Your new proposed setup will work fine.
Apple-lossess is fine too, although there are some CODEC artifacts, so It's not perfect. It is the best thing to do with Mac. You could also look at AIFF.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve said: why do you need the AE? I currently use an AE as a base station/Internet router in my office, which is where I store my music (on a noisy Lacie 500GB hard drive). I use this AE + wi-fi network to beam my music to my PowerBook in my listening room. So the music runs through the PowerBook (which also serves as a glorified remote control) and to my stereo via 1/8" analog headphone jack. The goal is to replace the 1/8" analog connection to my stereo as economically and efficiently as possible. I am not personally attached to any particular method (Firewire, USB, Toslink). Perhaps I misspoke by including Firewire in my proposed setup. (Sammie said Firewire is better than AE, but perhaps I'm comparing apples and oranges at this point, since I would not be using AE to connect to the DAC. Sammie also said to limit Firewire runs to 1 meter, which I can't do realistically in my proposed setup.) So.... If Toslink allows for longer (25 foot) runs, then that would seem to be a great advantage (and would allow me to keep the PowerBook on my lap). So, here's the (corrected) proposed set-up: G5 -> WiFi -> AE -> Powerbook -> Toslink -> Reclocker -> S/PDIF coax -> DAC -> analog -> Arcam amp As for 24/96, I am ignorant. I don't know what my current/future capabilities or needs are in this area. I play Apple Lossless, but can/should I be ripping my music differently? |
Syncrasy - why do you need the AE?
Networked audio, particularly if you are only doing 44.1kHz sample-rate will be more trouble-free than USB. I would only do USB if you must have 24/96 capability. USB tends to hog system resources. It can work great for audio, but if you are using an AE already, why not use it to stream the audio data?
Also, if you are using a reclocker after the laptop, why do you need Firewire/USB? Just run Toslink directly into the reclocker from the laptop. This avoids many of the issues with the shared USB and firewire buses.
Steve N. |
Steve, are you saying that
G5 -> WiFi -> AE -> Powerbook -> Firewire/USB -> Reclocker -> S/PDIF coax -> DAC -> analog -> Arcam amp
is not desirable or technical feasible? If so, Why? |
Syncrasy - the connections would be:
Powerbook -> WiFi -> AE -> Toslink -> Reclocker -> S/PDIF coax -> DAC -> analog -> Arcam amp
Steve N. |
Steve, just to clarify... I said: Where in this hierarchy would you place the following setup:
AE (wirelessly) to PowerBook to (via Firewire or USB) reclocker to DAC to Arcam amp? The source of the music files is my PowerMac G5/Lacie Firewire hard drive (transmitted by the AE to the laptop). |
Steve, thanks for the additional information. I have another follow-up question. You said: The ideal scenerio is the AE driving some kind of reclocker and then outputting I2S bus to a good DAC. This will achieve the lowest jitter and the best analog quality, assuming a good clock in the reclocker and good analog design in the DAC.
Next best would be AE driving some kind of reclocker outputting S/PDIF coax to a DAC.
Third best would be AE to a DAC with upsampling to reduce jitter to some extent. Where in this hierarchy would you place the following setup: AE (wirelessly) to PowerBook to (via Firewire or USB) reclocker to DAC to Arcam amp? This is the setup I'm considering. (Hence my question about potential jitter for wireless data--I did mean streaming audio data, not just plain data.) Thanks! |
I've found this thread interesting, and I hope I'm not hijacking the thread. But I have a question about a "reclocker" between the A/E and a DAC.
Audioengr: would you mind making a recommendation for a reclocker? I'm enough of a newbie that I'm not even sure where to look for such an animal.
I just this morning received the remaining (minus a reclocker) pieces needed to set up my music server: CD library on iMac ==> Airport express ==> Digital out via digital out on A/E to TOSLINK cable ==> Musical Fidelity DAC ==> Denon integrated amp...
Any help on the reclocker would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Eric |
Syncrasy wrote:
"Are you saying Airport Express's optical *and* analog outputs are jittery? Does AE jitter come into play if I'm using my AE simply for wireless transmission of data?"
Yes, both are very jittery. The clock in the AE is a relatively high-jitter oscillator.
The analog outs are poor simply because its a really cheap D/A implementation. For wireless transmission of data to a printer etc., real time clocking is not an issue. There is the data and then there is the timing with audio streaming. Timing jitter is a non-issue with data transfers other than audio such as to a printer.
"When you say that the DACs in computers are noisy, are you referring to obvious background noise (i.e., static) in the signal, or more subtle noise (i.e., distortion) in the music?"
