Preamp Deal of the Century

I have 6c4's on my Chenin. The JAN Phillips that comes with stock is reasonable.

At present, I am using the M8080 Mullard tubes. Very quiet and I am not having any microphonic issues. I posted a while back about several 6C4 tubes I tried in the Supratek. Up to now, I am still convince that they are the "money" tubes on the phono section of the Chenin and not the 6922's. Although I am using a Telefunken on the 6922 position, my observation was that the 6C4 gives immediate feedback as to the tonal quality of the phono section when trying different varities. I rolled 6 pairs of different manufacturers of 6922's and I end up getting confused trying to identify if there's an improvement doing so. Maybe there was but I cannot comment on which was the best tube for me on this position from my experoment. Whereas the 6C4, as I said, the difference was immediate!

My recommendations as of today are (in order of being the "best" in my system) as follows:

Mullard M8080 (so far the best for me!)
Raytheon Triple Mica
National Union (looks like an RCA)Black Plates
RCA
Tungsol

What I found a waste of time are:

Motorola
Crosley
RCA Gray Plates
G.E. (maybe not the same type as Ecclectique is refering to)

Ecclectique,

Thanks for the advice and the compliment. Yep! it seems that the GE's that I have are the crappy ones.

I will look for the 6n23ev tubes. Hopefully I can experience their sonic character on the Supratek.

Yes, I agree that the Mullard 8080 is a cut above the other 6c4's I tried. Although my experience is that they have to be run for sometime before they show their true colors. At first when I got them, my impression was that they are quiet but the sonics are about average. After sometime (50 hours or so)playing music with them, they finally arrived! Piano and horns becomes full and with just the right extension, at least for me.

Thanks again!

Hello,

I just won an auction for a Sylvania Gold Brand gold pins 6c4 (GB6135). I used to have a pair of this tube but misplaced them when I moved. From what I can remember, they sound great in the Supratek phono section as well. I will compare it to the Mullard M8080 and report back.

Happy Holidays!

Stiltskin,

The tubestore.com sells the 6n23 tubes. (http://www.thetubestore.com/rus696h.html)

I have not tried it yet since I have lots of 6922's. The M8080 is hard to find but do shows up at ebay once in a while usually from a European seller. I read that locally Conrad Johnson have stocks of this tube since they use it on their new preamps. Maybe you can get a pair from them.

I am waiting for the Sylvania Gold that I won in the auction the other day (GB6135). From my notes dated June 2004, I jotted down that I "need to stock this tubes because it is superb in the Supratek,fully balance sound...etc...etc." I will confirm that when I receive the tubes and will let others be aware who uses 6C4's on the phono preamp.

regards

May I suggest a banquet hall?

Just kidding of course!

Same here! Same here!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

May you spend your holidays with your love ones!

Pablo,

Glad to hear from another very satisfied Supratek owner! Indeed, the preamp is special. I have no regrets from the money and time spent waiting to own this superb piece of equipment.

As for the 6F6G's, there are several sources. I bought NOS Sylvanias from DIYcable.com. During my shopping, I found the ff. stores that carry them:

http://www.audiotubes.com/bjtubes.htm

http://www.vacuumtubesinc.com/new2.html

The "brands" they carry are not listed on the site. You have to e-mail them to ask for availability of the brand you like.
I highly recommend the NOS Sylvania 6F6G Round plates dark glass (Blk. and Green carton). I sold my Gold Lion KT-66 and GEC Clear Glass KT-66 who used to be my favorite regulators after hearing the Sylvania 6F6G's.

Good Luck and Happy New Year to All!!!

Aurel,

I read that all Supratek preamps are tranformer coupled. I could be wrong but the info is in the website.

I believe the round semi-cylindrical "thingy" at the back of each regulator tubes are the transformer for each channel output. BTW, I have the Chenin.

Well, in any case, if you can post here I am pretty sure that your English is fine and Mick will understand your inquiry.

Correction:

"I believe the round semi-cylindrical "thingy" at the back of each regulator tubes are the transformer for each channel output."

