O_holter, wow!, sorry, I just caught up on this thread, I have been looking into many interest for my system, since I have only been building it for two years, at the cost of admission, this takes alot of time to obtain each piece, Very funny you mentioned a Krell FPB 600, well, you guessed close, I have a Brand New Modded Krell FPB 700cx amp that I am currently burning in, the good folks their at krell inserted all new 2014 improved caps that was not available in 2005 in this amp, and renewed the cosmetics as well, Oh yea, this thing gets HOT!, I enjoy vintage Krell Like this, yes, it does sound different than before, It has an uncanny way with treble, grainless, no brittleness at all!, mid-range is improved, of course the bass needed nothing to improve, however,LOL!, I only have 85 hours out of 500 of burn-in, sorry, let's talk tubes, tube products is my preference in front of this krell, I also agree, you should do long listening to be sure of your impressions, I admit, I have enjoyed following your tube journey, It apears that the RCA 12BH7 is of interest to me now, my question, to ever can help us here, How many variates does this tube come in?, you mentioned black plates version, Is there others? cheers to you O_holter for your contribution here.
Preamp for Aesthetix / Atma-sphere
Hi
I have the Aesthetix Io Eclipse with volume and dual power supplies, Atma-sphere MA-1 monoblocs (140 watts) and Audiokinesis Dream Maker (93 db sensitive) speakers. These are great components. My question is about system synergy, how to make them play together.
I have been running the Io direct to my amps since I first bought the Mk2 version back in 2004. At the time, I had a Krell FPB600, and in that context, it was a blessing, and a great step up from the Krell KAV 250p preamp. I'll never forget my first impression with the Io - it was like going from the wooded hills up into the mountains. There was no going back.
With volume, the Io functions as a preamp. It looks like a preamp. Someone here on A-gon said going direct is best - which I interpreted as: it IS a preamp! So I thought, OK I have a combined phono and preamp - problem fixed. But it wasn't.
From recent testing I have finally become convinced that the Io does benefit from a separarate preamp. Even if clarity and detail is better going direct from the Io to the amps, the punch and "here-ness" of the music is clearly better with a preamp in the chain, at least in my system.
Trouble is, which preamp? I am testing a small solid state Musical Innovation preamp, which helps with the punch but veils the music. An optimal solution might be the Aesthetix Callisto, preferably with dual power - but I don't have the space, and I already have a lot of tubes and tube heat. I have space for one or possibly two boxes.
From what I have heard so far, a solid state might do the job well (in my tube-rich context), however it should not impart any s-state artifacts or reduce the resolution from the Io Eclipse.
The ideal would be to test a few tube and s-state preamps, and then decide. However, this is difficult where I live, so advice is welcome.
My question relates to my own setup of course, but is relevant for everyone with a top phono stage on the one hand and amps on the other. What is best in the middle?
From recent testing I have learned that problems that I thought were related to the speakers, the phono pre, the pickup and so on, were in fact related to the preamp issue. For example, the Dream Makers straight from the Io may sound a bit lazy and washed out in the bass, very clear in mid and treble but not fully embodied. Plugging in the solid state pre, the situation becomes dramatically different, now the speakers are driving, propulsive. Very enjoyable, but some detail is lost and some transistor things added that I don't want.
So I am looking for a solution with most of the plusses, and not much of the minuses. The preamp must be fully balanced with XLR in / out.
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I have the Aesthetix Io Eclipse with volume and dual power supplies, Atma-sphere MA-1 monoblocs (140 watts) and Audiokinesis Dream Maker (93 db sensitive) speakers. These are great components. My question is about system synergy, how to make them play together.
I have been running the Io direct to my amps since I first bought the Mk2 version back in 2004. At the time, I had a Krell FPB600, and in that context, it was a blessing, and a great step up from the Krell KAV 250p preamp. I'll never forget my first impression with the Io - it was like going from the wooded hills up into the mountains. There was no going back.
With volume, the Io functions as a preamp. It looks like a preamp. Someone here on A-gon said going direct is best - which I interpreted as: it IS a preamp! So I thought, OK I have a combined phono and preamp - problem fixed. But it wasn't.
