When we looked at WiFi modules, the cheapest were <$2.00 those were chip antenna based. The module we eventually settled on was still < $10 but allows an external antenna. Software extensions allow microsecond level synchronization between speakers. Latency is is sufficient for almost all applications and getting better. Acceptance is slow but growing. Live music applications will be slower to accept, the risk is high, but control functions will be the leading edge, then wired, then wireless where failure costs are contained. Leveraging mass adoption technology while maintaining private networks is hard to beat for cost, features and reliability.
My experience with microphones is it is all proprietary, low latency, was mostly analog if I am not mistaken. That price likely includes the microphone too?
Wireless transmitter/receivers have existed for speakers at <$1000/pair for a long time. All proprietary / low latency. Probably not audiophile quality.
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A few things confusing in the audiophile world:
I find just one thing "confusing" and the rest a matter of personal taste.
The MOST confusing thing is why would someone invest $$$$ in speakers and practically nothing in the room and room treatments because most of what you actually hear from that speaker is reflected sound, not direct sound.
This is fine of course, but what if you did the opposite? Spent $$$ on the room like @fleschler did and a more modest set of speakers. Would @fleschler like to weigh in on that one?
http://www.filmsound.org/terminology/direct.htm
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I wonder about a company that can go with a wireless option and still sell such a cheep speaker
I have these types of speakers/amps/preamps around the house as part of the Playfi ecosystem. When I am on the patio I run them in wireless mode. When in the LR I connect via ethernet and RCA inputs.
If you wonder about Dynaudio speakers they sell passive (The Confidence line for example), active that aren’t wireless, and active that offer both wired and wireless connections. Take your pick.
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@kota1 I took 6 years of of math and physics in college all pertaining to electronics and sound today I've forgotten 90% ya I'd call that confused. I love Dynaudio but I wonder about a company that can go with a wireless option and still sell such a cheep speaker since I know what wireless circuits cost, that means that the wireless option is not as good as a wire and there will be compromise from the start.
A few things confusing in the audiophile world:
Vibration dampening systems like very expensive equipment racks
Not buying speakers and amps designed for each other
Custom fuses
Expensive AC cables
Speaker cable lifters
Records
DACs that will let you listen to 256khz
Thinking you have a golden ear
Pace Rhythm and Timing
DSP fixing a system
Not understand acoustics
Speakers near walls
You can hear 20khz, you can't unless you are a baby
The music originally recorded at the recording studio was done by people that care about the things you care about in your system
psychological factors, confirmation bias = audiophile world more than you think.
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@donavabdear
The wireless feature in an option. they all have traditional wired connections too.
You can connect a source via wired, internet via an ethernet cable, etc. This is the back of the Dynaudio "wireless" Focus series:
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@kota1 My guess I've owned 75 sets of wireless transmitters and receivers and worked with 1000s. All these systems were professional and expensive usually averaging about $5k each some more some less. If it takes that much money to create a high fidelity wireless system how do they put that level of quality in a wireless speaker, I think the answer is they can't. The companies I dealt with were wireless microphone manufactures, Zaxcom, Lectrosonics, and sometimes Shure.
The problem is not the technology it's the FCC, Federal Communication System, they have to coordinate all the frequencies zooming through the air.
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@thespeakerdude Perfect answer, thank you. DF ultimately = punch in the low end, to be overly simplistic. It would be fun to list silly things that audiophiles worry about, mythology, technical incoherence that is common today.
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@donavabdear I assume you mean amplifier damping factor? I want to be sure we mean the same thing. For an amplifier, the damping factor is a defined figure referenced to a value of 8 ohms. Unfortunately, there is no requirement to publish it over frequency and it can increase for some amplifiers.
From a speaker point of view, a passive speaker, when tested, at least by main stream companies, is tested with a high damping factor amplifier, and even then, for accuracy, the signal is measured at the speaker so eliminate the amplifier from the measurement for frequency response. A high damping factor amplifier would also be used for distortion measurement.
For almost all solid state amps, the damping factor of the amplifier is so much higher than the internal impedance of the passive speaker due to the series impedance of the crossover and speaker driver, the the speaker, as a system, is relatively unaffected, at a gross level, by the amplifier. With most tube amplifiers, the damping factor is low enough, output impedance is high enough to have a significant system level impact on performance.