I should have said "...were the transformer was "housed"...."

Thanks Slowhand for the correction. One question though, I have seen older Syrahs were there is a significant discoloration on the "dome" top not the sides near the regulators which un-mistakenably heat related. So these were the pre "in-house" series? My Chenin is almost 9 months now and it is still spotless! So that will point out that the change occured not more than 10-11 months ago?

Just curious. Thanks for any info in advance that you can provide.

Braro,

Do you mean that the manual says "Syrah" but you have the Chenin?

The Change in name from Syrah to Chenin as I recall Mick explained to me was necessary because of the new phono section implemented. If your preamp uses 417A or variants in the phono section, then you have a Syrah. If it uses 6C4 and 6922, then it is definitely a Chenin.

Yes, the manual mentions "Syrah" but if you look at the very first page, it says, and I quote, ..."Thank you for purchasing a Supratek Chenin Preamp.....".

Also, I believe the Syrah has a Master Volume Control. My Chenin does not have one.

I could be wrong but that is what I got.

cheers!

Braro,

Mine (Chenin) uses 6922 and M8080(6C4). I do not know about the M8081. I do not see any markings that says Chenin or Syrah on mine either.

"When you mention "master volume" are you refering to the adjustable gain on the back of the pre?"

The Syrah has a "master level switch" on the back panel which has 5 positions. Does your preamp have the same?

Mine does not. Maybe because my preamp has an optional independent (L and R) balance control. So Mick did not include the Master Level Switch.

Ask Mick directly. I am pretty sure he will calrify whatever doubts you have.

CORRECTION!

Braro,

My mistake! My preamp has a label for both the PS and the pre which says "Chenin", date of manufacture, and serial number to the location you specified previously.

cheers!

Welcome Arkio!

It will just get better, and better, and better, and better.........

congrats!

Ethifi,

In my experienced, the problem you described should come from the Bendix 6101. I had the Bendix beforehand when I received my preamp and found out the same anomaly as you pointed out. As you increased the gain, the popping (like a motorcycle idling) and tube rush sound increases in proportionality.

The Syrah can use the Bendix, but the Chenin (as Mick told me long ago) cannot due to a small change in the PSU. Maybe the new Chardonnay incorporate this change also.

goodluck

He,he,he,he.......we know what you mean!

I am feeling you! Okay,okay, take a deep breath, and congratulate yourself. Now, let me ask you, "was the wait well worth it?" Nevermind. I already know the answer!

happy listening

Hello Braro,

I too have the Chenin. If it was me, I will try the rectifier tube or the 6SN7's.

If the rectifier is noisy, the regulator will regulate the voltage just fine but will not eliminate any noise (ripple) that can pass thru. The 6SN7's on the other hand can be microphonic and will present the same problem.

just a thought

Dilly,

I have the 6F6G's (Sylvania with Green lable, smoke glass) and bought it NOS for <$45. Before acquiring the NOS pair, I purchased a "used" pair of this type from a fellow Audiogoner here. From my recollection, the 6F6G's (I can only vouch for the Sylvania's)de-throned my GEC Kt-66 clear glass and my GEC Gold Lion KT-66 as regulator tubes on my Chenin. The GEC's are very good as a regulator for the Chenin (but people swear the best is the WE 350B? I think if you can afford it). With the the 6F6G's, I found more definition on the detail I am getting from my vinyl rig (primary music source)than the GEC's. The GEC gives me a tad bigger instrument weight but I prefer the 6F6G's sound overall. Besides, a touch of VTA can correct the "weight" I am talking about in my system but not how good the detail and other parameters would be.

