Radikal Linn LP12 or Palmer 2.5?

Thanks very much for your reply, daveyf. Really appreciate it.  I hope to hear the full spec LP12 as well before making the call, but there will be so many variables between that experience and the Palmer experience (e.g., different cartridge, electronics, speakers, room, and month) that I don’t know how meaningful it will be.

All I know at this point is that there were quite a few high end turntables at the audio show I attended (you would know the names), and most of them didn’t make much of an impression on me. The one standout exception was the Palmer room, which I returned to three times and was very favorably impressed each and every time. I can’t quite explain what made it so compelling, but everything about the performances had that very direct “suspended in time” feeling one gets at a particularly good live performance.  Hopefully, the top of the line LP12 will be able to accomplish this as well. (Or maybe, hopefully not - since that would make my decision a lot easier!)

So, xagwell, what did you think of the difference between your LP12 setup (which is very similar to mine) and the maxed out version your dealer demonstrated?  Dramatic or incremental improvement?

Hi again, daveyf.  If I understood xagwell’s post, what he heard was the maxed out LP12 (Radikal/Keel/Ekos SE/Kandid - each of which would be an upgrade to my LP12).  That’s why I was interested in how it compared to the level of LP12 he currently has (which is very similar to my current model). I’m really curious  about xagwell’s impression of the top of the line Linn rig since that is what I will probably go with (should I choose to stay with Linn rather than take the Palmer 2.5 / Audio Origami PU7 path).  That said, your comments on Linn’s upgrade philosophy make perfect sense to me and are very helpful.  Thanks again for your input.

Thanks, daveyf.  I’ve heard about the LP12’s incompatibility with certain types of arms (SME arms are often used as an example). That’s why I will stick with my Ekos or, more likely, upgrade to an Ekos SE, rather than take my chances with another brand (though when I first bought the LP12 many moons ago it was fitted with a Rega RB300 to good effect).

  Likewise, if I go with the Palmer I will most likely buy it with the Origami arm since that is what the manufacturer recommends and because that was the arm in play when I first heard the Palmer and was so impressed by it.  Again, it’s hard to sort out all the synergistic factors that made that experience so positive since it was a combination of the TT, the arm, the cartridge (d/k), the electronics (Vinnie Rossi), the speakers (Harbeth), the room, and probably my mood at the time.  My associated equipment is different and my mood is ever-changing, so ultimately my decision will be something of a crap shoot. But what else is new about this nutty hobby!

Hi daveyf.  Happy New Year to you! 

Just thought I would circle back here with an update. I think I’ve read (at least twice) just about everything there is to read on the internet about the top of the line Linn and Palmer 2.5 turntables.  I hope to hear the LP12 in a few days and, unless it really blows me away, I think I will be going with the Palmer.  Ultimately, I think the determining factor is that I’m just ready for a change. I recently switched from all Naim electronics after 30 happy years, and am now am very happy with a different type of presentation. Likewise, I moved from a Linn CD player and Linn speakers (again, I was very happy with both for decades) to other brands that make me happy as well - in a different way. So now I’m thinking it may be time to cut the Linn cord altogether and finally step away from my beloved LP12.

I think your advocacy for the Sondek on various forums is the main reason I have taken so long to make up my mind.  (As far as I can tell, you are the only English-speaking person in the world who has done a direct comparison between the current (near) top-of-the-line LP12 and the Palmer/Origami combo who has taken the time to comment on the experience!)

To that point, you have said that the Palmer  was more comparable to Linn’s lower tier Majik model, and that “the LP12 was better at portraying dynamic swings, more precise in its imaging and depth portrayal, better at the high frequency reproduction and at least equivalent in its bass reproduction.” You have also mentioned that the Linn particularly bested the Palmer on jazz recordings.

About two thirds of my fairly extensive vinyl collection is classic acoustic jazz, so this last comment particularly caught my attention. However, I am hoping that the recent improvements that have been made to the Palmer (an upgraded main bearing, motor, and power supply - now called the Palmer 2.5i) will close that gap somewhat. 

Anyway, as I think I mentioned previously, I consider myself very fortunate and truly blessed to have a “problem” like this!  I’m pretty sure there is not a wrong decision to be made here (including, perhaps, the possibility of the Linn deck with the Origami arm). We’ll see.  In any case, thanks yet again for your prior input. It has been most thought provoking and helpful.

Regards,
latenitecity

Hi daveyf,

Hope all is well with you.  My turntable quest was derailed for a while due to other priorities, but I’m back in the hunt and wanted to share my latest experiences. 

I had an opportunity to hear the full-mod LP12 and found it to be a slightly pinched and restrained, which surprised me. It turns out that the cartridge (the Kandid) had only a few hours on it, so I probably need to do a second audition.

In the meantime, various reviews led me to believe that an AMG Giro might be another contender. I found a dealer but he only had the higher-priced Viella 12 available for audition, which reportedly has the same characteristics as the Giro - just “somewhat better.”  So I gave it a listen (with an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze) and it was very good - no question - but, frankly, not as good as the reviews led me to expect. 

I asked the dealer about the Palmer 2.5 and he said he carried it, but (unfortunately) not for audition.  However, he could demo a table that was “clearly better” than any of the aforementioned decks.