From an individual driver standpoint in a passive speaker, the impedance the driver sees changes as the frequency changes due to the series/parallel impedance of the crossover and that also changes with the crossover topology.
I am sure there are speaker cables with enough resistance to impact damping factor, but any normal speaker cable is going to have a very small overall impact on damping due to the series impedance of the speaker being large with a passive speaker.
When you connect a speaker directly to a driver, you eliminate the variable of the series impedance of the crossover. However, if you are using purely voltage drive, i.e. the output signal is just an amplified in voltage version of the input, then you still have the limitation of voice coil impedance limiting what people perceive as control of the driver. This is the limitation of connecting an internal or external traditional amplifier to a driver and using a line level crossover whether analog of digital.
That leads back to my discussion of why an advanced active speaker cannot be equalled, at least in linear motion of the transducer, by a passive version or a direct connected amp traditional voltage amplifier with electronic crossover, no matter whether inside or outside and no matter how expensive the amp. You are still working with the fundamentally limited voltage drive. Modern dynamic transducers are made to be as linear w.r.t. to voltage as possible. That is where much development has gone into w.r.t. motor structures (magnetics, magnetic components, voice coils, etc.). If you remove the restriction of pure voltage drive, and use combinations of voltage and current drive, then you can achieve more linear motion w.r.t. frequency. This can provide greater linearity over a wider operating range, and greater immunity to power compression. Current drive provides some inherent feedback (good!) that voltage drive just does not have and that is before getting into more sophisticated methods not to mention feed forward in the digital domain.
Rolling back to your second question. High damping factor ensures your speaker frequency response matches what the manufacturer publishes if they publish it. With most SS amps, the speaker driver and crossover impedance is so dominant that damping factor is meaningless w.r.t. "damping" the driver motion. There is no guarantee that the lower impedance is even the best dampening for the most linear motion. Think of a vibrating rod. Affix one end tightly, and it can keep vibrating. Hold one end lightly and it can keep vibrating. Hold it by the end with a mechanically absorbing material and energy is dissipated in that material and it quickly stops vibrating.
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@thespeakerdude So sorry here is another question concerning dampening factor active speakers and mythology of audiophiles.
The question is since dampening factor is super important how can audiophiles even consider this factor without the load of a real driver. I understand DF is the amps ability to stop and suck in a speaker driver but the stats of an amps DF is only part of the system you must have the particular load for the amp to see a DF rating that is real. I understand that manufactures want to standardize DF with a standard virtual load but isn't that really silly because of the huge variety of different impedances of speaker drivers at different frequencies today?
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@thespeakerdude Question for you, seems that dampening factor is a very misunderstood stat, and it has direct factors corresponding to active speakers. My Question for you is, is it possible to get dampening factor correct unless the speaker driver is directly connected to the amp and that system is tested together. Isn’t it impossible to have a real idea of dampening factor unless the amp is connected to a specific driver with a specific speaker cable. Isn’t this an incredibly important factor in designing speakers, another reason why speakers and amps not being designed for each other is utterly silly.
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Confusion cure- These are "the best" active/wireless speakers ranging from $500 to $11,000. Speakers like this not only have built in amps, but pre-amps, phono stages, dac’s, and you can use wires if you don’t want the wireless feature. The cost includes everything so you don’t need to spend extra bucks on a stack and rack of gear (or speaker wires). For anyone wanting instant decadence for a sweet price check it out:
"You could spend 2 or 3 times the $11,000 of the Dynaudio Focus 50 and not achieve that level of sound quality"(:24 minute mark)
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having an experienced acoustics person look at your room is the way to go
+1, now go find one
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@I don't know THX Studio Certification, I do know certification are simply a way to make money. Certifications like awards Emmys and Oscars, CAS awards are just to get a stamp of approval from peers. It really doesn't mean anything, having an experienced acoustics person look at your room is the way to go but certifications are only a way to make money for the certification company and Tom.
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Then you know THX-
For your HT calibration:
For your studio:
Good luck with your system.
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@kota1 I've met Tom and he was kind, I've got into some disagreements with him on Facebook but he has a really good heart. Thank you for the book reference.