From recent testing I have finally become convinced that the Io does benefit from a separarate preamp. Even if clarity and detail is better going direct from the Io to the amps, the punch and "here-ness" of the music is clearly better with a preamp in the chain, at least in my system.
Trouble is, which preamp? I am testing a small solid state Musical Innovation preamp, which helps with the punch but veils the music. An optimal solution might be the Aesthetix Callisto, preferably with dual power - but I don't have the space, and I already have a lot of tubes and tube heat. I have space for one or possibly two boxes.
From what I have heard so far, a solid state might do the job well (in my tube-rich context), however it should not impart any s-state artifacts or reduce the resolution from the Io Eclipse.
The ideal would be to test a few tube and s-state preamps, and then decide. However, this is difficult where I live, so advice is welcome.
My question relates to my own setup of course, but is relevant for everyone with a top phono stage on the one hand and amps on the other. What is best in the middle?
From recent testing I have learned that problems that I thought were related to the speakers, the phono pre, the pickup and so on, were in fact related to the preamp issue. For example, the Dream Makers straight from the Io may sound a bit lazy and washed out in the bass, very clear in mid and treble but not fully embodied. Plugging in the solid state pre, the situation becomes dramatically different, now the speakers are driving, propulsive. Very enjoyable, but some detail is lost and some transistor things added that I don't want.
So I am looking for a solution with most of the plusses, and not much of the minuses. The preamp must be fully balanced with XLR in / out.
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145 responses Add your response
O_holter, my speakers are 91 sensativity, 6 ohm that dips lower while playing music, 30hz to 27 khz cross over 900 hz 4 way design with sloped baffle bi-amp speakers, The JBL L-7 speakers with Tara Omega Jumpers with still points footers, then rotated out with polycrystal footers, the krell sounds even better at lowest volume, I suppose these improved caps do the trick, that was the first think I noticed when first playing this new amp, and thankyou for the congrats, it's been a long hard road to get to this point, I was without my system for a year, tell me more feedback on the tubes when you get a chance, cheers. |
Hi I just put two of my three extra Rca 12bh7 tubes into the Ming Da Mc-34a amp here at my cottage. Sound good here also, and since i could set the bias to the same 0.43v level I thought ok lets try. I have no idea perhaps bias should be changed(if possible, like here), switching from 12au7 to 12bh7. |
Audiolab - Krell and speaker sensitivity - I dont know. Check it. What I know is, I had 84db sensitive Dynaudio Consequence speakers, hard to drive, and had to go too loud to get the best sound (class A I think, the amp got ver hot). The Stereophile review was clear. You have to get it to run in pure class A, to get the best sound. |
Hi,i found this thread recently,i'm the Einstein the Tube lll pre user too,after read the thread,i make a phone call to the tube shop,and ask for RCA 12BH7,and the sales told me they have,and they said you can also try BRIMAR 12BH7,they said 12BH7,BRIMAR is the best one,so i bought the BRIMAR 12BH7 D getter ,after replace the 12au7,i listening carefully a few hours,so now i am very satisfy the 12BH7,I think i so lucky to find this thread,thanks everybody |
0_holter, Hi, Great to see you, My interest in the tubes is for my cd player which drives my amp directly to good effect, my amp is 100kilo ohms, very good match for driving an amp with this vincent tube digital player, and yes, speaker sensativity will have alot to do with it, I have incredible full sound on lowest volume, the krell is 3.58 volts to drive to full power, the vincent puts out 2.5 volts max, so I never over drive the amp, and as far as sound, I am looseing nothing, I have used the vincent on head phones set to full out put, I cannot hear a difference at all useing the volume control on the player running thru the entire system, and my speakers are a modest 91 sensativity, would love to have 103 sensativity like I did in the late 90s on a Krell FPB 200, that, my friend was awsome!, so basically, you are saying I need to check to see if I can even run the RCA 12bh7 in place of the 12au7 tube, i'm sure I do not have a bias control for me to set in a cd player, a technician could, I do not know enough about being tech savy to do this myself, Did you use telefunken tubes in place of the 12ax7 tubes?, if so, How did that work out?, did you try the telefunken 12ax7 tube? |