Enter the (somewhat unfortunately named) Dr. Feickert Woodpecker with the same Ortofon cartridge.  I listened to about 8 varied tracks (jazz quartet, modern big band, Albert King, The Rite of Spring, etc.) and it never failed to produce a completely compelling and enjoyable performance. Everything sounded interesting and musically right. I really liked this thing a lot.

So now my happy predicament has taken an unexpected turn, and I am very seriously considering either the Woodpecker (with a Jelco TK-950L arm) or (more likely) the Dr. Feickert Blackbird, which is a step up. Interestingly, these tables seem to be the polar opposite of the LP 12 when it comes to tonearm compatibility (which has been a nagging negative with respect to the latter).

Anyway, that’s where I’m at. Would be very interested in your thoughts  (or anyone else’s, for that matter). Thanks.

Hi astewart8944. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Viella V12. I’m glad you enjoyed it so much. It sounds like you had the kind of reaction I expected to have, but didn’t. As I said, I thought it sounded very good but, for whatever reason, it just didn’t engage me as much as I thought it would - the way the Palmer and the Woodpecker did. 

To daveyf’s point, I don’t think this was entirely due to the Ortofon cartridge, since it’s the very same cartridge that drew me in on the Woodpecker. I just think the Woodpecker managed to tap into the emotional core of the music whereas the Viella, while impressive, seemed to be more detail oriented and analytical - and I don’t mean that in a negative way. It’s just not what I’m looking for, apparently.

What I find particularly interesting and also want to share is that the demos of the two turntables I have fallen in love with (the Palmer and the Woodpecker) had one thing in common:  Both were played through Harbeth 40.2 speakers.  So maybe that’s the secret sauce!

Daveyf: Oh, I agree completely that the ideal way to audition a component is to plug it into your system, in your listening room. And then do the same with competing components. Preferably the same day! Unfortunately, I don’t think the high end audio world works that way anymore.  At least not in my neck of the woods.

br3098:  Thanks for your thoughts on the Pear Audio line of turntables. I did consider them for a while and I know they are well reviewed but, for whatever reason, they never gained traction with me. 

 Do you have any experience with the Dr. Feickert “bird line” of products? Since they are the most recent shiny objects to capture my attention and stoke my enthusiasm.

Thanks, astewart8944.  Yeah, I’ve been hearing a lot of buzz about direct drive turntables generally and the new Technics line in particular. I would like to hear what they have to offer, sonically. I seem to recall that long-time belt-drive advocate and TT reviewer Art Dudley became a convert some years back. I think he bought a Garrard something or other.

Thanks very much astewart8944.  Sounds like that must have been an extremely interesting and informative experience. So, notwithstanding the differences in associated gear, room acoustics, etc., did you get the sense that any one of these three drive systems was inherently, fundamentally superior to the others?

Thanks, noromance.  Wow, there are almost too many turntable choices.  Kind of amazing, when you consider how far into the digital era we are, and how perfect-sound-forever technology was expected by most to leave analog on the dustbin of audio playback history.

I wonder what the average age of turntable enthusiasts is, because this golden age of analog we are experiencing is wholly dependent on young blood awareness and enthusiasm; not just older guys who had cheap but perfectly enjoyable turntables 30 or more years ago as the centerpiece of their sound systems (which is what I suspect most of us are).

I just took a look at your system, noromance. Looks nice indeed.  I see you are using the Jelco TK-850L tone arm on your Garrard. The Feickert Woodpecker I enjoyed so much was mounted with the 950L, which I understand to be essentially the same arm, but for a touch more adjustability. So we certainly seem to be in agreement on that element.

Hi all.  It’s been a while so I thought I would check in and share my decision. Unfortunately, I was unable give the Palmer a second listen; however I was able to make what I feel was a meaningful comparison between a full spec Linn LP12 and the Dr. Feickert Blackbird (bearing in mind that the associated components were completely different).

Both tables sounded great, and I knew that I could live happily ever after with either, but ultimately I decided to go with the Blackbird (with the optional external power supply). Both “played the tune,” both were rhythmically assured, and both had rock solid imaging. I thought the Linn sounded a bit richer and the Blackbird played music with a bit more verve. That said, I think my decision came down to three things.  

First, I thought the Blackbird had a slightly higher “fun factor,” though I’m hard pressed to qualify why this is so.

Second, the Linn had an Ekos SE arm (vs. the considerably less expensive Jelco TK 950L) and a Kandid cartridge (vs. a considerably less expensive Ortofon). So while I realize upgrades - even somewhat expensive ones - sometimes bring only incremental changes at this level, I felt there was more down-the-road room for improvement with the Blackbird (e.g., perhaps an eventual upgrade to a Kuzma 4point or an SME arm).

Finally, I think I was just ready for a change of direction. I was a perfectly content Linn LP12 owner for 25 years, and would have had no problem whatsoever continuing along that path. But when the old fruit box finally gave out it seemed like a good opportunity to think outside “the box” and try a different flavor. I haven’t been disappointed.

So that’s about it.  Again, thanks to everyone for their input. It was all interesting and useful.

Thanks, daveyf.  I appreciate it.  It was a fun process and, as you said, there really was no wrong answer. I feel very fortunate that I had the opportunity to audition these wonderful contraptions, and would be delighted to own any one of them.