This is one of the more ridiculous ideas in audio, but, to help our nation's economy, I won't discourage people from buying $2,000 magic wires.
However, the suggestion that the power line frequency changes from 60 Hz is completely wrong, and if it were it would have no effect on the DC voltage generated from it. The power transformer might get warmer. No power cord could have any effect on frequency. Power companies maintain tight tolerances not only on on frequency, but also phase, even when the voltage sags due to problems. This is necessary so that different generating facilities can be tied together in a grid, and because many kinds of electrical equipment (eg: clocks) rely on the frequency for a time reference. Actually, once a day, usually around midnight, the power companies go through a brief procedure where the frequency is very slightly modified for a short time as necessary to have the exact number of cycles in one day (5,184,000). If they didn't do this electric clocks would gradually loose or gain time. |
Just as an aside, if you are still in posession of any of the power cords that you mentioned, I would be happy to give you a fair price for them. |
I was pretty much a power cord agnostic until I had the opportunity to change five of them (to monoblock power amps, VPI SDS, PS Audio P300, Sony XA777ES) at once. Wow. Nothing subtle about the improvement. "Course I have no idea which cords did which, or whether any of it is measurable. But there's no going back. |
my 1st experience w/pc's was when a friend brought over a
mit pc w/the blk bx. We were listening to "strange fruit"
on a cassandra wilson cd. The cut opens with a "match striking" sort of in audio slow motion. With the stock cord
you could not readily identify the sound as a match but only
tell that there was some kind of little noise. The only component I had w/a iec connector for a pc was my vtl deluxe
preamp. We put the mit in, replayed the track, and realized
that the sound was a match striking. Of note is the following: NO I didnt immediately go buy an mit. I did order
some audioquest heavy guage speaker wire,solid core,unshielded from micheal percy, (he's always popping up
in these discussions isnt he?) and an iec plug and male ac
plug, and made a pc up. Guess what? I could hear the match
strike with this cord too about just as good for about $40.
worth of materials. Further, I later added very fast,soft recovery diodes to the high volt and heater circuits and these actually made the now famous "match strike" even more
audible and much smoother and more detailed. Bottom line,
wether its pc's or soft rec diodes anything that LOWERS THE
NOISE FLOOR is going to be helpful. Made a shielded pc for
my rebuilt dynaco mk III's and they just seemed a bit quieter. All this was about 5-6 yrs ago. Just now getting
back to thinking about pc's because I happened to build 2
mono amps w/removable cords. Also it has been my own and my
friend erics experience that rewiring pwr supply leads w/solid core silver wire also can lower noise flrs. Please
use appropriate guage and insulation. |
I hear differences between PC's on most of my components, some more than others. Do I think these differences would be revealed in a blind test? Could be that they wouldn't: I personally am of the opinion that blind testing is a very good way to *obscure* fine sonic differences, not to reveal them. But I also believe that the placebo effect is quite real, and can be about equally confounding to sighted test results as is the deliberate confusion intoduced by the blind ABX methodology. Still, although I have to admit that some of the differences I've thought I've heard have been very subtle, elusive, or tough to repeat with consistency, others have seemed unmistakable and unchanging.
Anyway, one of the simplest explanations for why the last few feet ought to matter is the question of shielding. A theory goes that a large portion of the EMI radiation the incoming power is exposed to is actually generated by the system components themselves, therefore making shielding an issue between the wall and the gear. Since stock PC's are generally unshielded, if this supposition is true then it could help explain there being an audible difference. This theory might also be turned around: A stock, unshielded cord might be acting as a 'broadcast antenna', radiating 60-cycle noise that could interfere with nearby components.
In fact, a lot of the potential differences could be explained in basically similar terms - that is to say, that the aftermarket replacement cord is doing something competently that the stock cord did poorly. For instance, if the stock cord distorts the incoming power due to spurious internal strand resonances, this might have a detrimental effect just as it could in a speaker cable or interconnect. Or the stock cord might serve as somewhat of a 'bottleneck' during heavy demand (maybe being too light in guage), current-limiting or time-smearing the power required by an amplifier on transient program peaks.
