miller carbon, The stereo setup is Ayre 5 Twenty series digital hub, preamp, and amp with KEF Ref 1s. Source is mostly Roon playing downloaded, ripped, Qobuz and Tidal files, with occasional discs spun on the Ayre DX-5 DSD.
auxinput, The Bryston SP-3 was paired with 3 Parasound JC 1 monoblocks for LCR driving KEF Ref 107/2s and 204/2C, and 4 KEF LS50s for surrounds driven by A 23s. The JC 1s are boxed up ready to sell; the 107/2s have been given away.
An alternative to a receiver might be using the SP-3 and adding another A 23 to obtain 6 channels, but that defeats downsizing. I’m undecided about the front LR speakers for HT, but another pair of LS50s is a possibility. I’m alternating between Audio Engine A2+ and NHT Super Zero now.
The only thing that gives me pause about a receiver is that I do enjoy opera on Blu-ray, and, of course, Legends of Jazz, but that might be done by the DX-5 DSD to the stereo setup-- video goes directly to the projector from the disc player.
|
I think I've decided to try the pair of Parasound A 23s with KEF LS50s in 4.1 with or without the Bryston SP-3, using Cox TV and the Oppo 105D or 205 as sources. I already have all the pieces for the proposed setup. If I'm satisfied with the A 23 for front LR, I can buy another A 23 for rear surround. |
After restarting my memory function, I recalled I have tired the LS50s with an A 23 amp and thought the sound a bit wimpy. LS50s with an A21 sounded fine, and they would undoubtedly sound fine with the JC 1 monoblocks.
Tim, you're trying to move me back to where I was before I decided to downsize. |
Tim,
Class D amps are an attractive alternative to the A 23s. Can you recommend specific models of Nord or Wyred 4 Sound. I'm not going to reinstall a center channel, so it's 2, 4, or 6 channels of amplification driving 8Ω LS50s.
db
|
What about a NAD M22 amp for front LR LS50s? Then add multichannel Class D amp for surround and rears.
|
Tim,
I read several rave reviews of the NAD M22 this afternoon. Your recommendation pushed me over the threshold to buy a demo unit offered on Audiogon for $1400.
Current Cox TV is 2 channel, so surround would be limited to Blu-ray and SACD. I’m still thinking about whether to use the Bryston SP3 -- it may be redundant with the Oppo 205. I think I'll reserve the Ayre DX-5 DSD for use with the Ayre stereo setup.
db |
Tim,
I'm not certain Cox TV is only 2 channel. I've been taking HDMI directly to the projector and RCA to either an Audio Engine 2+ or NAD C 328. With DirecTV I took HDMI to an Oppo that split it into 7.1 audio and video HDMI outputs. I'll reinstall the Oppo 205 when I install the M22. and use the Parasound A23s for surround until I get 4 channels of Class D amplification.
I felt like an energy scofflaw running a Bryston SP3. Oppo 205, Parasound JC 2 BP, 3 JC 1 monoblocks, and 2 A 23s to watch TV, but in my zeal to downsize I may have thrown out the baby with the bath water.
db |
Tim,
We live in Montecito, a small town adjacent to Santa Barbara , where combating global warming is taken very seriouosly.
From the photo used for the listing it appears to be a later version M22 with multiple screened ventilation ports in the top rather than louvers. Makes me wonder how hot the thing runs.
db
|
I ordered a pair of NAD C 268s to replace the Parasound A 23s for driving KEF LS50s side and rear surrounds. So the lineup for HT will be Cox TV, Oppo 205, NAD M22 and C 268 driving 6 LS50s, and pairs of Velodyne HGS-15s and 10s with SMS-1 bass manager. For music it's Ayre DX-5 DSD disc player, QX-5/20 digital hub, KX-5/20 preamp and VX-5/20 amp driving KEF Ref 1s.
db |
Tim,
Both setups are in the same rack in the media room, but share no connections.
Our living room has a music setup comprised of a microRendu/Ayre Codex combination that sources files from Roon, and an Ayre A7e integrated amp (remotely selectable inputs but no preamp) driving KEF LS50s, a small setup with excellent sound.
As you may know, the small town of Montecito has more than its share of celebrities to honor.
db
|
Tim,
1. That’s the setup I moved away from with the Parasound preamp and amps. The Ayre preamp and amp drive the KEF Ref 1s. I don’t want to use them to watch TV, so the HT and music setups are separate. How can you connect two amps to one speaker?