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I get the impression @donavabdear could write most of that book.
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Get this book, good luck with your system:
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@kota1 I do tend to be a little disjointed sorry, I assure you I've spent many years in college studying the physics of sound as well as working as a sound engineer acoustical ,recording, mixing and production sound, I even did a little research of acoustics and water currents, it was kinda interesting to me but no one else and the math got very difficult very fast. The thing I do know about sound is how to capture it with microphones, the speaker is the opposite of a microphone applying reverse acoustic principles to microphone and speakers shows some simple truths. The world of audiophiles is great and I've really enjoyed seeing intelligent people be so passionate about it. For the last few years I've been reading the magazines and following some forums as well as talking to a high end stereo shop owner and the conclusion I've come up with so far is the audiophile community is really ran by the marketing of the magazines. Psychology in the perception of equipment and sound quality is much stronger than many are willing to admit. The mythology in the audiophile world is embarrassing. Imaging the huge amount of vibration the amplifier must go through living on the inside of the speaker cabinet at a loud rock concert and imagine a $25k equipment rack stating it helps the musicality of the song.
It is a tough argument stating that equipment shouldn't be made for each other, especially the amp and speakers, the DAC and the streamer, the speaker position and the room geometry. I don't even have an option of buying a first rate system that is made for each other (other than the Steinway Lyngdorf). With what you know about powered speakers and their clear advantages how can that be justified other than pure creed and pure conformist mindset of the audiophile community.
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@thespeakerdude
Would love to help but the guy from Sonos just called and I'm getting ready for my interview LOL, 😂🤣😎
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I would challenge you @kota1 to show an example of "cheerleading" into a rushed purchase other than your own posts.
You are speeding in that direction from what I see in your recent posts with your collaborator cheering you on, LOL.
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@donavabdear
How can an audiophile justify a vibration system of any sort with this in mind.
This is a great example of the silliness that audiophiles live under.
Given the budget you invested in your current setup most "audiophiles" as you describe them wouldn't have this many roadblocks. Don't take my word for it, go through the virtual system area and see, ask questions to the owners of the systems that you like.
I’m new to home stereo and I have you guys to pick your brains, if I started different threads I wouldn’t have learned near as much.
This is why I stand by my recommendation to use a professional system integrator. The way you have been posting all over the place it is clear you are new. Your system is very different than most members, including myself. I wouldn't do a mash up of a mix station and a home theater in one media room. Can it be done? Sure, but you need to measure each MLP and dial in meticulously with equipment choices, speaker setup, and acoustic treatment. IF you find another member who already has a system like that wonderful. Otherwise, you are just going to be taking risks with your budget. Quite frankly spend what you like how you like but that isn't my idea of how to arrive at good value.
I encourage you to stop by the thread I started on building budget systems that outperform. Then try visiting the thread about people that spend $100K on a system that underperforms. You don't want to be "that guy" that spent a lot, but didn't get a lot IMO. You are speeding in that direction from what I see in your recent posts with your collaborator cheering you on, LOL.
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@kota1 This thread did cover those topics but they are all threaded together with the ideas of proper speaker driver practices in general. All these topics happen when you mix active and passive products, we have been looking at the weakness of my active JL Audio 113 subs (d class amp) , the weakness of my BHK preamp tube ( noisy but a wonderful sounding tube component). I’ve tried to keep my general idea of synergy by buying PS Audio’s best components and Focal / Naim components just as synergy is achieved I fully active systems of the same maker like my Genelecs. So all this ideas are what you have when you try to compare and contrast synergy in a music system. And besides I’m new to home stereo and I have you guys to pick your brains, if I started different threads I wouldn’t have learned near as much.
I think I’m going to sell a building to a stereo company, so I’m going to be able to buy equipment for free I’ll just take it off the price of the building at a great discount. Couldn’t pass that up. I’m taking your advise and waiting for a while and learn more before I buy some better equipment.
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@donavabdear
Think how you would have avoided the potholes you are hitting if you would have stuck to the premise you started with in this thread. A matched system of processor/preamp and active speakers and you would have saved budget and aggravation.
