Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

Back in 1999 I had the idea to build a fully horn loaded speaker system with the bass being played by folded corner horns back in the corners and mid range (actually wide range) and super tweeter horns being well out into the room where they could image better.  Obviously DSP was needed to correct the large distance difference between the various horn drivers.   It was 2004 before I found a DSP unit which would do everything I needed at a price I could afford.  That DSP was the initial commercial offering from DEQX.  I built the system then.  It was initially somewhat disappointing.

Over the next thirteen years I changed woofers, folded corner horns, midrange horn drivers, added horn super tweeters and went through six different changes of amplifiers as well as upgrading the DEQX.  I programmed and reprogrammed and reprogrammed the DEQX over and over.  Programming the DEQX  is neither quick nor easy.  I had the system sounding really good, but I always felt it could be better.  Then in 2017 I engaged the services of a DEQX company approved DEQExpert, Larry Owens,  Mr. Owens, a very smart man, connected his PC to my PC which was connected to the DEQX,  and we communicated via a Skype call while he did speaker calibration and correction, time and phase correction, room correction and crossovers.  If I remember correctly he took a total of about seven hours in two or three sessions to complete the process.  Crossovers were set at 200Hz and 8 kHz with all roll offs being 96 dB/octave.

The speaker/amp system finally sounded as I had imagined it back in 1999.  Modesty prevents me from using all the superlatives I feel my system deserves, but when fellow audiophiles come for a listen and say things such as, "that's the best I ever heard that song" I am immensely gratified.

Thus I have an active system with drivers and amplifiers of my own choosing with every element being easy to change.  I think I have the best of both worlds.

I second the opinion that horn loaded subs in the corners are hard to beat.  I use Bill Fitzmaurice designed HT Tuba corner horn loaded subs.  They are 18 cubic feet each.  In my fully horn loaded DIY DEQX DSP equalized system the output at 25 Hz is identical to the output of the 1 kHz reference tone with a roll off of about 18 dB/octave below 25 Hz.  I use 96 dB/octave roll offs for all crossovers.

Resonances at room modes were a problem so I sacrificed seven or eight dB of sensitivity with the subs to EQ by pulling down peaks.  The horn loaded subs are so sensitive that after that seven or eight dB reduction they still have a sensitivity of 96 or 97 dB.  The  final result is very tuneful, powerful, articulate bass that goes way down deep.

I totally agree about the virtues of active speakers.  My triamplified, fully horn loaded, DEQX DSP crossed over and corrected, DIY speakers are a good example of active speakers that allow the user to select enclosures (horns), drivers, amplifiers and DSP.  I first cobbled together the speakers in 2004. Since then I changed woofers, bass horns, midrange drivers, went through a total of eight different amplifiers and two different DEQX DSPs and programming and reprogramming the DSP (no simple task) over and over  before I got the system to sound and measure as I wanted it to.  It took me a total of thirteen years to arrive at the sound I enjoy today.

I could have bought commercial active speakers without all the trial and error work, but what fun would that be?  That would be like hiring someone to hug and kiss my sweetheart for me.

donavabdear, do any of your Genelec speakers have the dynamic correctness and dynamic excitement and immediacy of a large properly designed fully horn loaded system with horn bass in the low 20s Hz range, DSP crossed over, speaker corrected, room corrected, phase and time corrected speaker system?

speaker dude wrote, "I won't speak for @donavabdear, but I will speak for myself that the question is essentially irrelevant and is begging an answer. Phase corrected is essential for any working speaker design, time corrected looks much better on a marketing sheet than providing verifiable listener benefits. And yes, I have personally done the testing. Dynamic correctness, dynamic excitement seem to be implying the same thing. How long can you play, and what effects of any concerning dynamic compression. Horn loading / compression drivers is not the only way to achieve this of course. Horns provide, properly designed, constant directivity, but using a standard woofer/mif-woofer and a wave guide tweeter provides similar benefits without the side effects of vertical directivity lobing which can cause unpleasant reflections off vertical surfaces, likely one of the reasons why some people "don't like horns".  I think we can agree that a real horn loaded speaker at 20Hz, even a tapped horn is rather enormous and outside the realistic realm for most people. To achieve true directivity at the frequency is just unrealistic and you are not going to avoid room modes. Velocity/position feedback eliminates power compression issues in subs, and cheap efficient amplification is plentiful. Just put in a bunch of power subs and be done with it."

