAN inner sleeve of your choice. At this point, try the LP on your rig. If all sounds quiet, that’s it. There are times when two or three cleanings are needed. Don’t give up on an LP if there is still some noise after the first pass. But, if a couple or three of cleanings don’t do the trick, assume groove damage and get another copy. All of this effort will depend on what level of noise you are willing to accept, how easily the LP can be replaced, the value of your stylus, etc., etc.
PART TWO – VACUUM CLEANING
I use a VPI 16.5 as a follow up to STEP ONE for records that started out as very dirty and as the only step for new or relatively clean LPÂ’s. The use of this RCM or any of the others is pretty straightforward, most choices being limited to the fluids used. Personally, I do not like the alcohol-based solutions and have found through MANY trials that the Record Research products are the best in terms of effectiveness and for not leaving a sonic signature behind. I use Record Research fluids, only. I buy the Deep Cleaner (16 oz. - $25) and the Vinyl Wash (32 oz. $25). Never been able to find it cheaper but would love to hear of cheaper sources!
The following assumes a hand cleaning RCM, not the VPI 17, where the cleaning and vacuuming is done by the machine, itself. These machines are great and recommended, though. I just couldnÂ’t cough up the $1K when I bought my used VPI 16.5!
I begin by placing the LP on the platter and screwing down the knurled, threaded keeper. As a side note, I always begin with Side A(1). It may seem silly, but if you are cleaning a number of records and have kids coming in, the phone ringing, etc., it is easy to forget whether you have done one side or another.
First, I apply some Vinyl Wash (VW) to the leading edge of a Discwasher brush (the one with wooden handle and attached pad). Turn on the machine and apply the VW to the LP to collect any small amount of lint or dust and to thoroughly wet the vinyl (recommended before applying the Deep Cleaner (DC)). While still wet, I use a carbon fiber brush to apply DC to the LP and give it a good two or three cleaning spins. While the LP is usually free from serious grunge after STEP ONE, or if new, the DC assures that any mold-release agents are expelled. After the DC is applied, I give the LP one or two vacuum spins.
Then, I like to give the LP a first rinse using the VW on a clean, separate LAST pad. I like the LAST pad better for the rinsing as I think the cleaning has been done and I am not as concerned about getting to the very bottom of the grooves in this step. I apply a generous squirt of VW and give it three rinse revolutions, followed be one or two vacuum spins.
Finally, I repeat this process using another separate LAST pad with a little less VW and then three vacuum spins to get the record good and dry. A little caution here is necessary. The VPI manual states that you should not do too much dry vacuuming so as to avoid record damage and/or static buildup. Let your good judgment be your guide in striking a balance between this and assuring that the record is dry. When satisfied, place the LP in a clean record sleeve.
One note, I always remove the vacuum wand assembly and use the “open hole” to vacuum the wand strips and all cleaning pads after each LP.
One can also try to clean inside of old covers if they contain a lot of dust. Holding the cover upside down and tapping on the spine will do a decent job. If you want to go crazy, I have used an old thin, flat upholstery tool on my vacuum cleaner that I drilled a series of holes along its length. Just be careful not to damage the spine or seams.
There are two other steps than can be done if you want to spend the money and feel it is effective. One is to use LAST Record Preservative – easy to apply while the LP is on the platter AFTER cleaning. The other is GruvGlide which can be applied easily at this point, as well. I will not enter into the debate regarding the merits of either product here, though. To each his or her own on this one!
Cost? I can do about 200 LP’s with the Record Research cleaners. That comes to about two bits per LP. The painting pad cost me $7, the Groovmaster $32, the Discwasher $17, the LAST pads $20, the VPI 16.5 $375. I have cleaned just over 900 LP’s using these materials – about 50 cents per record – with the marginal cost decreasing each time I clean another record. Add another 25 cents for an inner sleeve and we are talking, roughly, $1 per record.
There are MUCH cheaper methods than this, I will grant to you. If you decide to brew your own solutions and/or eschew a RCM, you can get off for much less. However, this method works for me and VERY RARE is the case that I have even minimal surface noise when following this routine. Hope this is of help to someone, anyone!
BTW, I would be remiss when discussing Record Research products if I did not mention the #9 stylus cleaner. It is THE best product for cleaning styli, IMHO.