Or, as Drubin alluded to, some aftermarket cords may be doing something active, like intentionally filtering high frequencies. Or as Sean says, the degree of difference might be directly correlated with a component's power supply quality (or lack thereof). But the bottom line is, if you look at a component's power supply as being in the signal path (which I do, since the output of any amplification device represents modulated wall power, and *not* the original input signal passed straight through), then it only makes sense that purer incoming wall power could result in a higher-fidelity output signal. So in an age when most audiophiles are in some way 'conditioning' their power after the wall socket before it hits their components, it additionally only makes sense that you would strive to preserve that powerline purity between the power conditioner and the gear.
The 'last 3 feet' argument-against also overlooks the real possibility that if you could somehow replace all the powerline wire going back to the breaker box, or to the utility pole - or even all the way back to the power-generation plant - with the same aftermarket PC cabling you use from the wall, then the sound would just get even that much better ; simply because you can't doesn't mean you won't be able to hear *some* (albeit less) potential improvement merely by upgrading the final cord (and particularly if *that* happens to be one of the 'weakest links' in the overall power-delivery chain).
But: I agree that the degree of difference made by aftermarket PC's is probably often oversold to some extent or another, and if you can't hear an improvement for yourself, then just consider yourself lucky (monetarily speaking) and continue to listen happily through your stock cords.
P.S. - It is interesting to note that the brand of amplifiers reputed to have some of the most sophisticated power supply engineering in the audio world, the Halcros, nevertheless are now sold outfitted with base-model Shunyata upgrade PC's as stock. Yes, this could just be clever cross-marketing, but it is highly doubtful that Halcro in any way needed to do this in order to help sell their premium-priced product. Given their 'slide-rule-driven' company image, I suspect they've sincerely determined that anything less would truly be insufficient to serve as their 'stock' cord, kind of a remarkable thing when you stop to consider that at these price levels, many if not most of their customers will be intent on immediately upgrading to ultra-premium cords anyway. |
There are different ways to use your "snake oil."
I have an AC cord designed to eliminate mechanical resonance between the wall outlet and power distributor. Then, the power distributor has a passive filter that clears up the emi/rfi. This combination cleans up a lot of junk fed into the home wiring. |
The power cables you are discussing are basically the same; so why should you expect a difference? There is only one power cable that is truly different and commands the technology that astounds; but you won't go there because the answer sounds to radical. You chose to cling to the same old ideas and complain about the results. |
The power cables you are disscussing are basically the same; so why should you expect a difference? There is only one power cable that is truly different and commands the technology that astounds;but you won't go there because the answer sounds to radical. You chose to cling to the same old ideas and complain about the results. |
Slappy, your comment about the last 3-6 feet is exactly what each of us has asked himself. Ditto with hardwiring your components. The thing is, I think, you have to think about it a little differently. The high-end PCs--some of them at any rate--don't simply provide better signal transfer for that last 3-6 feet, because--as you say--who cares? Rather, they DO SOMETHING to the power before it enters the component. What they do varies and is beyond me, but I think that's what's going on. Think of it not as an extension of the Romex in your wall but an enhancement or filter or whatever to the signal just before it gets to the component. I'm technically unqualified to give any sort of explanation, but this "theory" of how it works helps me make sense of the clear differences I hear with some cords. I wish it weren't so. |
WOW! I read another thread on Power Cords, looks like they beat this issue to death.
The way i see it,
Group A Cannot hear any difference
Group B Hears a massive difference.
I wouldnt say group B is wrong, there are alot of audiophiles that i respect strongly stating that PC's make a difference
Same goes for group A.
Here is my reasoning why some people CAN and some people CANNOT hear a difference.
Group A has crappy cable in thier walls, so that it is basically matched with the stock cords. That extra 3 feet they plug into the wall doesent make a Difference.
Group B has real good cableing in thier walls, and probably shorter runs to the Power Box. They very well may hear a big difference, because the stock PC cord is not as good as thier electrical runs. When they upgrade to another PC, which is more of the calibur of thier electrical runs, it improves sound.
There. It is settled for once and all.
If you cannot hear a difference with a high end power cable, then fire yer contractor and hire somone to run some real good quality cable.
I read about 1/2 of that thread and there was alot of immaturity, alot of heated debate, and nobody mentioning the possibility of crappy electical runs installed in the house.
There. It is solved. you can all thank me later.