My recommendation is to find a used pair of the Sylvania's that test strong not the border-line stuff. Then you should be able to compare it to what current tube you have on the regulator position at the moment. Besides $45 is not really a burden of a price tag to experiment should the tubes dissapoint you.

goodluck

Ecclectique,

I, for sure, will be eagerly awaiting about your "voicing with NOS tubes" post here in the near future. Like you, I have some notes on my Chenin with various tubes I tried and will like to know and confirm if I am tone deaf or not!:)

regards

Patrick,

Sorry to hear your trouble. I am no expert but would like to offer my thoughts as I have the Chenin. Assuming that you already replaced the tubes in your Syrah, my question is:

1.) Are you using a step up tranny?
If so, please bear in mind that the Syrah can only take 2.5 mV input max. Unless your cart is 0.5 mV and below and your setting is 1:5, then you will have a problem. I know this because I tried with my Shelter 901 at 1:5 setting.

2.)When you said "distortion", does it have a symptom like one channel cutting out as well?
Because this is exactly what happened to mine everytime a tranny is connected to it.

3.) With the tranny, does it get better at say 100 Ohms setting instead of the 47k on the Syrah? Also, if you do not use a tranny, do you hear the same symptoms (disortion)at the 47k, 1K, and so on (depending on your cart)?
If so, you are definitely overloading the phono section.

Hope this helps.

Baranyi,

I assume you do not have the manual.

Looking at the back of the preamp,

Phono Loading Slider Switch: Top to Bottom = 47k,1K, 100, and 10 Ohms respectively if your preamp is standard. Otherwise, you have to ask the original owner on what config he requested (values).

RCA's from left to right: Phono input (considered as input 1), then input 2, input 3, and input 4.
Next is Tape REC and then Tape Play. Then it's output 1 and output 2. Gain, then power.

For the front knobs, Left is Volume control, and Right is the selector switch with the ff setting as you move CW: phono, input 2, input3, input 4.

As for the power cord, I find it better to get a good regulator tube than a power cord. The regulator tube's impact to the preamp performance is instantaneous.

As far as I know, many owners use different tubes. It is difficult to pinpoint what the best tubes are for each position from previous posters/text but it is a little easier to determine which does not sound good as you read the thread. For example, RCA 5692's does not bring its magic on this preamp. So as the Tungsol 5881, etc. etc.

I use the "low" gain setting on mine.

congratulations!

Most torroidal transformers have electrostatic screen. Besides, it is unlikely that DC will be present at the secondary. I would suspect that it is possible one of the rectifer is bad.

If you have a scope, you can look at the ripple voltage after the filter caps or at the regulator input to each channel. Most of the time it should be small (in order of millivolts). But if you measure around 100 mV or more, that could be the problem.

Just my thoughts.....

Abill,

I have the Denon 103R and works great on the RB250. Mine is OL Silver (moded 250). I know it is a little bit high from your budget stand point, but the arm needs a medium to low compliance cartridge because of the mass. Another good match when I have the RB300 is the Benz Ace series which can be bought used at around $250. Also, the regular Denon 103 is another cart you could consider and I believe is priced lower than the R version.

regards

It will come......but it may never leave!!!!

Congrats to Mc5baby and Raytheprinter.

Enjoy!

Raytheprinter,

Yes.......I know! You have to own one to understand isn't it? Wait 'til you roll them tubes (start at the rectifier if possible). Enjoy the ride!

regards

....or use a speaker selector switch.....one set wired as in-phase, another set wired as out-of-phase and so on....

For Chenin owners, I have some input regarding tube rolling for this specific model. For three months, I accumulated a lot of tubes and tried different combinations. Here are my observations.

The Bendix 6106 does not work for me. For CD source, it’s okay but not on phono. The 6106 produces a “chugging sound” on my phono section. No other rectifiers I tried (6L6GC, 6F6G, 7581, KT-66, and 5881) gives me this chugging sound on the phono section. I settled for the Mullard 5AR4 metal base on my applications. I had great results with the 5V4(RCA) tubes as well. For the 6F6G’s, it gives a lot of detail. But I noticed that it is “lean” on the phono application especially horn sounds. Vocals seem not as full as the 6L6G’s. This is probably why Mick said that it is only good for linestage. On CD’s, the 6F6G’s are open, airy, and detailed.