I've been reading this thread with great delight. I have been cleaning my rag-tag collection with Alcohol and a sponge brush. To my dismay I have read this is not wise. I have many really dirty records, and some sweet ones. UNfortunately I do not know of good sources for record supplies such as new sleeves, cleaners, cleaning machines, cartidges, etc. I've been studying digital and it is cool but lately analog stuff has been falling into my lap. I just picked a reel-to-reel up off the curb on trash day! I must admit it sounds pretty good. I think God is looking out for me because I was just looking for one on Ebay. Or maybe I'm just schizo? But really KUDOs to anyone who can help me get those old records off the shell. I must have a few jems in there. Also, any links to sites where I can evalute my old albums is appreciated.
Great Thread! I recently picked up a used VPI 16 and upgraded it to the 16.5. Thing is, the instructions that came it leave a bit to be desired (basically, turn it on, wet LP& brush, scrub & vacuum a couple turns).
I've developed my own 'ritual' but it's not as involved s some I've read here (although now mine might become more so ;). I use VPI solution and Last preservative. While I've been leaving the LAST treatment on (as my last step) it sounds to me like I should be cleaning the LP once more after I've applied the LAST?
At the end of the cleaning I then replace the orig liner with a new rice paper one and the Album cover in a new plastic sleeve.
Also, my particular VPI has a foam cell mat. I see the replacements are cork. Wouldn't cork retain dirt/grime on the surface (whereas dirt/grime would 'fall'into foam cells)? What kind of mat do new VPI's have and/or what would you recommend as a replacement?
Finally, I use a couple nylon record brushes I had laying around to 'scrub' the LP's. One is somewhat stiff, the other is softer. What kind of 'scrub brush' are the experts using?
After an evening of listening, I'd like to come back to this thread. I still find, that some LPs profit immensely by my cleansing procedure described above both in sound stage and frequency expansion and some simply do not and sound washed out with pun certainly intended. I still do not know, why this is so, but I suspect it must be the vinyl, because those that do not profit, but actually lose in presence and directness are mostly very early stereo LPs. In spite of that, even with records of the late fifties early sixties the ratio of cleansing profit and cleansing detriment is still 4 to 1 in favour of definite improvement. Again, I find though, that in our hobby there are few definite answers and my suspicion of those who have found absolute thruth ( or absolute sound ) has certainly not diminished. To the contrary, it is fun to experiment and to discover..... Cheers,
After 10 years of spending hours cleaning and scrubbing dirty garrage sales records, you will have to pay me to clean another. I stopped buying used records also, unless if they are spotless. I got too old to continue to be anal-retentive!
These 10" LPs are not the typical softer vinyl we know but the stiffer, less yielding vinylite. The LPs are remarkably unworn except for the solvent use. Steam cleaning and brushing may be in order after the various VPI cleanings. My friend suggested pure mineral spirits added to water and fotoflo. Thanks for your suggestions.
(P.S. Honest ebay advertising would also have been helpful).
I agree that some sort of manual cleaning, which might include the steam procedure Sean mentions but must include a velvet brush wet scrub, would be in order. I'm a little unclear on this, but since you talk about a 10" side, are these 78's, or another type of record not made of PVC? If they are shellac, I would think the solvents you used in machine cleaning them are probably responsible for any softened condition that might exist at this point. But if they are PVC, or not really softened chemically, then you likely just need to clean them a little more vigoruosly by hand on a flat surface, maybe with a solution that has some detergent component to it. A lot of the surface noise will stay I'm sure, but you should be able to play the records without accumulating gunk on the stylus.
It is quite possible that the vinyl itself is damaged from repeated plays on an improperly aligned phono system. It would not be beyond comprehension that such a system may have been tracking at too high of a force and literally "carved" its' way through the grooves. If that is the case, there is nothing that you can do correct the situation as the vinyl itself is damaged.
Other than that, it sounds as if you purchase lp's that may be in various conditions. You might want to try a trick that Michael Fremer recently investigated and recommends. That is, using a portable hand steamer to loosen the grit followed up by a thorough scrubbing and a rinse.
I also think that Buggtussel's "vinylzyme gold" record cleaner might be worth checking out for such situations. It is enzyme based and may work on some specific "grime" that other alcohol based cleaners can't remove. Sean >
I cannot get my latest 3 ebay purchased, solvent (probably alcohol) cleaned records clean on my VPI 16.5 with any solution after three tries. They play okay with lots of surface noise (no scratches) but the stylus picks up (I guess) softened or sticky dust/dirt by the end of a 10" side. I clean the stylus with ExtremePhono cleaner which works 100% of the time. I don't know of cleaners of previously solvent cleaned records (I have about 40 or 50 of 17,000 LPs, on 78s, those are gone as they melted when someone "cleaned" them).
