Questions about SACD vs.analog for classical music


I've just ordered a VPI Scoutmaster. A rather impulsive decision made at just the point when I was about to have my Sony 9000es modded. Not quite just at the point, but right after I removed my Hw-19jr/pt-6/Glider/blackcube rig from storage in order to get the parts ready for shipping to they new owners. I had what i thought would be my last night listening to the TT, after a several year hiatus, and you know what? There was that organic something, that harmonic coherence in certain recordings that I noticed only in the very best SACDs. In some of my LPs, that 'present' or 'real' feeling exceeded all but one or two of my SACDs (only the Rite of Spring on Telarc, a few tracks from the telarc classical sampler 2, and one other were superior to anything I heard on the VPI). OK, the SACDs were obviously cleaner sounding and more extended (I was using Stax sr-lambda phones) except when compared to a couple of the highest quality analogue productions lps I own, but it got me thinking: hey, if my humble jr. sounds this good now, I can only wonder how good one of the purportedly much improved high-end rigs would sound. The Sony mods would have cost upwards of $1300, but selling my jr. and lumping all that dough together and allocating it to a renewed involvement in analog looked, well, promising.
So I ordered a new Scoutmaster (at substantial discount) with the JMW-9 arm and am now by the way researching my options for cartridges and preamps. I've sold my blackcube, but have a Jolida JD-9 on load from a dealer, which sounds very nice with the jr. (the sold TT about to be shipped) - very vivid and harmonically satisfying, well articulated, etc - though it's not as quiet as the 'Cube and I even can hear some AM radio coming through my phones when I turn up my linestage preamp volume. But here I digress.
My main reason for starting this thread, aside from having some assorted questions about carts, preamps, and the like, is to ask for some objective and subjective opinions regarding the decision I just made. Bear in mind that my main interest is classical music, especially chamber (esp. string quartets, trios, wind quintets, etc) and piano with some orchestral, followed by classic rock and some Blue-Note era jazz. The SACD route seemed promising at first, and I told myself that, even though there were only a smattering of sacd recordings for many of my favorite classical performers (eg. Elly Ameling Soprano, Yo-Yo Ma, Rubinstein), there were so many truly talented lesser-knowns on the sacd scene (e.g. pianist Freddy Kempf on BIS, Csaba and Heisser on Praga digitals, and of course Paavo Jaervi on Telarc) that I deemed my chances of attaining long-term satisfaction with purely sacd (and a little redbook on the side) to be very good. Especially after sacd mods. As for classic rock, the SACD of the Police Synchronicity just blew me away (through Sennheiser HD600w/cardas cable).
But THEN it occurred to me that the only way to possibly hear my very favorite string quartet - the Vegh Quartet - in better than redbook fidelity was through vinyl. Ditto for numerous other performers who will never appear on sacd. Then of course there's always the Beatles, Stones, Jerry Garcia and others to sweeten the deal for vinyl. By the way, I sold my Ikemi redbook player in order to open up some new options and try something new. Even my girlfriend almost cried to see the Ikemi go, her having been converted just enough to an audiophile that she could absolutely see someone justifying having spent almost four grand on a source component (even a non-disc changer)
So what do you guys think? When my scoutmaster arrives, am I in for some visceral thrills and deep musical connection? I know that it's also dependent on the rest of my system, and so far I've narrowed cart choices down to the Lyras and the Shelters, leaning heavily towards the former. As for phono preamps I'm considering the Linto, Ear 834p mm/mc, and a few others including a modded Jolida JD-9 or something along those lines.

