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POWER TUBES and Musical genre

EL34,KT88,KT90,KT120,KT150
I think its high time we all come together to present our experiences, testimonials, opinions, and best guesses.
Ok so my journey in power tubes has been rocky , shootouts too quick to see who really won the draw.
I had kt90’s..Not bad, in the Defy7,,not bad at all,,,then I madea good deal on some 88’s, and swaped out the 90’s,,,Maybe a bit superior, but really close,,,can not recall the shades of dif, and now the new 90
’s were sold off at 50% loss.
Then I read somewhere, maybe here on audiogon,,or another forum,,the 150’s were **killers**,,so i thought
~~Bigger MUST BE better~~I mean just look at the 150, really cool looking 21st C High tech power tubes

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk0029KWREk7QDaFsPD8olvPrEySraw:1589600030456&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=kt150+tube+image&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFuJnJubfpAhUDiqwKHac1B2sQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=1536&bih=750#imgrc=637YiieWd71i3M

But as my latest YT vid shows,,~~Bigger is not always better~~~ in power tubes. I only listen to CM, which requires a power tube which will reflect the best image for instrumental, which is FQ range say 2K-8K hz.
These fq’s seem to become all ~~muddled~~clumped together~~ which means the mids sound stretched, if not a ~~Stressed Midrange~~ sound.
To be frank, I hate the Kt150 in my Defy7. Sure the sound is slightly *bigger, more bold**, yet gives up what the KT88’s offered, a tighter mid fq range.
At least this is my assessment so f far,,i will bring the 88’s back to my tech guy and have him ~~rebias yet again~~ for the 88’s.
A long time member here who knows jadis well, suggested his fav tube for jadis curcuitry is the EL34,,which might even be a superior match for my style of muisc,,classical in all its forms.
can not make that expense at the moment.
Just consider, , I figured the KT150 with its large construct would deliver the wider, deeper fq’s in all areas. vs the smaller power tubes...
Its quite possible it is the EL34 tube which will deliver the sweet crystal clear, highly defined, separation in the orchestral sections,,,,a tube i completely over looked due to its ~~wimpy construct~~ vs the massive KT150.
So we should all consider which style of music, or better~~which power tub is preferable~~ to each music style.
Jazz
Jazz w vocals
Rock/blues
Lite Classical
Heavy orchestral.
I would tend to say the big power tubes/single ended are finest match for easy jazz/vocals. 300B/805 etc. But then now the speaker limitation gets involved, low eff vs high db impedance.
After rolling back to the 88’s, i will post a new YT upload..
The thing about rolling tubes, is ~~memory~~ how well the nuances are noted and registered in the experience.
I think I have the 150’s locked in with several reference cds to say what the 88’s bring to the muds vs what the 150’s did not do so well with.
Thing is, there will be new M caps installed and that also might influence the shoot out for midrange voicing. The ~~all things equal~~ law , will be dismissed here as i have no intention of listening to the 150’s with new caps, then bringing amp back to tech for rebiasing for 88’s.
So my critical comments on the 2 power tubes for mid fq’s, will be ~~biased~~ as new Silver Gold EVO Supreme’s are installed with the 88 setup.
later on I will order the EL34, which as i say, Trelja and my tech both are in favor of the EL34 for the Defy.
That shootout will be later this year.
based on my experience of the EH KT90,,I’d say the 88’s supplied a slightly superior sonic sound stage/,,but midrange fq’s were about equal,,at least best to recollection.
The dif was subtle and hard to decipher in a A/B compare. Blindfolded.
Another factor which could be mushing the mid fq’s all lumped ina glob,,is the preamp.
Preamps make a huge dif on how a power amp will voice.
,
I note Jadis makesa Intergrated I50 specifically designed for the kt150 tube,,I’d love to hear it and see how well the 150’s perform in classical/jazz mid fq range.
Hi-Fidelity definition?
Or
Muddled mid fq’s? (the I50 most likely will accept other tubes ie 88’s).
I recall someone on a YT vid comment was adament,,no , in fact, i was the one stubbornly refusing to understand/accept his opinion the EL34 was ~~best mid range tube made~~,, He really took offense at my follow up comment promoting the 88 as best all around power tube.