Don’t attempt to DIY a fix, it is too expensive when you are talking over six figures into a room (or maybe two when you consider your mix station.) Get a good system integrator familiar with the brands you like, let them do the heavy lifting and kick back.
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@donavabdear
"correction" this may be the reason you are getting mixed up:
but let’s not call it time alignment, as that usually refers to a speaker correction algorithm. More accurate would be delay correction. Then throw in volume correction
Correction this has now gone past confusion and morphed into silliness
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@donavabdear You are correct, but let’s not call it time alignment, as that usually refers to a speaker correction algorithm. More accurate would be delay correction. Then throw in volume correction (and maybe frequency response correction). ATMOS to work properly must be calibrated to the listening (or mixing) position.
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This is a great example of the silliness that audiophiles live under.
This entire thread has been hijacked by confusion and has now morphed into silliness.
You are comparing consumers (audiophiles) with creators (artists, mixers, and mastering engineers).
Did you notice how much more you liked listening to your Paradigm speakers then your Genelecs? Did you worry about time alignment or did you enjoy the moment? Just like you changed speakers you have to leave your analytic ears at the mixing station and your relaxation ears to your other rig. I think having them both in the same room is why you are getting mixed up.
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@thespeakerdude Am I correct to assume that Dolby is counting on the listener to use time alignment algorithms in the everyday playback system? The difference in original mixing position and final listening position is probably about 5 feet difference in a typical room. You saying the sound is dominant corresponding to the L,C,R direct sound is interesting because in 5.1 the L,R, surround speakers play a bigger part and in music sometimes a critical part if the mixer is willing to take chances. Based on the best mixed Atmos music I've heard it really sound like a big stereo mix and the brave mixers were wearing the same hat as the early stereo mixers (Beatles) who panned hard L,R info commonly. Active speakers have different time arrival info than passive systems if Dolby does not assume DSP in every system the emperor has no clothes, if you know what I mean. Object oriented sound panning info. works no matter what the acoustic environment.
This is a great example of the silliness that audiophiles live under. They worry about time alignment to within ½ inch but active passive circuits have at least 4 milliseconds of latency in the original recordings if there are digital and passive circuits involved, there is no way to see or hear that much time differences because it is invisible to the post production mixer on movies or live recordings.
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The "theory" is that direct sound is dominant. If you change the listener position w.r.t. the speakers, than you also need to change the delay timings for the speaker which the processor does as well as the levels (and FR to some degree). So whether you mix with one speaker layout or another, unless you room is poor, if you are following the Dolby setup requirements, the sound should be very similar as frequency response, level and time of arrival will be the same in both instances. The variable is the room / speaker interaction, and in a mixing room that must be controlled.
@thespeakerdude I realize this but does it make sense to mix at one position and listen at another? Just thought that was an interesting thought, makes me think that so many things we do in sound has a coating of silly mythology in it.
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@thespeakerdude I realize this but does it make sense to mix at one position and listen at another? Just thought that was an interesting thought, makes me think that so many things we do in sound has a coating of silly mythology in it.
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A question I have in that regard on my professional system is my mixing position, I do sit much closer to the front left, center, and right speakers as does most every mixer I've ever seen. So my question is the disconnect between the mixing position doing the original object based mix and the Dolby listening chart you have posted that shows an end listener sitting in the middle of the room? Thanks
No, DOLBY is well aware that a forward mix position would be more common in a mixing arrangement (especially multi-use), resulting in a more orthogonal layout than an equidistant layout. You still need to hit 85db + 20db headroom (minimum) at the listening position from all speakers, so if you have some distance to your rears, they better be capable of sufficient volume. Your processor will ensure equal arrival time. From experience, watch the side reflections from the rears if a lot farther away. It will affect tonal balance and the processor can only do so much.
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@donavabdear
What started out as a thread about resolving confusion is becoming confusing as it is drifting off topic. Mixing positions? Subwoofer hum? Tube problems? Amps that sound like tubes but are not tubes? How to invest $200K? Problems with products that are not speakers?
Do you see why this is confusing in a thread on powered speakers?
These types of issues can be quickly resolved working with a local dealer/installer. You likely have someone local who carries both Lyngdorf and Paradigm, maybe even Meridien. With your budget that is probably the least risky, most productive way to go.