The biggest surprised I had was the Sovtek Kt-66 that Mick suggested. Right out of the bat in phono application, the tubes as regulators has the weight of the 6L6G’s (RCA) and very close to airy-ness to the 6F6G’s with good detail. It is not lean sounding at all and the horns (especially saxes) have a big bold sound. These are the tubes I am using at present (at about 30 hours now) and have the RCA 6L6GC black plates as reserve. Very good on CD as source as well.

For the linestage, my vote goes to the Tungsol Vt-231, RCA Gray Glass VT-231, and Sylvania tall bottle VT-231. The Sylvania 6SNW (short bottle) is great with a lot of slam which I find artificial (my preference only) at times just like the Kenrad VT-231’s. Other noteworthy linestage tubes I like are the JAN Raytheon Black Plates VT-231. It seems that most if not all bottom getter VT-231/6SN7 gives great results in this position and micro-phonics was not a problem.

In the phono section, I settled for the Telefunken CCa in the 6922 position. Followed closely by Amperex “A” frame, Siemens 6922 from 1972 and below vintage, and the Amperex Bugle boy’s.. Forget the 1980’s Mullard CV types. They are flat on vocals and ear piercing on the highs. Another great tube for this position is the Mullard ECC88 BVA from the 60’s or earlier. The only problem was that out of 5 pairs I accumulated, three of them are micro-phonic (you can determine this easily by switching to phono and turning the volume knob all the way to the max to listen for tube rush on the speakers with your ears pressed to it). Another good one is the Philips Miniwatt or the regular Philips 6922.

In the 6C4 position, nothing beats the Mullard M8080. I tried RCA, Motorola, Tungsol, Rogers, Sylvania, Raytheon, and GE’s. JAN or otherwise, the M8080 beats them easily with a very big soundstage and great tone. It just sounds right to me! I would say that the M8080 is on the the top of the heap followed closely by Sylvania GB 6135 and Raytheon 6C4’s.

There you have it. All of my observations are based on my system (Jolida CD player using Sylvania GB 5751 and Teres 255 with OL Silver and Shelter 901). Of course, your preference can be way different than mine.

regards

Larry,

Pleasure is all mine to give back something to our "community". I was in trouble once when I received the preamp, and with the help from people like you (and Ecclectique, Jazzdude, Bwhite, Slowhand, and the rest of the gang which will take me a while to name all)assuring me how good the Supratek is, the preamp will never survived in my system. Thank God I hang in there. Now, the preamp merry-go-round for me is over (for 13 months now and counting!)

Of course, extending patience until the preamp settled down before tube rolling really help a lot. I later found out that it is not the pre that I am having problem with but another component. But that is another story. I will continue on experementing and hopefully I can contribute my positive experiences to the board.

regards,

Abe

.....it's been quiet here lately......everybody's been tube rolling or what?

enjoy the music!

Kclone,

Did you check the rectifier(5AR4) tube yet? Maybe it is bad and the ripple coming from the output are huge and cannot be filtered by the regulators anymore.

Or have you tried connecting it to the wall outlet and not through the PS audio?

In my experienced, instantaneous or premature power shutdown are the worst enemy of rectifier tubes.

Just my opinion of course!

Abe

Hello,

I have two questions.

1.) For Chenin owners, Can you share your phono tubes currently in use please? I am enjoying great results with Mullard M8080 and TFK E88CC/CCa or Phillips 6922.

2.)Anybody using a Sylvania 6SN7Wxx tall or short bottle in their Supratek's? Thoughts, impressions?

So far, I have the Tungsol, KenRad, Raytheon, Sylvania, and RCA. All are VT-231.

Thanks

So, nobody is using Sylvania 6sn7Wxx on their unit?

Thanks JazzDude! Coming from you, I should not worry about getting them tubes then.

Thanks again!

Hello Patrick,

Congrats on your Syrah! My recommendations for rectifiers and regulators are as follows:

Mullard Metal Base Gz34 - by far, the best in my set up. Followed closely by the regular black base variety. In my Chenin, the 6106 produces a "chugging" sound on the phono section, so I cannot use them. One good bargain is the Mullard "Dynaco" branded GZ34 you can find at Ebay often. Also, the IEC Brand but Holland made GZ34's are great.

