Lugnut and Rockinroni,
The step up thing baffles me as well. I know if I had the money to buy any phono stage and cartridge that I desired this would be a non issue. I could get The Groove, or an ARC REF Phono, and run the microscopic mv coils evryone loves. I guess it is the sound that MM's make that I don't like. Perhaps I will try another MC before I dump it all. It's tough to get new releases on LP. If you do find them they are the expensive heavy weight audiophile pressings. It sounds like you guys get your newer stuff on CD. Does your BPS read noise like mad, Lugnut? I know Twl didn't have much good to say about it, what do you think of it? I could live with a few warts if the damn thing was quiet. |
Maxgain,
The BPS is just great in the noise department. I've used it with my older Naim gear and my Linn. I know that few audiophiles that frequent this site think highly of Linn but I've got to say that the phono stage is superb in my Wakonda. It would be nice if someone would loan you one of these cartridges to try out. It isn't the best but it just may save you from dumping analog playback. I'm confident that one of the other recommendations made by Twl for a higher output mc (Ortofon X5-MC @ $115) would be superior to the BPS. I agree with you about the price of new lp's. Most do seem to be heavier and more in line with audiophile pressings.
I've lived in Idaho for 15 years now and enjoy the recreational opportunities here but have yet to hook up with anyone that seeks a higher level of playback. We have one rather small high end store in Boise. They suggested the BPS years ago based on my desire to not invest in a step up device and the money I was willing to spend. Until a recent return to home outside of Omaha I had not had a chance to listen to any other offerings.
I'm putting together a "get by" system thanks to the loan of a receiver by Twl and will be listing my current system for sale shortly. Since I have so many albums and haven't grown tired of listening to them I will continue to be vinyl based. I do know that I'll be going the Lowther route and be tube based but I'm really concerned about the phono part of the equation. I'll be leaning heavily on Tom to steer me in the right direction. Unlike a lot of audiophiles I can't afford to make a mistake in doing this.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming years. There is undoubtedly a renewed interest in vinyl playback, the digital wars are far from over, copyright protection is in the forefront of the recording executives minds, the Redbook cd is losing it's patent, home theatre is driving the software side of things and I'm scratching my head. I yearn for a return of a simpler time when there were actual record stores filled with generic pressings that were affordable. Until then I will continue to buy small collections of vinyl and live mainly on music that's new to me but older. The listening part of this has been a lot of fun but the cleaning and sorting is a chore. Plus, what to do with the dogs? I hate to throw them in the trash but don't want to save them.
I apologize for the rambling and especially for being off topic but this is the best damn thread I've read in the year and a half I've been visiting this site.
Patrick |
Hi, I'm back. Here's a little info from the Audio Note Kondo site on MC Step ups:
"Due to the extremely low output, we do not recommend the use of active moving coil stages for any of the Audio Note cartridges, as they do not offer the linearity and general noise level necessary to get the best yield from the Io cartridges, this requires a transformer."
Now if it's good enough for Kondo-San, it's good enough for me.
I have found that my experiences have also borne out his findings. I use a Cotter Mk2, and I like it. If I could afford the $6k AN silver wound transformers, I'd certainly give them a shot.
What do you guys think? |
I understand that the ARC Ref Phono uses the Jensen transformers in it. I admit that my experience with transformers in the past were tainted and most likley loading related. Thanks for giving me some better info to digest. It is opening my eyes a bit. It is easy to come to the wrong conclusion at times with this stuff. I know people do it all the time with speakers and electronics. |
The Jensen transformers are pretty good, and are sometimes included in some of the better phono stages to provide the MC input stage.
I think that the transformer should be located as close to the tonearm as possible, to boost the signal at the earliest possible point, so the information losses from these very low level signals traveling along the wire is minimized. |
Twl, where can one get raw Jensen transformers? It can't be very hard to build something. All you need are some RCA's, a case, and the transformers, Right?
When you mention Euro cartridges, I assume you are refering to the ClearAudio and Van Den Hul stuff? Do you put Benz in this same group? You seem to like some Ortofon units. A friend just got a Kontrapunkt b he seems to like. Don't get me wrong, there seems to be proponents of all sorts of sounds out there that I don't understand. A great deal of the speakers I hear fall into that group. There seems to be a trend to what I feel are overly bright speakers now, I guess that has been going on for some time. Perhaps this is the same trend that you are pointing to in the Euro cartridge arena. Detail at the expense of all else? I like detail, I just don't want it shoved at me and force fed to me. I think the same may be going on with cables as well. |
Here's a link to the Jensen transformer page with all the criteria for selecting the right one.
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mc.html
Yes I'm talking about VDH and Clearaudio mainly. Benz has a couple of carts that are ok, like the LO-.4, and the Glider at a lower price point. Mostly all Euro stuff is overpriced and has a zippy high end. Also too clinical, and lacking life.
And yes, it is happening with cables and stuff too. There seems to be a marketing trend that is going for impressive high end detail that is unnatural and tiresome. The same goes for alot of speakers.
The Ortofons that I like tend to be the older ones or the ones derived from those older models. I still like the Jap cartridges better, though.
And Clearaudio and VDH are ridiculous. The Shelter 501 will beat the VDH $5k Black Beauty, and I don't like any of the Clearaudios.
So when we realize that this is happening with the products, it becomes harder to find the musical stuff, and we really have to work hard to find it. It is almost never put in front of our noses, because all the magazines and dealers are showing us some German engineer in a white lab coat, with his spec chart saying," Alles is Gut!" Then they want us to pay $5k for this Teutonic spec chart wonder, that is about as lifeless as a dead carp laying on the dock.