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@donavabdear ,
@thespeakerdude Great info on the P20s really appreciate it. Also the JL Audio 113 speaker buzz happens with no audio inputs at all. Thanks
Well that narrows it down really quick. Sounds like the subs are faulty. Found a few people complaining about buzzing JL subs (with no input) and the only solution was replacement. I think I mentioned that here or in a PM. Long extension cord is more resistance and inductance. Net effect would be similar to using the AC filters you did to eliminate the buzz. That is probably why both methods worked.
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@thespeakerdude Great info on the P20s really appreciate it. Also the JL Audio 113 speaker buzz happens with no audio inputs at all. Thanks
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@kota1 I did connect the Lyngdorf into the Genelec / ProTools system it was just fine I needed it in that system to use Room Perfect because the speaker positions were always a compromise if I looked at it as a stereo system but not from an object based system, the imaging is fine.
A question I have in that regard on my professional system is my mixing position, I do sit much closer to the front left, center, and right speakers as does most every mixer I've ever seen. So my question is the disconnect between the mixing position doing the original object based mix and the Dolby listening chart you have posted that shows an end listener sitting in the middle of the room? Thanks
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@invalid I suspected the same thing that the BHK was inconsistent somehow. I've changed cables AC and audio, changed AC circuits and the noise of the BHK has been the worst in the system, except for my JL Audio subs, which is another story. I replaced the BHK preamp with a Lyngdorf processor using its preamp and it was good and very quiet but no magic. I know the noise on my preamp is in the preamp because I can hear it in the headphone output with nothing plugged into the unit but AC. I believe I somehow got 2 noisy units, PS Audio offered to have it checked again on their dime, so I guess I'll give it a shot. I'm used to no noise at all perhaps that is the problem. Maybe I need to have my stereo equipment store to give me some other tube components to try at random. Thanks
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OP, did you try hooking the Genelec's up to the Lyngdorf yet in just two channel?
I'll bet it would be an eye (ear) opener if you compared the measurements of the Paradigm 9H's with the Genelec's in a stereo setup. Can Room Perfect print out a graph like ARC can?
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This thread started about powered speakers and confusion. I see a LOT of confusion in the last few posts that might derail this thread.
You don’t need tubes, power bars, exotic setups, multiple systems, and on and on people. The point of this thread is the advantages of powered speakers, not the confusion running amuk among the multiple posters here.
So look, let’s get down to it. To get a GREAT result for a very reasonable cash outlay here is an example. Two active speakers plus one preamp/streamer with built in room correction. That is all you need to get a great result. Don't let the confused posters make this complicated. Not your problem and certainly not mine.
I took two Paradigm active speakers plus one Paradigm PW Link preamp (entry level) and BOOM. Notice how flat the graph is even before the room correction. That is due to a large part of the engineers success building the speaker. I didn’t need to stress about amps, cables, yada, yada, yada. This setup would work great for a big room, an office, a bar, etc:
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@donavabdear hate to ask a dumb question, but the buzz does go away when you disconnect the audio input to the sub?
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@thespeakerdude
I will try better
No worries, I don’t think you could get any worse. If you ever get some actual speakers start a new thread so we can celebrate OK?🙄
@donavabdear
Easiest way to test is plug everything into a single power bar
LOL, this guy will lead you from one dead end to another, feel free to play around, just don't spend any actual scratch.
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@thespeakerdude I don't think that the BHK preamps are consistent from one example to another, some people claim no noise and others have a lot of noise. They didn't all have high sensitivity speakers either.
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@donavabdear , apologies for not ignoring the man child. I will try better.
Had heard a lot about the PS power plants, but never dug very far into them so read a bit and talked to one of my EEs. The PS units are not true isolated regens so that may be why they don't solve it. Odds are good that the extension cord is getting you onto the same phase as your other equipment. Shouldn't matter, if you can, plug everything into a single phase. Easiest way to test is plug everything into a single power bar. Just don't turn it loud and you should be able to test.
@invalid , a page or so back, I posted what Stereophile measured for SNR, 90db on balanced, but that pre-amp has really high output and they may have measured that 90db at the full output level. At a normal level, it could be 10-20db lower. That would be audible. The unbalanced are even noisier.
