@rego you said “PS Audio uses PWM also.” can you tell me what this means and how it bears on the issue? Thanks!
Preamp w/DAC (or Integrated w/DAC) vs. Outboard/External DAC? (Again! Forgive me!)
Please forgive this question if you think it's been answered before. I really have been researching it and am still confused.
Regarding prospective purchases of preamp or integrated amp —total budget about $3-4k.
I am still trying to decide a basic question of tubes vs. solid state.
But, I am *also* stymied by the "external vs. internal DAC" issue. This is the question I'm raising now.
Any suggested $$ breakdowns for how to spend $3-$4k — how much for preamp, amp, dac, proportionately?
This is a system-building in progress. I'm spending reasonable, similar amounts on other elements but not gobs of money -- e.g. I will not have $5k speakers or a $2k streamer, etc. So if you think I'm over-worrying this question *given my total system's modest profile* you can just tell me straight, "Dude, don't bother worrying about this question. Your system isn't worth it." I'll appreciate that candor, too.
Regarding prospective purchases of preamp or integrated amp —total budget about $3-4k.
I am still trying to decide a basic question of tubes vs. solid state.
But, I am *also* stymied by the "external vs. internal DAC" issue. This is the question I'm raising now.
- Some say "you must get an external DAC because things change so much."
- Others say, "get an internal DAC, you'll be fine and then can do a pre-out later, if DAC's change."
- An audiophile friend says, "Even having an internal DAC that you bypass still adds noise, so keep it separate for that reason, too." (He recommends audio-gd DACs.)
- Because I'm very interested in PS Audio's StellarGainCell (and it has a built in DAC) and I raised the DAC issue with them — I asked, basically, "Why shouldn't I worry about the obsolescence of the DAC in the GainCell Preamp?"
- PS Audio replied: "It’s true that DAC technology has changed a lot in the last decade and obsolescence has been an issue as the industry has shifted towards streaming….The Gain Cell is compatible with all of the popular formats, like DSD and high rate PCM, so obsolescence is unlikely for what we can foresee. All of the streaming services we’re seeing, even new ones like Qobuz, are doing 24/192 and the Gain Cell is more than capable to handle all of that. While we can’t predict the future, we’re not seeing anything on the horizon that we expect to change this. We haven’t heard of anything that would be game changing and drastically alter this product’s relevance as the Gain Cell can process the file types and sizes we’re seeing with streaming which is increasing in popularity….We’re proud of the design of the Gain Cell’s preamp section, and I think its performance both in the DAC section and the preamp section will have a lot of longevity for years to come."
Any suggested $$ breakdowns for how to spend $3-$4k — how much for preamp, amp, dac, proportionately?
This is a system-building in progress. I'm spending reasonable, similar amounts on other elements but not gobs of money -- e.g. I will not have $5k speakers or a $2k streamer, etc. So if you think I'm over-worrying this question *given my total system's modest profile* you can just tell me straight, "Dude, don't bother worrying about this question. Your system isn't worth it." I'll appreciate that candor, too.
Showing 14 responses by hilde45
You’re singing the tune I’m singing today... prima Luna and schiit. Somehow I caught the ps audio bug and I’m not sure I can shake it. Take all this with a grain of salt, as I’ve not auditioned anything yet. I am considering two different pairs of speakers right now. Both are 84db sensitivity and one is 8 ohms and the other is 6 ohms. Salk Wow1 and Dynaudio evoke 10. They will be compared and one will be sent back. Others have relayed the very good advice that I should probably look for a more efficient speaker and then I would enjoy a greater range of choices for the amplifier and preamp and Dac. But something has be a fixed point in all this or I’ll go crazy. And people love the Salks and I loved the Dynaudios. The more general issue is that I will be listening in a fairly small room and so it would be easy for the speakers to be too large. At some point I might want to move things to a larger room and so having some extra capacity in the amplifier would not be a bad thing. |
Thanks, @rego. The technical explanation is helpful, but I'm not sure how it impacts the bigger question I asked. Does the fact that PSA uses PWM somehow make their inclusion of the DAC immune to longevity issues? Also, I read some really hard stuff about PSA's product (especially the DAC, oy!) this morning which is causing me some pause: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-the-ps-audio-stellar-gain-cell-dac.9273/ |
@erik_squires Thanks for that. I think you have already helped me before with this question on another thread. One question for you, since you mention the Parasound -- do they make an integrated or preamp *without* a DAC? Of course the elephant in the room is how the heck I listen to all these options! I’ll do what I can, locally, and just make the best choice for now. |
@djones51 Thanks for your suggestions. What's the background rationale? Is it because the speakers are basically mid-fi and so there's not much reason to push things in the direction I'm going? In other words, an inbuilt DAC in the equipment level we're talking will be just fine and if I ever evolve my system, I can tackle that question later? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so let me know if you've got other rationales for your comment. Thank you! |
Thanks yyzsantabarbara I am seriously conflicted now! I do wonder if the Hegel 360 is going cheaply now because it has a DAC in it. In other words, this is too big a research project for me, now, but I'd love to see a comparison between similarly priced units -- some with DAC, some without -- and compare their relative rates of depreciation. |
Here's what psaudio said about the external DAC issue. I now have roughly half of people saying "get an external DAC" and the other half saying "it doesn't matter." Ugh! "While I would agree that an outboard DAC is the most ideal situation it would also take a far superior DAC to the Gain Cell to be a better performing unit. So having the DAC internal to the unit is not the most important factor to consider. If you’re asking if something like an outboard DAC like our DirectStream DAC would sound better the answer is yes, it certainly would. But that is largely because the DAC is superior over the Stellar unit. But on the other hand if you’re wondering if a less expensive standalone DAC will sound better then the answer is likely no because the DAC isn’t as good. So I wouldn’t get to hung up on making sure you have an internal/external DAC rather than selecting a unit that you like and works well for your use." |
@rego thank you so much for your answer. I do want to play high-resolution files and so what you say is very useful. By the way, regarding PS audio I had the following exchange with them on about the topic we've been discussing (should one buy a preamp with a DAC in it) on YouTube and got a reply! Me: Why doesn't PSA make an entry-level preamp and DAC as separates? What compromises did you accept for the Stellar GainCell and why? Thanks so much. PS Audio 3 hours ago ”We have a pair in the works right now but they won't see the light of day until later this year.“ News we can use, perhaps. |
@tweak Thanks for the head's up about Ps Audio pre's. I'll just need to try them out with whatever speakers I eventually choose. I'm planning on auditioning the Parasound dac/pre very soon here in Denver. Not sure where the Elac is to try around here. I'll look. The other stuff sounds just lovely. Will keep an eye open, for sure. |