O_holter, Yes, I am using the Aesthetix IO Signature analog source with the Octave Jubilee along with the Mcintosh MVP 891 3D Blu Ray SACD player for digital. The amps are Mcintosh MC2301 and work beautifully with this combination. I have experimented with ECC82 Siemens, RFT, RCA, Telefunken, and Jan-Phillips with the Jubilee and find them all pretty good, with the RFT and Siemens having a slightly better top end and midrange compared to the others. The Jubilee requires matched tubes within 5% tolerance of each other to function correctly. When I tested the Einstein years ago, it also used Siemens tubes, if I recall correctly. |
Before we go in a 12bh7 march, perhaps make sure the pre or cd or amp (etc) can take it? Cf warning note from Atmasphere, above. I take the chance, in the Einstein pre and the Ming Da amp, since it sounds good and no ill effects so far. I wonder, even if a 12au7 socket can take a 12bh7 tube, should it be tuned to get the best from this tube. |
Audioquest4life - great, thanks! I can well imagine that the Io sounds superlative into the Octave Jubilee and then into Macintosh 2301. You mention tube experiments - in the Jubilee, or in the Io?'I have generally ended up with Telefunken in the Io although Rca etc can also sound good. Have you tried feet, cables or other tweaks to get the best from the Io? |
Audiolabyrinth - as i understand you are running a Vincent player direct to a recent version Krell 700, to quite sensitive Jbl speakers. Sounds promising and I know that new caps can take 300+ hours break-in time (happened with the Io Eclipse upgrade). So if it was me I would check with Vincent and try a bit tube change anyway, and not be too concerned if the sound was still a bit hard. Give it a chance to mellow. |
Hi O Holter,you mean contact Einstein for make sure the 12BH7 can instead 12AU7 ?? i didn't modify.i also use the original power cord. before i use the original 12au7 tube,i found the sound is very clean but not enough PURE,don't you think that??after change to the BRIMAR 12BH7,I found the sound really great,the blackground is really black,more bass and heard more hidden detail .......but for me the important things is PURE. |
i heard the Octave Jubilee two times,but not my cup of tea,if you want buy the Jubilee,please check the Jubilee is it true balance design because your IO phono is true balance. last if you want change power cord for IO,you can consider PAD Dominus,that'S i try sucess to match my pervious pre(AESTHETIX CALLISTO SIG)(just my two cent) |
No No No on the Dominus with Aesthetix products. The Dominus B or C has the same faults as the Aesthetix products, i.e., over exaggeration of the middle octaves and suffering of detail at the frequency extremes. The Stealth Dream or Dream State power cords are vastly superior in tonally coherency here. Been there done this, but have since moved on. |
I have not auditioned or changed cables in 5 years. The system just sounds too good to have any desire to play the cables game any time soon. For awhile I had all purist dominus cabling with the Aesthetix Io/Callisto, CAT amps and Manley DAC. I did have Joe Kubaka visit my home and fully install the KS emotion cables. This sounded wonderful but I ultimately prefer the Dominus overall even though i'd say the KS was the more "neutral" product line. A year or so later, l I tried the mid level Stealth M5000 PC and it beat the Dominus at it's own game of 3D but with more bass foundation. From here the curiosity to try the Stealth Dream came and this PC brought on further refinements of tonal coherency. Little by little each Dominus cable was replaced with Dream PCs, the Indra Ic or Jade hybrid IC. I got a friend to try the Dream and he liked it but he told me to try the Dream State PCs. We swapped and shared each of these with each other and found that after a few months of playing, the dream state was unbeatable. They were very similar but the dream state, especially the Dream Catcher model, had phenomenal dynamic contrasts while giving up nothing in tonal coherency and 3D. I use the Dream Catcher on the cat amps, the Running Spring Haley conditioner, Aria preamp and Lampizator DAC. The DS Veridical PC is for digital gear, but for beefy tube dacs, I prefer the Dream Catcher. But the Veridical worked best with the APL Denon player. The DS Lucid Dream PC is the model targeted for amps but this cable was too colored for me every place I tried it except ironically for the Sound Lab speakers where it was perfect so I bought another for the other speaker. I was very surprised that a PC could have an effect here but it was only after all the other cable refinements in the system had taken place. |