Now that said,,I would surmise /guess , the el34 can not provide the punchy bass which the 90/88 pounds out.
However a certain pre which is on my wish list , has a 2nd pre out for a sub amp/woofer sitting in my closet..which will make up for the slight lack of bass slam( percussion) missing in the EL34’s temperment.
Anyone care to share their ideas, experiences in tube rolling and which tube might best suit each musical genre.
These discussions may offer valuable info which may lead to better decisions in choosing the power tube which best suits each musical genre...
Last note,It will be a  big surprise if the EK34 ends up dedliveringa  superior, tighter mid fq section in my classical/vocals, vs the mighty 150..
The Q here is , will the EL34,,anemic in appearance sitting next to the ~~beastly looking~~ 150,,,will this humble, original designed pre all other  power tube year built/designed,,,will this tube deliver the mid fq's hat i have been searching for all these years???
Also will the EL34 not look ~~awkward,~~ sitting in sockets  with 3 huge trans sitting behind?


 .
p



mozartfan
11 responses Add your response
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Just  now googled 
The Superiority of the EL34  power tube
and found this article written by Tim Smith for Wall of Sound
Note the accolades *pefection, liquid mids, elasticity, bounce, ~~ and so on. 
You'd think it is true the original design power tube  might just offer everything its bigger brothers offer, but in an tighter, more controledn nuances.
I always say, new is not always better. In this case may be true more than ever.  as far as mid fq's are concerned. 
It just does not stand to reason the humble 34 can provide the puncky bass a  88,90 can deliver.
Here is where a  pre with 2 outs comes to aid the 34 in the bass, by addinga  subamp. 
all the previous opinions will have to be tested out , my hunch is the el34 will champ all other power tubes in what i am looking for in mid fq voicing. 
Forget the super high fq/lowest notes,, I am not at all concerned with that register,,Its the low/higher mids which is 90% of my muiscal listening  experience. 
anyway read this article on the el34,,and you too may be convinced the original designed power tube is ,,,for mid fq's,,~~The Real Deal~~ ideal  powerr tube
Only wish the YTer who announced to me the EL34 was his fav all time power tube, could read now that i too am comming around to  champion the EL34 as ideal voice for mid fq's.

https://blog.thetubestore.com/audiophile-review-el34-family-tube-comparison/


mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Read long time member rcprince's comments on the ~~wonderous midrange~~ of the 34
3 post from top, from sept , 2004
some things should be ~~believed~~, had i read his post, and figured 90% of mt muisc ranged in the mids,, I would not have made the investment in the 150's.
and not only that i would not have bought the 12 KT90's last year which i also dumped at half loss.
I will live with the 88's til i can afford to add 12 el34's to my defy,,,and that will be the tube for the ages. 
went full circle,,but came back to the 1949 original power tube.
I think also Richard Grey is a huge fan of the humble el34, as he spoke many good things about that tube and has rare antique amps he boasts are some of the  finest sounding,,these antiques employ the el34.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/which-power-tube-sounds-better-el34-or-6550?highlight=el34%2Bpower%2Btube

roberjerman
4,319 posts
 
Sid Smith (the original USA Marantz company designer) used the EL34's for all those amps of the Fifties: Models 2, 5, 8 and 9. In that era the Marantz amps were considered the best available!
roberjerman
4,319 posts
 
Let us not forget the best-selling tube amp of all-time - the Dynaco ST70! The EL34 rules here!
roberjerman
4,319 posts
 
Let us not forget the best-selling tube amp of all-time - the Dynaco ST70! The EL34 rules here!
mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
Thing is , was the 88/ and 90 ar0und in the 50's?
had Sid Smitha  choise between the 3, would he stillm have chosen the el34 are the ideal tube for his amps?