I respectfully beg to differ.  My DIY speaker system uses Bill Fitzmaurice designed HT Tuba 25 Hz quarter wave folded corner horns.  The output at 25 HZ in my DEQX equalized system is identical to the output at the 1 kHz reference tone.  The output at 20 HZ is still audible and musically useful.  They are 18 cubic feet each but wearing a nice coat of Blonde Burmese teak veneer with solid teak and brass trim and tucked away in the corners where they need to be they don't seem particularly obtrusive to me. 

Including the horn path in the bass bin plus the distance out to the midrange horn which is well out into the room where it can image better makes the separation between the acoustic centers and the woofer and the AER BD3 midrange drivers over 16 feet.  The time correction provided by the DEQX DSP makes the acoustic centers of those drivers sound as though they are within 3 mm (less than 1/8 inch) of each other.  That is not in any way irrelevant.  If you have ever heard properly executed horn deep bass I think you would understand the difference between that and using a bunch of power subs and perhaps even learn what I mean by dynamic excitement.  I notice that Genelecs best subwoofer is already 6 dB down at 27 HZ.

My system is active using six channels of amplification. Contrary to donavabdears contention that audiophiles who don't use a bunch of little active cones and domes in a box are confused I respectfully beg to differ with him also.

speakerdude,  when you state that If my bass to mid crossover is above 120 Hz the bass will leak into the midrange I doubt that you have considered that I am using 16th order (96 dB/octave) crossovers.  Your objections to my system are all theoretical because you have never heard them.  Those who have heard them , including many audiophiles,have never complained of the things you just "know" have to be wrong with them.

I am bored with hearing your censorious comments on speakers you have never heard.  I think this will be my last post on this thread.

donavabdear wrote:  "@kingharold How did you get into active horn speakers? I would love to hear some not PA horn speakers. I think Im going to go to the audiophile event in Illinois in the spring, hopefully there will be some there." 

Back in 1999 I had the idea to build a fully horn loaded speaker system with the bass being played by folded corner horns back in the corners and mid range (actually wide range) and super tweeter horns being well out into the room where they could image better.  Obviously DSP was needed to correct the large distance difference between the various horn drivers.   It was 2004 before I found a DSP unit which would do everything I needed at a price I could afford.  That DSP was the initial commercial offering from DEQX.  I built the system then.  It was initially somewhat disappointing.

Over the next thirteen years I changed woofers, folded corner horns, midrange horn drivers, added horn super tweeters and went through six different changes of amplifiers as well as upgrading the DEQX.  I ended up with Bill Fitzmaurice designed HT Tuba folded corner horns driven by a good Dayton 15” woofer.,   BD Design Oris 150 horns driven by AER BD3 8” drivers and Fostex t900a bullet supertweeters.

  I programmed and reprogrammed and reprogrammed the DEQX over and over.  Programming the DEQX  is neither quick nor easy.  I had the system sounding really good, but I always felt it could be better.  Then in 2017 I engaged the services of a DEQX company approved DEQXpert, Larry Owens,  Mr. Owens, a very smart man, connected his PC to my PC which was connected to the DEQX,  and we communicated via a Skype call while he did speaker calibration and correction, time and phase correction, room correction and crossovers.  If I remember correctly he took a total of about six or seven hours in two or three sessions to complete the process.  Crossovers were set at 200Hz and 8 kHz with all roll offs being 96 dB/octave.

The speaker/amp system finally sounded as I had imagined it back in 1999.  Modesty prevents me from using all the superlatives I feel my system deserves, but when fellow audiophiles come for a listen and say things such as, "that's the best I ever heard that song" I am immensely gratified.

Thus I have an active system with drivers and amplifiers of my own choosing with every element being easy to change.  I think I have the best of both worlds.  Besides that the system is not ugly.