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I don’t think I can go active, other than the subs.
Then this would clearly be the wrong thread to get suggestions. If you change your mind and decide to go active, just post and I’m sure you will get some good recommendations.
You already have a SOA active system with the Genelec’s so I get wanting to dabble a bit.
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I think I’m justo going to buy some nice speakers and subs for my upgrade, I don’t think I can go active, other than the subs.
Like I said, you should start a build thread and get suggestions from other members. Just from your one post you already picked up some keen info from @invalid
I’ve seen multiple posts that claim the BHK preamp is noisy.
Who knows how many other people have experience with a similar product or issue that can give you some info based on their experience and the money they already spent, so you can save yours.
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@donavabdear
I don't see @phusis or @mijostyn claiming to work for a speaker company. IMO @thespeakerdude is another DIY guy who is all about the "talk" because unlike @phusis and @mijostyn he ain't got the walk.
However, the good news is you didn't drop any coin on his lame advice yet so while the entertainment factor is fine, at least you don't gotta take much risk.
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@donavabdear tube equipment isn't necessarily noisy, I've seen multiple posts that claim the BHK preamp is noisy. I have a tube preamp and a tube dac both with AC heaters and no audible noise.
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@kota1 The @thespeakerdude clearly works for a speaker company that doesn't allow social media so he's being careful not to give his credits. That's certainly understandable I'm very glad to learn from his experience as well as yours. Thank you both, you've been very helpful to me.
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@thespeakerdude All my components are balanced, but the subs have an AC hum my system runs off of 2x circuits both plugged into PS Audio P20 Power regenerators they send the power to DC then back to AC, seems good in theory. I've tried lifting grounds, no change measuring the voltage between neutral and ground nothing, what has worked is using an extension cord powering the subs from another part of the house and also using old ac filters like from monster and furman and such, but that's not a real fix.
@kota1 I will check out the meridian systems but I'm happy with the Lyngdorf processor and the BHK 300 mono block amps it's just the BHK preamp that is noisy. I took it out of the system and used the Lyngdorf as the preamp, everything sounded very clean (other than the sub buzz) but it didn't sound nearly as good as with the tube preamp so I put it back in and am living with the slight noise, I can't hear it when the music I playing anyway. Tubes are like that old girlfriend that you hate but is so good looking you can't let her go.
The Focal Stella headphones are paired with the Naim Unity HP amp it's class A power and is all owned by the same company so I thought the headphones and amp would work together nicely, nope, way to untube like way to analytical and harsh, the dynamics hurt my ears, so Im using the headphone output of the BHK preamp. My idea of synergy in this case didn't work very well I just don't use the headphones much, but I would like to.
I think I'm justo going to buy some nice speakers and subs for my upgrade, I don't think I can go active, other than the subs.
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Nothing I have said is even a slight bit outlandish
Sonos is trying to hire someone.. who can't even assemble a system.
I gave you some material to study
LOL, see the above.
participate in a more advanced discussion.
I invited you to my other thread, come discuss already.
I don’t feel called out by you
Yeah, what do I know, I'm just an unofficial moderator right?
whatever it is you think you are doing
In a thread on powered speakers I shared my 9.2.7 system... of powered speakers.
I shared how any member of this forum can build a matched system based on powered speakers on a budget of less than $10K to more than $100K ($200K if you include construction costs of the room).
If I posted about a tube sounding solid state amp its because I actually used it, on the same brand of speakers of the OP.
Please come to the other thread, there are many budget systems that have been painstakingly curated by members here (some even have pictures in the virtual system area)
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@kota1 ,
You seem to fancy yourself an unofficial moderator. You pull the same childish stunt with everyone. @donavabdear I doubt in any way felt called out, and neither did anyone else. I don’t feel called out by you, I feel you are simply immature and trying to show off. Nothing I have said is even a slight bit outlandish, but given your lack of knowledge and experience, it may seem that way. I gave you some material to study so you could participate in a more advanced discussion. I hope you have brushed up, but how about this, instead of further derailing @donavabdear ’s threads with your antics, you stick to the topic being discussed and only the topic and leave your need to bully me or whatever it is you think you are doing in your head.
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