By Jove, me thought, thou didst protest too much, but now sweet truth is flowing from your lips as honeydew in spring. A pox on all, who forthwith doubt your words.
To be perfectly honest, let me admit something I have never owned up to in public before: In my rig, I have never been able to consistently identify any fluctuation in the sound I could hang my hat on when adjusting VTA or anti-skating. There, I said it! (Not that I ever claimed otherwise.) I feel so much better now. It is true, however, that the last time I futzed around with these settings, I was in a different listening room, with my old amp and phono preamp, my TT resting on a different shelf arrangement, and hadn't yet installed my tonearm damper, so I suppose I should try and belly up to the bar once again. (However, you are inescapably, irrefutably, ascendantly triumphant Detlof, inasmuch as I *have* copped to hearing differences stemming from changes in VTF, loading, clamping, damping, etc., so I do verily protesteth too much ado about nada in my merely music-loving conceits. But I want and need to, every once in a while - otherwise,...??)
To wit, dear Zaike, 'tis not the unctions which do tell on you, 'tis cartridge-tonearm settings which forsooth betrayeth you as hooked through and through....
How can you say such things about me Detlof, when I commonly play my records, after their initial cleaning (if - and this is truly shocking - if I even feel compelled to give them one!), forevermore without once again ever subjecting them to any wet treatment? Scripted-postum: Perchance yea, forsooth taken.
Never came across this thread before, but now that I have, I am sure as I never have been that I am NOT truly an audiophile. Free at last, free at last, thanks to all of you, I'm free at last!
(FLASH! Just as I finished typing the above, my girlfriend walked in the room and asked, "Don't all of you little audio-nerds get worried about each other sometimes?" I love her, I do...)
Sean, I just cannot give you a definite answer. I've tried a lot, incl. homebrew and I am more than confused. They all do something to the sound, but according to my ears, the results are anything but uniform. Some lps seem to improve, some not, even seem to get get worse. I like the RRL with classical music, but sometimes only after a retreatment with my concotion of trifluor-trichlorethane and molybden-liquid,(ex sctratch fixer) but then again, sometimes it seems to screw up the soundstage. I don't know NG, never tried Disc Doctor, but VPI is waiting on the shelve and next on my list. Sorry to be of no help.
Detlof: What cleaning fluids have you tried other than the Nitty Gritty that you mentioned ? I am curious as to how the VPI and Disc Doctor record cleaning fluids stack up against the NG and and Record Research Labs. Any comments ? Obviously, others are more than welcome to chime in with their experiences. Sean >
Well, I've been busy experimenting and my new findings are still not carved in stone but here goes: The RR treatment seems excellent for large orchestral works such as RCA shaded dogs with Reiner and the Chicago Philharmonics. There is not only a noticeable difference in width and depth of soundstage between treated and untreated sides of the same LP, but the overall sound seems richer and more lush. Strings and horns especially just seem to have more bloom. A contrary experience was with an old Verve Stereo with Ella Fitzgerald, "Clap hands here comes Charlie", which I had newly bought and where my findings were quite similar to the old Satchmo LP I had written about before. The one side, which I had treated, sounded fine, but there was no real definition of the soundspace of the accompanying instruments. Ella's voice and the rest of the band seemed to be on just one horizontal plane. There was no depth to write home about. The untreated side, though generally more dry in its rendering, showed definite layering of the different instruments, with Ella firmly placed in her own soundspace. The rendering was less lush, but in a sense more realistic with the various instruments playing around her. Also her voice was better definied, much like Armstrongs'voice seemed better to me untreated. So I am still puzzled and will keep on trying to find out if its all in the mind or if there is a reasonable basis to my findings. Cheers to all,
Albert, thankyou for your excellent reasoning and your extraordinary experience, which you so openly share with us. Much food for thought indeed! Yes, I'll keep on experimenting and will post it here in due course. Warm regards to all!
Detlof, that is a very interesting situation that has happened to you. I am not certain I have any better explanation, but would like to offer the following.
Usually, only the best new releases, such as the 45 RPM reissues from Classic Records, do not benefit from a cleaning with the RR fluids. Perhaps the extra care afforded to these specialty LP's make cleaning either unnecessary, or at least (in some cases) less important.