I guess in some applications the 120, 150 might be suitable for a  particular  sound  so desired. 
Every audiophile has a  dif musical collection. I just happen to have all classical,,with no need  fora  tube that can bust out solid bass guitar riffs and beasty pounding drum solos. 
Perhaps the el34 will not deliver the ~slam~ so required in heavy jazz, rock and roll. Thats none of my collection, I  use jazz/blues cds in my vids  only for voicing the dynamics of my system, I acutally mostly  listen to 20C classical, some pre 1900, not much. 
I do not need a  power tube that offers ~~Slam~~, which the 88/90 might  best the 34 in that regard.

This is the purpose of the topic, What are your needs ina power tube? I hada  el34 cayin for a  short time,,,But can not say i know how the 24 will sound in the Defy. 
maybe the 88 is my ideal tube.,,I am willing to invest in 12 el34's later this year.
I can say for sure the 150's did offer more head room, wider depth to the music,,but at a cost of liquid, separation in the mids.
As i mention, my amp comes back with 12  Mundorf .47 silver gold EVO Supreme caps,,, This might open up the high fq register,,allowing the 88 a   sweeter voicing. 
I am guessing the 88 provides  a  superior upper bass fq voicing  where the 34 might sound ~~anemic~~, 
Not sure if i can give up the upper bass strength of the 88 , in place of the 34's super sweet mid/upper mid range. 