Jafox, my friend member name misternice just bought few stealth v-12 dream power cables, he lives in newzealand and austalia, He bought them used, I do not know how he did that, stealth just introduced the v-12 power cord?, anyway, he likes them alot, suppose to give me a run down of the sound when he comes back from vacation, cheers. |
On the 12BH7s, 1950's Brimars are recognized as the best, maybe followed by RCA white label 1950s D-getters...but I have both and still find the RCA red label, grey plates to be best. All, of course, is contextual (my relative context being a AirTight 300B 8W SET with WE300Bs & original Genalex Gold Lion B749s & 1940 black plate JAN RCA 5U4 rectifier), but here the RCA red label keeps winning.... The bonus? NOS RCA 12BH7 red labels in true matched pairs are pretty cheap, say $125/pr at most for good labels. With that said, I'd still go for the MP-1...very spacious, very involving. |
Jafox, I am not sure Dream State is still around. I tried contacting them awhile back, and I can no longer find a website for them. I guess Cable Company still carries them so??? Samtse, Jafox and I both owned the Stealth Dreams before we discovered Dream State. They Stealth are excellent cords, bettered on by Dream State in my experience. |
All - it is the RCA 12 BH7 red label which is the only 12BH7 tube I have experience with. I have routinely bought pairs of this tube for $40 or so which is a lot less than the insane prices for the great 6922 tubes that the RCA replaced in the Aria line stage. And yes, the Aria supports the 6v 6922 or the 12v 12au7 family with a flip of a switch. Gotta love it as the 12v tubes here take the unit to a whole new level even vs. the coveted Amperex 6922 pinched waist which now resides in the phono stage. For you IO guys, if you want a little more treble extension, try just a single pair of Brimar 4004, a 12ax7 variant, in the last stage. I used Tele 12ax7's throughout in the IO but one pair of Brimars here added some upper freq extension that was quite nice. |
Yes (we can also use them in our preamps). One of the driver tubes has a little more voltage on it, in your case the one that is at the edge of the chassis facing the power tubes. That one has to have either a -GTA or -GTB suffix if you use NOS; you can also use the Chinese tubes we use and most of the Russians too (although most of them do not hold up well). It seems that a number of the boutique tubes don't have the higher voltage rating, so you can use them in all of the locations in our equipment except the one described. |
An update: Over the past months, partly due to tube advice given in this thread, I have been enjoying my Einstein The Tube Mk2 preamplifier a lot. Or more precisely, I don't feel I have a preamp problem anymore, and don't worry about it. It fills its role fine. It does have a bit of solid state sound I suspect, but I am not much bothered by it, after the NOS tube upgrades (described above), and its assertiveness fits in nicely with the rest of my system and fairly large room. A special treat, for me, is the ability to mix it in optimally. Since I have volume on the Aesthetix Io phono preamp too, I can mix and match. The sound is fatter and more organic with the Io taking most of the amplification load, and leaner and more precise with the Einstein taking most. A nice dialogue indeed. I like to have the Io volume at three o'clock and the Einstein at twelve or one o'clock, to get the best sound. This preamp is certainly delivering, and even if it was expensive, I got it more reasonably second hand, and am glad I bought it. |
Hello @ketran Congratulations with the Einstein, I hope it works out for you. Mine is still doing well. The main tweaks I’ve done: 1 - changing the 12au7 tube in the middle, to NOS. First, a CBS Hytron, which was a clear improvement, and then to a RCA 12bh7, which was even better. I have not tried Brimar. I tried some Siemens / Halske but the difference was not profound. 2 - Changing the power cord from stock to a Wywires Juice 2. A bit better. I had to take the flat plug (that goes to the bottom of the E) off the stock cable, and screw it on the Juice. I have not bothered with more power cable testing. 3 - Changing my "use regime" - I now avoid having the E on, unless I actually use it. It developed problems a year or so ago, but luckily a local repair man near Oslo was able to fix it. He changed several resistors / caps that were showing signs of age / heat. Volker at Einstein was helpful, via email. It now runs fine. What are the components you use with the preamp?
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