Perhaps the old LP you had was pressed differently on one side, as you suggested. Another more likely situation is that it was overplayed. When that LP was new, and popular, many people were still using Scotch tape to fasten coins to the turntables tonearm. This was often the remedy when a new stylus was needed. It would only require one time with an auto play turntable left unattended to destroy the delicate material. I know of times in my youth when families left an LP on as background music, letting it play for hours on the same side. A brand new turntable with the best cartridge will damage an LP if that policy is followed. Back then, it would take little more than once with a coin taped in place.
Please continue to test, especially with newer and more predictable pressings. The RR fluid is manufactured from lab grade water, and VERY little cleaner. The active ingredient is carbon based, and contains no alcohol, detergents or lubricants. If properly vacuumed (VPI) I cannot imagine that there is much left except the vinyl surface.
It is possible that the LP was treated with a silicone spray or cloth (popular long ago) and the through washing removed all the coatings that had accumulated. In theory, that should have provided an improvement, but as with all things in high end, the strangest things do happen. Please keep us up to date on your progress, and thanks for sharing the test results so far.
Life IS difficult and that of an audiophile often more! Why you may ask? Well, thanks to the Albert's kindness I was happily testing the RR unctions and found them to be really convincing in giving a better soundstage both in width and depth and a beter clarity of the overall sound.... until, well, until I struck upon an old, old Louis Armstrong Stereo LP at a garage sale, eagerly took it home and played the first side, just after brushing it off a bit. I fell into a state of bliss, as I heard the old trumpet-genius's voice rasping away between the speakers, savouring the brilliance of the horns, the tapping of feet, the backstage murmurings. Then I gave side two the RR treatment and truly the magic was gone. The voice lost its bite, the contours of it were truly washed out ( pun intended), the soundstage though bigger, was much less precise in the delineation of instruments. A sad disappointment. So what is the explanation ? I don't know. It may be, that side one and side two were mastered differently, though I doubt that. Perhaps its a question of the vinyl. As I said, it was a very early stereo LP. Has anybody got an explanation? Anyway, I generally have found, that cleaning Lps thoroughly before playing is beneficial to its rendering along several important parameters. This is the first time, that I was forced to realise, that this is obviously not always the case. Maybe those guys who maintain, that washing Lp's is detrimental to the sound, are not as tinnyeared of preculiar as I was tempted to assume. Regards,
Longplate, I'm with you on the Linn Issue. The fact that they have sold this line of BS through the years is an amazing marketing acomplishment. The only so-so construction and nightmarishly difficult adjustment setup, coupled with the lack of the 45RPM speed is unacceptable, in my view. The table is too lightweight in construction for the asking price. It's fundamental resonance ,if I recall, was too high at around 8 or 9 Hz. Detlof, your point was also valid about the table sounding better than the mid 70s competition. I remember the shows where they would smoke all the competition (mostly japanese direct drive). It was only $525.00 back then.(They used Kieth Monks flip top tonearms for ease of comparison..marketing geniouses) Ivor's philosophy has been a radically different one, but its more based on Religion than anything else IMO.........Frank
Detlof, I think Igor really brought it to everybodys attention with some Barnum % Baileyesqe promoting.But the first LP12 was little more then a refined AR. Realize at one time I had a full blown LP12..Ekos,lingo, but could never warm up to their cartridges. I got rid of the table..won't mention what I'm using now, not being flame proof.What's that Canadian guys name?...there was just a thread about his website. Anyway, he said the LP12 was the most overated product in the history of hifidum. In a post a couple months ago I said Linn was second to only Bose in marketing...I stand by that.
Linn doesn't believe in cleaning the stylus, rega doesn't even believe in cleaning the records. I use a stylus cleaner, but not a stylus preservative. Mr Shagano says it's a no-no. Any good stylus cleaner should completely evaporate before you play a record.
Oh heck, those typos. I have to wait, not to war, ain't a freebootin' poirate, Oi ain't , rahter just patiently waiting. Longplate....I suppose all views from the inside of what will you, are probably disillusioning. I'm a linnetik-heretic too, though I think Tiefenbrun was the first to show, that turntables matter, wasn't he?
Steveline is right. I used to manage a store that sold Linn and that was the first time I saw the putty. But not being a Linnie I would not do anything a Linnie would do. I'm coming out now and saying I am anti-linnetik (there goes my rating). I will admit that after looking at cartridges under the scope, those that were puttied were cleaner. Maybe some of you could feel my pain...a tube lover in Linn land. Nothing gave me more satisfaction then converting a Linnster over to tubes. Someday I'll start a thread about Linn....a view from the inside. It will be a shocking, disturbing expose.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