So that's why nearly all my audio equipment is considered "wierd" or is totally unknown to most people. I have to go out of the mainstream to get what I want. There are still manufacturers out there who know what musical sound is, but they are getting fewer. And everyone is being sold a new case of "audiophile fever" every month.
Think about it. If you sell them something that will satisfy them, they won't be looking to upgrade next month. If you sell them something that is initially impressive, and will drive them out of the room after a month, they will be in the market again looking to upgrade. More sales.
I remember hearing once that McDonalds purposely put uncomfortable seats in their dining rooms, so people would just eat and get out, to make room for more customers.
This has become an industry that is putting money ahead of everything else. It is up to us to spend the time and effort to find the products that make sense for us. This is why I keep talking about this stuff that I've found that works good. Somebody has to do this. |
Twl,thanks for the Jensen site info. Those are a real possibility. The transformers are small,look easy to do something with, and only $104 each. Good info to have on hand. |
TWL said: "And Clearaudio and VDH are ridiculous. The Shelter 501 will beat the VDH $5k Black Beauty, and I don't like any of the Clearaudios."
Well since I own and love my VDH black beauty, let me speak up on its behalf. In my prior setup (LP12, EkosII, Cirkus bearing, Lingo power), I was using a Monster Cable Sigma Genesis cartridge (the last model I think). I loved it. After it got old, I replaced it with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and had it for a couple of years. I liked that warm and musical sound, very involving. I then tried the VDH black beauty and loved it. To my ears, while not as warm as the Koetsu, it is plenty warm enough, very musical and is MUCH better in transparency, resolution and sounstaging. It just creates the illusion of a performance in front of me in all its variety and detail (I listen only to classical music) in a way the Koetsu never did. It also tracks better than any other MC I have ever had. After hearing the BB, the Koetsu sounded obviously colored, as if it was imparting its own characteristic euphonic sound on every recording.
I now have my VDH BB running on a VPI TNT MkV with JMW 12.5 arm. It's an absolutely killer combo, that has me listening more than I have in years. |
Sorry Jack. I thought that I might ruffle a feather or two with that comment. Just my opinion. I'm sure your rig sounds great. Different people like different things. Not everyone would like what I have.
I probably should have worded my comment a little more diplomatically. :^)
I'm glad you're listening more and enjoying it. That's what it's all about. |
Jackcob, I wasn't trying to start anything, as it was my question to Twl that brought out the strong opinion. I was trying to qualify some of the information he is giving me and that gives me some frame of reference. An opinion was what I was after. I am in the throws of an analoge mid life crisis, and Twl is trying to help me out. I know that cartridges are very system dependant and as subject to taste as speakers. I have a friend that I have not seen in many years who I know for a fact is a good listener. We communicate some via e-mail now. I do trust his judgment on things of an audio nature. This friend of mine used an expensive ClearAudio MC and likes it very much. I have to assume that his system is voiced to work well with it. His system is very different than Twl's. I am sure that they both get good sound from their systems as I am confident that you do as well using the Black Beauty. In no way was I trying to stir up any bad feelings with my question. As experienced audiophiles we know that how you set up your system can be just as important, if not more so in some cases, than what gear you own. Thanks for all the info. |
Twl, the McDonald's seat thing is an urban legend. Seat turnover is not an issue in your typical McDonald's. 55% of their business only uses the drive-thru and never enters the building. The number of seats in a restaurant is actually set by local building codes which usually specifies more seats than McDonald's own studies indicate are necessary. What most people see as a lack of seats is usually a problem of seat grouping and layout. |
I don't have any bad feelings at all and was not upset in the least by TWL's strong opinion. I just wanted to put in a good word for my beloved black beauty. lol |
Twl do you use a shelter? Maxgain you need to dump that shure thing and get a OC9 brand new only $299. I know you will love it, Always quite. better Musically than any CD. Twl what do you think about the OC9? ever tried one? I remember reading a old review about the OC9 15 years ago, the guy said don't let the low price scare you off. Meaning just because it was only $400 at that time, it was a giant killer. also I recently read a review of that final tool table, and the guy says at the end, "on this table he heard a OC9 mimic a new Lyra Helikon. I think there is some sort of a conspiracy to hide the fact of how good this MC is.
Fermer said 6 months ago he had a review of the new OC9 for us next month. The review never went to print, well not yet anyway.
About lp's I also buy and sell allot on eBay just check the guys feedback first, and if the guy or sometimes girl (ya like they know anything about vinyl) sounds like they don't know how to grade, THEY DON'T.
I am getting into a lot of new music like someone else said, new to me. This stuff is 30 years old and most of the progressive rock that I Love, some on the, old Virtigo swirl label, is GREAT!!! and you can always find Jazz or Classical.
I also have a old vanderstein OL-1 mc step up device, class A operation, I don't need any more.
Bye for now guys,
Roni |
Hi Rockinroni.
Yes, I use a Shelter 501 right now, and it's very nice.
I have not owned an AT OC-9 personally, but have heard them many times. They are quite a nice cartridge, and have been sort of a cult item for years. Not in the league of the Shelter, but better than alot of cartridges in its price range. I'd have to say that on my arm, I prefer a Denon DL103R in the lower price ranges, but that's a personal preference, and some may like the OC-9 better. |
Twl, I have not heard the Dennon, so I will take your learned opinion as the reference on this subject.
I have been corresponding with Lak on e-mail, and have been preaching the virtues of analogue to him. He used to use a dual 1228 and still has it. No wonder he is cd only.
Twl you are the man! just read about the HOLEY GRAIL WOW!!!!!
My jaw is on the floor.
Roni |
Roni, thanks. My jaw is also on the floor, every time I turn that amp on and listen to it. Lak will be on the vinyl boat soon. |