2. I have a plan, but the HGS-15s have yet to be repaired.
The NAD C 328 I’m using now for TV stays cool to the touch.
db |
Tim,
The Cox receiver has HDMI that I'll take to the Oppo where it will be split into video and audio. Video will go directly to the projector, audio to the NAD amps. I'm pretty confident audio will be at least 5.1. When I wrote that Cox TV audio was 2 only channel I had misremembered that the limitation was video, no 4 K video.
db
|
Tim.
The projector is not 4K, but I used the Oppo 205 with DirecTV and the video quality was excellent. I'll use the 205 with Cox when the M22 is installed next week. and reconnect the Velodyne SMS-1 and HGS-10s with crossover at 80 Hz with 4th order slope.
db |
1 & 2 probably full range; 3 not yet taken to LA
|
I installed the NAD M22 amp today, sourced via balanced analog from an Oppo 205 and driving a pair of KEF LS50s. I've yet to connect the subs or NAD C 268 surround amps. I started with the Time Out SACD; the stereo sound is excellent. Kal Rubinson's rave review of the M22 in Stereophile seems justified.
I'm awaiting a pair of 15' Mogami cables from LA Pro Audio to connect the surrounds, and I'm looking for my RCA splitter cable to connect the sub out of the 205 to the Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager.
db
|
Tim,
I've got to do a lot of comparative listening, but what I've heard so far from the 205/M22/LS50 chain has led me to question the need for the Ayre 5/20/Ref 1 chain. It's that good. I've played CDs and SACDs ranging from jazz (Take Five) to baroque (Corelli), Blu-rays from Legends of Jazz to Aida; the sound is superb for all.
db
|
After a lot more listening I’ve decided to use the Oppo 205, NAD M22 & C 268 Class D amps with 6 LS50s and a pair of Velodyne HGS-15s for HT, and the Ayre 5/Twenty series with KEF Ref 1s and a pair of HGS-10s for music. But I don’t really sense the need for any subs with Ref 1s as my preference for classical, baroque, and jazz grows stronger, so I may use the 4 subs for HT.
db
|
Tim,
1 Probably about 5 hours a day for HT
2 About 3 hours a day for music
3. If there were a good way to switch amps I’d like to use the KEF Ref 1s for both music and HT, because re your item 6 the Refs 1s are given preference and the LS50s are in less than an ideal location
4 Optimum bass for HT; the adequacy of bass from the Ref 1s has surprised me
5 Vastly different energy efficiency: about 400 watts for music, 50 for HT excluding the projector
6 See 3 above
db |
Tim,
What you describe is pretty much my previous setup with Parasound JC 2 BP preamp, JC 1 monoblocks, and KEF Ref 107/2s. It would be even easier to implement than you suggest. Simply take the balanced LR output from the Oppo 205 to the Ayre preamp rather than to the NAD M22, and select it for HT. That would use the Ayre preamp, amp, and Ref 1s for front HT. RCA surrounds from the Oppo would go to the NAD C 268s driving LS50s for side and rear surrounds. The Oppo would manage the subs along with the SMS-1s for acoustic room correction. Although I’ve been happy with the sound for HT, I’ll try the Ayre/Ref 1 setup, because it’s so easy to do.
I have no aversion to using 4 subs. I just haven’t hauled the HGS-15s to LA yet. I’m 83 and the subs are too heavy for me to lift so I need to have them taken downstairs, put into the back of our MB wagon, then trek down PCH to LA.
The Ayre amp does have balanced/unbalanced input switches.
Switching between the Ayre and NAD amps to drive the Ref 1s is complicated, because both the Ayre and Ref 1s support pairs of lugs for biwiring whereas the NAD does not.
db
|
Tim,
It occurred to me that in addition to connecting the balanced output from the Oppo to the Ayre preamp I could connect the single-ended output to the NAD M22. But then the Oppo can no longer trigger the NAD, because I don't want audio from both the Ref 1s and LS50s. That's an inconvenience but it would save energy when just watching TV -- the reason behind two setups.
db
|
Tim,
I use the Oppo 205 and M22 for watching TV, and the Ayre QX-5 digital hub, KX-5 preamp, and VX-5 amp for music. I also have an Ayre DX-5 DSD disc player. The source for music is mostly Roon to the QX-5 via ethernet. I've decided to connect the Oppo balanced output to the Ayre preamp, unbalanced to the NAD M22 and C 268 amps, and disconnect the trigger from the Oppo to the M22 to make it easy to switch between the two setups for HT other than TV. The Oppo will connect to the Velodyne SMS-1s, so subs will be available HT.