Is the scoutmaster, fitted with a $1000+ cartridge and a similarly priced phono preamp, going through Cardas golden reference into either a Bryston B60 integrated (and then to Sennheisers or B&wdm603) OR into a Stax srm-t1 tube driver of my Stax electrostats, going to 'knock my socks off' as suggested by Mike at VPI yesterday? How close can I get to SACD (especially to the 'pure DSD') fidelity through this setup? I know speed stability and noise floor will be drastically improved, giving tones accuracy and timbral accuracy, and i expect bass to be better and overall macro and microdynamics as well BUT... am I going to be able to achieve some of the same absolutely organic, sparkling, and pure sound of some of the better DSD recordings? What about the musical clarity per se of redbook, in particular when listening to string quartets and the like? Will I get a 'clean' sound in the tonal sense, not overly dark, but a sound that seems right? What about the upper octave of piano?
I once read an article long ago (i believe it was in stereophile) in which the author admitting to prefering cassette tape over vinyl due to it having cleaner and more pitch accurate upper octave reproduction. That was then, this is now. What do you guys think? (last time I'll ask that, I promise!)

Ted
tedd1

Showing 6 responses by robm321

SACD does not cure the digital sound. It may soften it with the Emm labs set up, but vinyl just sounds different. It's a matter of preference rather than rehash the same old arguments, go listen for yourself. By the way you can better the EMM labs for a fraction of the cost with vinyl, and the software will cost $1-2 a peice. And there are 1,000's of classical LP's to choose from.

If digital bettered vinyl, they wouldn't be releasing all these TT's and cartridges because it's a pain in the arsh to play, setup LPs, but we go through the effort because it sounds better.
Fbhifi,

Nice try but I'm not going to chase rabbits and type out a laundry list to help you argue for EMM labs digital over analog. And what difference does it make? Vinyl has a different sound than digital. When I heard all the excitement for the EMM labs stuff, I had to hear it. My dealer had the setup on a much higher end system than I have at home. He also had the VPI TNT Jr. - don't know what cart, arm blah blah blah. I did listened to both and by far preferred the addictiveness of the TT. Then I went home and listened on my Scout with Dyna Karat cart - expecting to be embarrassed after hearing my dealers setup with modest components downstream and was pleasantly surprised that I enjoyed the organic sound that analog gave me. The EMM labs sounded softer than most digital (I will admit it's amazing), but the digital sound wasn't eliminated completely like some state(this is with a high end tube set up no less)- it just seemed to be softened.

The EMM labs had more audiophile qualities than my scout, but my modest setup was more enjoyable to me in the end which made me warm and fuzzy knowing that I saved a lot of money. If this wasn't the case, I'd sell all my TT stuff and save myself the hassle of cleaning, flipping, storing LP's, Setting up the Cart., having to buy a new cart. to replace the warn out one, etc. But until a Digital setup will give me that "realness" that I feel with vinyl, I'm sticking with it.

So, you can pick out words in my post and form a monumental argument or go the immature route and call me an $%#& lol, but that won't make digital sound any better. And I listen mostly to digital now, because I don't have a lot of time because it's more convenient. So, I'm not a vinyl evangelist. I just chose it over digital for the sound that I ultimately like.
fbhifi,

I mentioned the TT and cart. that I used on the front end. The Scout, the dyna cart. Discovery cables, Rogue Audio Stealth Preamp, analysis plus IC, etc.

It's a matter of opinion like you said, so how are you going to argue what I like or don't by arguing about tonearms? or whatever.

I've used this set up for years and have argued the vinyl digital thing and am frankly tired of the back and forth because it gets no where. So, I gave my opinion. I don't care who "trusts" me or not. It's an online forum. I would expect people to be slow to trust any of these posts. How can I trust you? Just because you list components. Anyone can make a list up.

That's why it's good to listen for yourself, decide for yourself, and who cares who agrees or not. By the way I'm not the only one that would rather listen to LP's over the best CD, SACD can offer, so if you don't want to trust me, then trust them.

As far as the "immature" thing: You misread my post.

You don't have to take me seriously, I don't care. Listen for yourself. I'm not the only one prefering vinyl over everything else.
As you can see from this sad display of attempts to PROVE (with evidence) what sounds better is rediculous. So, no more vynil or digital threads please! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I find Decca's all the time at goodwill, you just have to take what you can find.