The 6F6G's(I have Sylvania's) are good in mine as regulators. But I am currently using the Sovtek 6L6GC's that Mick recommends. Very cheap but very nice in my system. I bought it as a match pair (within 2%) for $50 plus shipping. I noticed a little "thinness" on the phono section with the 6F6G's but does not have it with the Sovtek. In my set up only of course.

As for the phono, your preamp and mine uses different type of tubes so I hope some Syrah owners can share their experiences with you. Oh, one more thing, I have the PSU and the Preamp on Audiopoints (the smaller version)and I really like the results. As if more clarity and definition (but does not upset the weight)had been added to the presentation. I think it has something to do with "channeling" the vibrations from tubes away from the platform. Maybe you will like it. Just aks Tom (TWL)about the points. He works for the manufacturer in which I am not affiliated to by any means.

Happy 4th!

Abe

Ecclectique,

Thanks for the very "educational" explanation on why the chugging sound on the 6106 and not on the 5AR4. As a habit, I researched all the things you said and they are spot on frrom what you said as far as the difference between the two tubes are concern. For me, I will keep the 5AR4!

Anybody looking for a NOS (not even a minute used!) 6106 and a used pair as well? :)

The Bendix tubes I mentioned that are available in my previous post are now gone.

Thanks

Just bought another Mullard gz34 instead.
I truly hope it is better than the one I have at the moment,
which must be a dud as it makes the Syrah sound terrible.
I suffered it for a few days thinking it must come better but could not bear it and put the Sovtek 5ar4 back in.
I will keep an eye out for a bendix.
Thanks again.
Simon

You are into something here. Although the Mullards are great in my Chenin (Metal GZ34), you have to remember that when Mick listened to the preamp, especially the phono, the parameters were adjusted with the conventional tubes in service.

For example, the right resistance to properly biased the JFET's etc. If you open the preamp, you will see that there are rheostat's (blue) on some junctions that their primary fuction was to "tweaked" or "optimized" a certain parameter(s) (i.e. voltage or current)to voiced out the preamp.

...just a thought...

Fiddler,

Thanks for the report. Is it the Gold or the regular black base EH-6SN7?

I am in your camp also. After trying Sylvania 6F6G's, GEC KT-66, Gold Lion KT-66, RCA 6L6GC Black Plates, and Tungsol 5881, to my ears the Sovtek KT-66 is the better tube. I tried it after reading a post here that Mick recommended it to an owner. The tubes takes a while to settle (50 to 100 hours maybe) but when it does, they are beautiful regulators on my Chenin.

I will order the EH as soon as I see your response.

Thanks again!

Thanks Fiddler,

I live about 15 miles away from Kevin (Upscale Audio). As much as I want to avoid it (I can't help myself buying more than I intend to)I guess it is time to visit the castle of Mr. Deal.

Ola Kevin! Here I come......

Great post Slowhand!

You are into something here. Although the Mullards are great in my Chenin (Metal GZ34), you have to remember that when Mick listened to the preamp, especially the phono, the parameters were adjusted with the conventional tubes in service.

For example, the right resistance to properly biased the JFET's etc. If you open the preamp, you will see that there are rheostat's (blue) on some junctions that their primary fuction was to "tweaked" or "optimized" a certain parameter(s) (i.e. voltage or current)to voiced out the preamp

....exactly what I meant when I posted this a few days ago

Hey! What happened to Sounds_Real_Audio posts and the replies????

Sorry! Wrong Thread!

No hum for me! Or should I say only slightly! On phono, even if I crank up the volume all the way, or if the needle is in-between tracks and volume crank up, there is only a slight sound. I experienced a considerably louder hum at maximum volume if the tubes use (especially the 6922, try Mullard, these tubes are so noisy in my preamp and unfortunately I have 4 pairs)are not good. Otherwise, the preamp is quiet.