Indeed the 5-Twenty series Ayre stuff has a special sound that makes music seem to just flow without electronic intervention. Surprisingly the microRendu/Ayre Codex and A7e driving LS50s share a good deal of that Ayre magic
I appreciate your help in guiding my thinking this through. I've been involved with audio since the early '50s, but a poke always helps.
db
|
Correction: The last sentence of the first paragraph should be the KX-5 will connect to the SMS-1s, not the Oppo.
|
Tim,
By connecting the Ayre KX-5 to the Velodyne SMS-1 the subs will be available for either music or HT. The NAD M22 will be used with a pair of LS50s for watching Cox TV. Side and rear surround will be available for either music or HT with a pair of NAD C 268s driving 4 LS50s.
db |
I had forgotten about the need for a pass-through setting to match the levels of front LR and surrounds, but it turns out the Ayre KX-5 does that nicely, defeating the volume control only for selected input(s), leaving Ayre's vaunted volume ladder intact for the other inputs.
db |
I finally got around to connecting the subwoofers. I discovered only one of the Velodyne HGS-10s and one of the HGS-15s are functional. I have a third HGS-10 somewhere that I might try. I had forgotten that the Ayre preamp has only left and right outputs, so I really should run pairs of subs, because I don't know how the LF signal is distributed. Tomorrow I'll set crossovers and so forth.
I doubt the HGS-10 is worth repairing.
db
|
I realized with a bit more afterthought that I had setup the subs incorrectly by using two Velodyne SMS-1 bass managers. The outputs from the preamp need go through a single SMS-1 so it can provide acoustic room correction for the total sub configuration.
I don't have a stake in the debate about whether stereo is perceived below 100 Hz. I was concerned about differences in level between the two channels, a concern probably not well founded.
db
|
I connected the Ayre KX-5 to the Velodyne SMS-1 via a balanced Y cable. The fourth order crossover is set at 80 Hz; the level is set so I’m not aware of the Velodyne HGS-10 & 15 as sound sources, and the double bass is not overdone with a Bill Evans trio track, but when a pedal note of the Reiner reading of Saint-Seans 3rd comes along the vibration can be felt. For some reason I don’t really understand, the depth of the sound stage seems enhanced as well. I listen to a lot of jazz and baroque, and, although cognitive dissonance is too strong to imagine a large orchestra in the room, I can easily imagine a trio or quartet in the room -- I’ve heard enough recitals to know the sound well.
I had intended to connect the Bryston SP3 to the SMS-1 for surround -- the SP3 provides nice surround setup capabilities. but if the KX-5 is used in bypass mode, both it and the SP3 shouldn’t be sending a signal to the SMS-1. I haven’t got this figured out.
Tim, I’ll try to take the other HGS-15 in for repair next week.
db
|
Tim,
The SP3 has yet to be installed, and the system is as you describe. Adding the SP3 provides two advantages: (1) When the DC Off-Set problem of Ayre DX-5 DSD is fixed, I'll replace the Oppo 205 with the Ayre as disc player, but the Ayre is not a quasi processor like the Oppo; (2) The SP3 can use 15' balanced cables to the NAD C 268 amps. In furtherance of using the SP3, I re-read several rave reviews.
I just discovered my other HGS-15 is not reliably powering-on with LF signal, so that's two HGS-15 to take for repair and perhaps one HGS-10. Wonder if it's time for new subs, but the Velodyne have served so well for decades.
db |
Tim,
In a pervious setup I was able to compare the sound from the Ayre DX-5 DSD to that from the Oppo 205; they both went balanced to a Parasound JC 2 BP/JC 1 monoblocks driving KEF Ref 107/2s. I preferred the sound from the Ayre -- that Ayre magic of music just seeming to flow. I thought it was very similar to that from my beloved C-5xeMP, but Charles Hansen claimed the DX-5 DSD a bit superior to the C-5, a bit inferior to the QX-5 Twenty. It was the C-5 that introduced me to the Ayre sound, and I was hooked.
I've decided to take the two HGS-15s and the HGS-10 to LA for repair. In the meantime, I'm buying something called a Velodyne 12 Optima, the line just below the DD that also uses the high gain servo system. It's only a couple hundred bucks and located in Santa Barbara. I'll use that with the functional HGS-10 until the repaired units return -- I know I have another HGS-10 somewhere but I haven't located it.
db |
wspohn, I suppose switching speaker cables is not too much of a PITA if you use banana cables, but it seems a bother if you switch often.