Both. There is sibilance (audible HF noise)in the analog signal due to noisy switching power supplies (electrical noise), poor power decoupling and poor signal paths. There is distortion due to all kinds of things, including poor D/A filter caps, poor coupling caps (dielectric absorption), poor power delivery to the D/A chip etc. It's just a really cheesy environment for a D/A chip and op-amps, which are very sensitive to power, PC board design and ancillary discrete parts.
Once you audition a well-designed DAC, you will know what I'm talking about. There are many levels to audio quality. We are obviously in totally different realms you and I if you dont hear gross distortion and noise from the analog outs of a laptop. It does not take a trained ear to hear the difference. It is just a matter of experiencing a resolving system.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve,
Thanks for your response. I'm a newbie to digital audiophile-dom, so could you please clarify a couple basic concepts for me...
1. Are you saying Airport Express's optical *and* analog outputs are jittery? Does AE jitter come into play if I'm using my AE simply for wireless transmission of data?
2. When you say that the DACs in computers are noisy, are you referring to obvious background noise (i.e., static) in the signal, or more subtle noise (i.e., distortion) in the music? (I don't hear any obvious noise or distortion in the analog output of my PowerBook, but perhaps my ears aren't trained to hear it.)
Thanks! |
Your welcome.
Steve certainly has some compelling products that will address any scenario you can come up with. And, there are many other manufacturers you'll come across as you research this stuff who have their own solutions.
The thing I've found out about the AE is that while not ideal for my main system, it works absolutely fine for streaming music to other, less maniacal systems around the house.
Good luck. |
To get a stellar result with AE, you must address two things: first the jitter issue - AE is one of the worst sources for jitter, and then the DAC issue. Forget about using the DAC's in the Computers or these end-point devices. They are not good quality. Very noisy and not dynamic for reasons that I will be happy to explain. Use the digital output instead.
The ideal scenerio is the AE driving some kind of reclocker and then outputting I2S bus to a good DAC. This will achieve the lowest jitter and the best analog quality, assuming a good clock in the reclocker and good analog design in the DAC.
Next best would be AE driving some kind of reclocker outputting S/PDIF coax to a DAC.
Third best would be AE to a DAC with upsampling to reduce jitter to some extent.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Thanks Sammie and KJ for your responses. I'm still assessing my situation and reading more on the topic.
KJ, why do you have both Airport Expresses *and* DACs? Are you doing this to bypass the AE's built-in DAC? Perhaps this explains why you haven't observed the AE jitter that everyone else seems to complain about. Can you clarify? |
I'll offer my own experience as a point of view although I do NOT have a Mac serving the music (PC). I have beeen streaming Apple Lossless wirelessly to three (3) AEs (one at each stereo), which in turn are feeding the DACs via Optical digital.
My collection is entirely from CDs I've burned to the hard drive, a number of which are HDCD. The relevance is that when these tracks come up the DAC's HDCD indicator is illuminated. IMHO, this suggest the data is fairly pristine and fully reconstructed just as it would have been from my CD transport. In practical terms, the AEs do a great job (to me) with the digits.
Where I've had issues is with interference (microwave oven) and dropped connections. I never could pinpoint or fault the AEs, the router, the wireless access point, etc. My office is in my listening room where I stream about 6-10 hours a day--having this working reliably is very important to me!
This weekend I pulled network cabling to all of the AEs so they're now hardwired to my network switch. Now, there's no interference, dropouts, etc. And I can turn on any/all of the systems for whole house sound that's perfectly in synch!
What Sammie said about using the iPhone or iTouch is true--I have an iPhone with the free "Remote" application installed and it's fantastic! Controls iTunes (play, pause, skip, find), displays the album art, playlists, etc. Very cool but only works w/iTunes which I don't consider a hardship at all! |
I'm rather new at this, and I can't comment on your "share" stuff, but I think I can share a few things I've learned about how to optimize for sound quality....
1. sound quality will be best if you go USB or Firewire from the powerbook direct to a DAC. Also, if you go USB or Firewire, the cable should be pretty short -- 1M or so.
2. Airport Express is certainly an option, but the DAC in the AE is not so good. And, if you go AE to a DAC, there's a lot of jitter created by the AE, which will again negatively affect sound quality.
I've tried both.....Macbook to USB DAC and using a AE. Macbook direct to DAC sounds much better.
3. You can use a Iphone or Itouch to control the powerbook remotely. I haven't tried this, but I've heard it works very well. |