As for the linestage, I agree that there was never a problem there. My preamp is the Chenin with 6922 and 6C4 tubes in the phono stage. Currently using Tele CCa's and Mullard M8080's.

Here you go
http://www.supratek.biz/default.asp

or better yet , go directly here

http://www.supratek.biz/contact.htm

Okay, I am sold with the Mundorf's! Where did you guys get the schematic for your pre? Or you just replace the last pair of the coupling caps of the output stage?

Baranyi,

My Chenin's lay-out(back) goes like this:

From Left To Right
Phono(input1), Input2, Input3, Input4, REC(Tape), Play(Tape), Out1, Out2, Gain (Independent Channel Balance on Mine), and Power.

Enjoy

Thanks Amandarie! I noticed that you sold your H2O. Where are you going now with your system? Bob

Sold it because of financial reasons. I cannot justify a $2800 amp being used only 3 hours a week max lately. But I will be back! I am looking at Apogee and Henry's M series in the future.

regards

Kgturner,
The Bendix is a 5Y3GT (directly heated)and does not have the "soft start aka delayed start up time" feature that the 5AR4 has upon turn on. What it does is it wil strip your other tubes(cathode-stripping)because there is no electron cloud formed yet in the tubes before high voltage were applied(prematurely). The 5AR4 on the otherhand is a indirectly heated rectifier. They have different circuit characteristics. That is why some circuit design using the 5Y3GT has a filament heater first before applying the high voltage(delay). Here is a table of the typical "turn On" delay time (meaning full voltage appllied for maximum current)of some tubes:

5R4 5sec
5U4 6sec/6sec
5931 9s/7s/10s
GZ34 31s/33s/32s
PY88 40s
PY500A 45s/40s

Also, the 5AR4 has a lower voltage drop than a 5Y3, around 40 volts less than a 5Y3 at say 100mA current. So, replacing the 5AR4 with a 5Y3GT results in under voltage of other circuit stages that would shift all of the preamps operating parameters.

For me, it is on plain view that changing the 5AR4 with the 5Y3GT will change the characteristics of the preamp and of course its sound. That is why I stop believing that the 5Y3GT (6106) is the best rectifier for the Supratek because I think it is doing something that is not "healthy" on the preamps circuit masking as an improvement of sound. This can be proven very easily by measuring the rectified voltage (output) of the preamp PSU between two tubes.

This is the same reason why one of my previous post I commented that "the Supratek preamp parameters were voice/adjusted/calibrated to the tubes listed on the manual".

Again, all are my point of view/opinion. So take it with a grain of salt!

cheers

Hmmm...but I thought all 5Y3xx series rectifier (6106's generic is a 5Y3)are directly heated with the exception of the 5AR4.

Again, my opinion only!

Do any of you guys have the LP Soular Energy by Ray Brown on Pure Audiophile label? I got it for Christmas. WOW! this thing will test the limits of your system. The LP sounds fantastic! Some of the bass notes from Browns bass shake the whole house! I do experience some mistracking because of all the energy on the LP.

I do! Have it since 2004. Great stuff especially "Cry Me A River".

Have not experienced any mistracking on my rig with this LP. Maybe you have some rumble issue or a case of mis-match compliance between the cart and the arm. Assuming that the arm, VTF, and tracking force are all set up correctly.

Since we are on this topic, may I suggest Ray Brown/Jimmy Rowles "Tasty". From Concord Jazz CJ-122. This is the only record I have so far that bottoms out my 4 x Peerless XLS subwoofer drivers even at moderate volume setting on the preamp. Talk about dynamics!

Allen,The Chardonnay uses a 5AR4 for rectifier,i read in another thread the 5AR4 can be used as a substitute for 5U4,but not the other way around.If youd like to read the thread,do an audiogon search for "5U4" and click on discusion post,the same question was asked,hope this helps,Ray

Thw 5V4 can also be substituted for a 5AR4. I tried it on my Chenin. To me, it is better than most new production 5AR4 to date.