@mijostyn The problem with just buying new LP's is the selection. There are numerous great LP's that have not been reissued, or are no longer available. I do agree with you that the likelihood of damage and wear is far greater with the used LP. However, to just restrict oneself to only new vinyl is going to mean leaving a lot of great music behind, IMO.
If one does some research and gains some experience in buying used LP's, one can generally get good condition vinyl that is used. There are always condition issues that can crop up, but again IME, these tend to be less common if one knows what to look for. |
@stager There is some concern that using alcohol on LP's can be quite detrimental. Alcohol is a drying agent, as such the potential to dry the vinyl and make it more brittle is a possibility. Possible damage to the groove wall would be the result. |
I have a Kirmuss on loan right now. The Kirmuss method is as mentioned above, lengthy and involved. Therefore, i decided I wanted to see if the machine worked well with just distilled water and nothing else. At first, I had thought that the lack of drying would be the main issue, but this has proven not to be the case! The LP's don't get that wet, which really surprises me. The application of a good eye glass optic microfibre cloth seems to solve the drying issue. The problem is that the machine is not exactly a precision device, as such the potential for damage to the LP's as you insert and remove them from the spinner is considerable. To that, the results with just plain distilled water are nothing extraordinary. A generally clean record will come out a tad cleaner than before, but as Kirmuss points out, to really clean the grooves, one needs to do a multiple step process with multiple US insertions. This is a royal PITA. I am not even sure if the application of something like Gruv Glide will not give one the same result on a vacuum cleaned LP!
Then we have the heating issue, which has been touched on above, although I have noticed that the warmer the water, the better the result--to a degree. Clearly at some point the water is too hot and the machine needs to rest. Kirmuss doesn't believe in drying in the machine, which I think is his way of copping out and not figuring out a way for the machine to do this. BUT the bigger issue, as it turns out, is the risk to the LP on insertion and removal, get it slightly wrong and you can easily damage your precious vinyl...which gives me considerable pause and concern in regards to this machine! |
I cleaned a number of Blue Note originals ( some of them scratched and therefore VG to VG+ copies) on the Kirmuss. I used only distilled water, nothing else. The results were interesting, a slightly cleaner looking LP, but SQ was exactly the same as prior US clean. ( I had cleaned all of these on my prior VPI 16.5).
Here's the thing, IF you are collecting older pressings, the probability that they are scratched and noisy is very high, no record cleaner can address this.Period. The Kirmuss method will not stop the record from sounding noisy if it is scratched or otherwise marred. Nothing will, IME. |
IMO, Ultrasonic cleaning is definitely an improvement over a basic wet vacuum cleaning. I had a very noisy RCA Direct to Disc that I had assumed was beyond hope, yet after the US cleaning, it was much quieter and is now very impressive. I do think the US cleaning is a great way to go, question is which machine and method... |
@antinn Thanks, that is very informative. One thing that I think is missing in this conversation is that IF one is buying old records ( flea market as an example) the potential for noise is going to be high, regardless of the cleaning regimen. Simply because the grooves are likely to be damaged beyond repair. Damaged by scratches, chunks missing, warping and the like. Nothing to do with detritus in the grooves! Therefore, IMO the regimen of deep cleaning ala the Kirmuss method, while probably a little helpful in reducing the overall noise floor, will do absolutely nothing to getting at the root cause of the issue, the damaged groove. OTOH, with vinyl that is say VG++ or better, the regimen would possibly give some benefit, BUT I believe the increase is fairly marginal compared to a simple US clean in distilled water. Plus, when we read about the fact that the frequency of the ultrasonic means different size bubbles, ( in the case of the Kirmuss at 40Khz--and therefore a larger bubble that cannot deeply impact the groove) this IMO goes a long way to explain why all other machines that are using higher frequency waves do not need the same regimen as the Kirmuss to perform what they do.
So, the big problem with old records is really not the buildup of residue, but the likelihood of poor handling and damage by the prior owner(s) who were using worn styluses and didn't have too much problem walking on their records with steel tipped boots...... |
@antinn Having collected LP's for decades, I can tell you that the typical used jazz and rock album is going to have significant issues..primarily from scratching and groove damage ( VG-VG++). You damage the groove with pits and scratches ( your definition of deep?) and the LP will be noisy, no matter what you do with cleaning. Unfortunately, the typical rare Beatles LP, or the typical Blue Note Lex Ave or 47 W 63rd pressing will be groove damaged.( the vast majority being VG- to VG+)..and showing scratches. Some deeper than others ( but they will all sound, regardless of the stylus shape you are using.) Your definition of deeply scratched is a relative term. IME all groove damage is audible, regardless of the stylus shape..and no amount of cleaning will alleviate this. |
@oldaudiophile You bring up some really good points. I agree with you, spending $3K on a single slot US cleaner is a real struggle. When the Degritter was out for its pre-sale testing with beta testers, I was under the impression that it was going to be priced in the $1K area!! Clearly some USA marketing guru got involved and the price was increased substantially. The new Humminguru US cleaner from China is on my radar, and its price could be sub $1K..easily. OTOH, I also know that once the ’reps’ in the USA get their hands on the thing, it will rise to the sky...:0(
You ask how others have come to terms with the pricing...While I cannot talk for others, I have voted with my wallet and as such i have NOT bought the Degritter. I suspect if enough of us did exactly this, the pricing of a lot of these 'high end' products would be modified accordingly. |
I just finished demoing a Kirmuss machine. The Kirmuss method of adding a surfactant and multiple sweeps of the US was not something that I was particularly interested in doing. My a'phile friend who let me use the Kirmuss does use the Kirmuss method, and I do think that there are some benefits to it ( although whether they are worth the risk to both stylus ( if you don't get all of the surfactant off) and record(s) ( if you have a problem with the slot load after multiple loads!) is questionable). I used the machine just with DW and nothing else,I also just did one sweep per record. The results were not that bad, and definitely better than I could get with my VPI 16.5 and various MoFi cleaners. OTOH, the concern that I had, and still have, for this machine is the possibility of its rather poor slot design damaging the vinyl. That alone discounted the Kirmuss for me. The ability to clean and increase the SQ on a generally clean and non-scratched LP was certainly there...just not enough for me to risk any precious vinyl damage. |