Maybe a  EL66 or a  EL77 might be another choice here,, and lets not forget the 90,,which  jadis has always favored in the amps. 
The EI KT90's hada  mid range which was life like,,voicing for real,,but also came witha  high end distoryion which gave fatique,,Never too care of that amp,, as far as rebiasing, adding new tubes..
IMHO had i gone with the EH90 and Teles in the single AU and dual AX sections,,I'd still have that lil amp today.,,and have kept me from a  huge investment these past 15 years. 
Sold it for $1200, now i am about to buya  pre for the Defy at $1400,,and still don't know if that pre is going to give what i had with the JOR... I could have bought 3 new JOR's considering all I've invested in getting this Defy up N running as per what the JOR offered,,or had even more potential to offer.
NOS Tele, all new M Silver Gold EVO Supreme + new EH 90's or 88's, ,,,I was unaware of the potential of that lil intergrated at the time. 
~~~research is everything and good solid advice can prevent poor choices in this hobby.
I was forwarned by the Defy seller back in 2008,,**you will needa  goiod pre,,you realize?** I brushed that off, thinking the Defy would voice the muisc, and less so the pre. 
man was i wrong. 
the pre is like the brains,,the power amp the muscle. 
So at the very least, lets work with what i have , and try to get the ideal  power tube in the Defy. 
Let me now look at the Kt66,KT77;'s in the consideration as ideal mid range/upper  bass  power tube. 


mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
OK just founda  YT upload which gives the EL34 vs KT88, Now many of you can not detect much dif, as the camera mic + comp speakers,,really are far from ideal listening room  experience.. But I can tell, through these low quality mediums,,the EL34 is weaker vs the KT88,,provided the tests were made with vol at equal level,,which i assume is so.
I have to go with the KT88 over the EL34. 
The 34 sounds ,,as i guessed ~~anemia~~ vs the larger power tubes, .
From faint memory of the EH 90s in the Defy and the KT88's, I found the 88's givinga   wider, deeper sound experience,,not by much,,we are talking ~~nuances~~ here. 

But again,,adda  nuance here, another nuance there,,it all adds up to our goal, non fatigued, clear well defined mids. 
The upper fq/lowest fq;s, these come AFTER mid fq's. 
So I am going back to 88's and staying with 88's. I will not consider adding EL34's,,as the KT150 investment deal, has busted my stereo budget. 
Well at least I know i do not have to invest in EL34's. 
IMHO the KT88 is the ~~Ideal~~ if not ~perfect~ power tube made today. also IMHO all 88's sound exactly the same, There are no *holy Grails* in the 88's. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uj8ViII68E
yoby
539 posts
 
"IMHO all 88's sound exactly the same"
I have to disagree with that statement. I my amps (MFA M75 monoblocs) and in my listening room I've had the SED Winged C and the Genelex Gold Lions installed, and they clearly have a different presentation.

















mozartfan OP
2,143 posts
 
*clearly* *dif presentation*, yeah a  nuance of one, lacks in the other /nuance if the other lacks in the one. 
We are talking ~~Miniscule~~ a  term my Baton Rouge tech guy likes to use in talking things stereo. 
Even the nuances in the 90 vs 88, were so ~~miniscule~~ as to really not matter,,However for my CM fq range, the 88 was perferable, by a  slim margin. 
The 150 offered more *head room*,,but lacked the  life like sound stage of my JOR with KT90's, which madea  band sound live in your living room. 
This defy so far has never given me that impression. 
can not blame it on tubes alothough the 150's mids were muddy/ likea  rolled up bundle,,never to be sorted out.
Well see how the 88's deliver with new M caps. I am hoping for good things,,but not expecting a  miracle. 
I am expecting the cayin sc6 will be that miracle to open up the Defy7. .
I could be wrong here,,can any one report on their experience of the 150's in the Jadis I50?
If no response,,then we have to assume based on my experience  that the 150's is a  flop when it comes to offering nuances./separation in the mid fq's. Which is The Critical range in everyones system. 90% of music is in the  lower mid-lower high fq's. 
 There is no such power tube that will deliver deep slam bass, sweet separated mids, shimmering  golden highs. 
Which is why i have chosen the 88 as  the best candidate for overall superior performance in 
bass slam/mids clarity/stellar highs.
Mid range separation/clarity is the key to the whole choice in power tubes, Start there,,then tweak with new caps, new pre tubes., which can enhance  what the power tubes already are delivering. 
I know others like all sorts of pre tubes, I am a  big fan of the Teles. But again< i need to make a  shootout twix the E80 and Tele AU's. 
I am no expert in listening for nuances,,,,i need days to hear whats REALLY going on with each mod and each tube. 
Adding a  new mod  opens the doors fora  previous mod's voicing its magic. 
Nuances, thats what we are looking to add with each mod.
Many of you can detect how a mod has affected a  nuance, or take away from the sound,,within minutes,,whereas i need  a whole hour of various cds. Maybe even 1 full day. 

.



oldhvymec
5,101 posts
 
I didn’t see a thing about 6L6, KT66 or 6550 KT88. The American version of the valves. The 6L6 is still one of the best valves ever made.
It can be used from soup to nuts. From PA, to voice one of the best sounding amps EVER made. MC 30s, 40s and 240s Think about what was used to make the original recording, live, and on the road gear. The 6L6 was and still is, one of best sounding, toughest all around valves, ever made. The sound can vary quite a bit. Slow and bloated, to bright and very tight bass and mid bass.

The 6550 is another. A lot of folk try to say 6550/KT88 in the same description. They are not the same valve. They don’t sound the same and they both have many different, valve quality issues. KT88s have one of the largest selections of different manufactures too pull from. KT88 is a good valve, lots of power, a lot of amps are voiced with them? Why? Cheap just like the 6L6s, an a ton of new, old, and used stock.
Look at the GREAT sounding 6550 GE TungSol. Few valves can match the all around sound of the valve. Maybe the 6L6 RCA BP. 6L6 Coke bottles. NOS RCA 6550s. In a MC60, just a magical valve.

The EL34 is a great valve, NOW, there is a great pool to choose from. 25 years ago, that wasn’t the case. KT77s came to the rescue for 10-12 years. They really were a British rock sound... US 6L6 sound.
Ruby, Reissue EH, Green and coke bottle, NOS. I love the valve when it’s used, MB on up. I think the best pairing of Valve and SS was and is the KT77/EL34. 3D, holographic are words that come to mind..
I love them in my Cary. I think it's the best I've ever had or heard with my systems

Regards
tablejockey
3,894 posts
 
I hear the old RCA big bottle 6l6G, as a nice compromise. Close enough EL34 mids, and bass punch of a KT88.

It's been my choice for years now. Surprisingly, still can be found for  reasonable prices. 

Worth a listen, if your amp can accommodate the lower voltage of the 6LGG.  
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