Tim, would using 3 subs instead of 4 violate a distribution principle? A single SMS-1 supports 3 equalized outputs, but you need to daisy chain to another SMS-1 for additional outputs. I have 2 SMS-1s, and they are thin enough to stack nicely if daisy-chaining is required. In the past, I've used on SMS-1 for the pair of HGS-15s, the other for the HGS-10s, but the that been in separate rooms. Since I have only two functioning subs right now daisy-chaining hasn't been an issue -- the HGS-15 only functions when I switch it to on rather than its audio-detect mode.
db |
Tim,
Essentially one system for both music and HT, except stereo doesn't go through the Oppo or Bryston; it's strait Ayre. TV uses the Oppo and Bryston, but substitutes the NAD M22 for the Ayre gear, and NHT Zero+s for the KEF Ref 1s. One could rightly argue the Bryston is superfluous until the Ayre DK-5 DSD replaces the Oppo 205.
I mostly play stereo and TV, so little hardship to give up HT for simplification. Then it would be two systems: Ayre for stereo, Oppo and NAD for TV.
db
|
Tim,
Currently thinking of a solution to a problem that entails using one SMS-1 with the HGS-15s for HT and the other SMS-1 with the HGS-10s for music. That is, Bryston SP3 to a SMS-1 for HT, Ayre KX-5/20 to the other for music, with no sharing. That would be counter to the array concept, but would simplify setup. I may have enough HGS-10s that with the Optima 12, I could muster 3 & 3. Of course, that's after the two HGS-15s and HGS-10 are returned from repair.
db
|
Tim,
Last night my wife declared the vocal clarity of the NAD M22 paired with the NHT Zero+ inadequate for TV, so I think my idea of an energy efficient system for TV may be out. We instead will use the KEF Ref 1s with the Ayre preamp and amp and whatever source is selected: TV, Roon endpoint (Ayre), or disc player (Ayre or Oppo). That also solves the sub woofer array problem; there will be 2 HGS-15s and 2 HGS-10s after repairs. It's time to reprogram the Harmony One.
I will explore the Audioengine 2+ for TV audio -- my wife has previously been satisfied with its vocal clarity, the speakers are low enough to clear the bottom the projection screen, and I think it can connect directly to the Oppo, perhaps via USB.
db
|
Tim,
I prefer db.
The Audioengine 2+ worked out well for TV, so the system for music will remain Ayre preamp and amp to KEF Ref 1s, sourced by the Ayre digital hub or Ayre disc player. This system will be supplemented by the Bryston SP-3 for distributing surround channels to a pair of Class D NAD amps that drive KEF LS50s side and rear speakers. Output from the Ayre preamp goes to the master SMS-1 that's daisy-chained to a slave SMS-1.
I'm currently using Cox TV through the Oppo 205 to the Audioengine, but tomorrow I'll try Cox TV directly to the AE. I plan to use the Oppo 205 in another setup.
db |
Cox TV direct to the Audioengine 2+ failed because the AE remote didn't control volume, so the AE will be Zone 2 from the Bryston SP3, making it easy to switch from the main setup up to an energy efficient TV only setup.
The SP3 has no role for stereo, which is strait Ayre, but for surround the source passes through the SP3 via HDMI and from the SP3 to a by-pass input of the Ayre preamp via balanced analog. It took a lot of churning with help from folks on this thread, especially Tim. but I think I've achieved a system that does everything I want.
db
|
Cox TV via Zone 2 from the Bryston SP3 to the Audioengine 2+ is the solution I sought for energy efficient TV. It uses the volume control of the SP3 but completely circumvents the rest of the HT setup. Unexpected is the ability to play the Cox music channels directly to the AE 2+, and the discovery that its sound is pretty damn good for music. It won't fool you into thinking you're listening to the Ayre 5/20 series digital hub, preamp, amp and KEF Ref 1s, but then its MSRP is about $200 vs about $4K for the Ayre/KEF stuff -- of course that's without the SP3 that had an MSRP about $10K.
Glad I bought the Ayre gear and SP3 used, so MSRP didn't apply.
db
|
I concur with caphill; the same disc played on the Ayre DX-5 DSD and Oppo 205 sounds better on the Ayre, perhaps even better than when played on my Ayre C-5xeMP, the component that introduced me to Ayre.
Tim, I’ve delivered a Velodyne HGS-10 and -15 to George Meyer in LA. Turns out the other HGS-15 functions as it should, as does the other HGS-10. According to George, those HGS models are fine subs.
db
|