Im gonna look into electrical runs, and when i buy my house im gonna have it wired up with the best.
because damnit, when i buy that 200.00 power cable, I BETTER HEAR A DIFFERENCE OR MY FIANCEE WILL NEVER LET ME BUY ANOTHER COOL GARDEN HOSE AGAIN! :) :) :)
Peace! :) |
Sean, I'd love to see the charts you're talking about. There has been a raging debate on TalkBass.com (a discussion forum for bass guitar) about power cords, and everyone is asking for measurable proof.
jd |
Honestly i think some of them are worth it alone for the presentation they show.
The fiancee and i are debating buying a new house or the one we are renting. If we buy a new house, ill be in a position to be able to do alot of nice electrical work for my system. Im gonna make sure i got real good cable from the box to the outlets. Maybe then i will be able to hear a difference?
Who knows. They definatly make yer gear look aot more burly though.
I think im gonna go read Sean's post he was talking about. im curious about this.
Hey sean,
you certainly do know yer stuff, no doubt about it. What are your opinions on the issue of the quality of cable from the power box to the outlet? Do you think that few feet of high end PC would still make a difference? I would really like to hear your insight on this, you manage to point out things that alot of people miss.
Has anyone ever heard of somone doing a direct connect from thier amp to the power box with no outlet? Wonder what effect that would do.
I know if i had a rig like say.. Brainwater, i'd be making damn sure my stuff was up to par all the way to the electrical plant.
hahahahahha |
Slappy, You're right on track. Who knows what garbage is being fed from the breaker panel and there is little one can do to correct it anyway (within reason). As you said you'll probably hook one up just the same. I'm currently using a BMI whale and yeah...It looks cool snaking its way from the amp to the wall but I know damn well it aint doin a damn thing. In fact,I again installed the cheesy factor cord and no difference at all. My wife still believes that its using twice the electricity "well its quadruple the size" she says. Eh, I love her just the same.
Think about it. How can you possibly spend 2k on a power cord and not believe that it adds that magical mystical final tweak that your system needed. ??
Levinson, Cary, Sonic frontiers, Krell...blah blah blah. I hear no difference in presentation. Could the slight difference that bigkidz hears with speakers be due to the fact that the components involved are at the very least momentarily turned off then on again to interchange a different power cord ?
So, who among us knows anyone with cryo'd,silver plated,shielded, electrical wiring from their breaker panel to the wall socket. The only possible advantage to a big dollar cord might be the lower resistance to current flow it provides due to the larger conductor. In the end though...you still either have 110vac @ 60hz or you dont.
My next cord purchase will be the cheapest cord I can find that looks good. Unless of course one of you out there can convince me otherwise ;) |
this is something im skeptical on, i have no experience with high end power cords. I can see the logic in a dedicated outlet, however there is one thing about the high end power cords that make me dubious.
with high end power cords, you are merely changing the quality on the last 3-6 feet of electrical path. So, it would make sence to me, that your power cord will only be as good as the electrical cable bringing the power to the outlet. So if the cable from the power box is crap, then spending a buttload of money on a power cord wont make a difference.
Its like crawling through 20 feet of crap and putting on a tuxedo on the end. The presentation is better, but yer still covered in crap
thoughts?
Like i said, i have no real experience with the high end power cords, but changing the quality of the last few feetof the electrical path seems like it wouldnt make a big difference.
Funny thing, is im sure i will be hooking one of those garden hoses up to my amplifier as soon as i get a good amp
hehehehe
wait a second, Ok, here we go. On the same train of thought, why have a cable at all? why not run the power from your powerbox directly to your amplifier? Wouldnt that be the ultimate power cord? |
I hear the differences in PCs but nothing huge, just slight changes. I hae a friend who hears more than me with his system. I also have dedicated lines. I will eventually get around to trying one the conditioners to see if I can hear more of a difference with one. So I also think it depends on each system. With my B&W speakers I hear less of a difference than with the Talon speakers.
Happy Listening. |
Somewhere in the archives you'll find a post that i made where i actually charted a difference in system frequency response when swapping AC cords on an SACD player. I'm not saying that this is the norm, but that some components are far more susceptible to changes in the AC feeding them than others are. The units that respond the most vividly to alterations in AC cords are the units that are the most under-designed. That is, so long as one is not altering the polarity of the AC. Some units have very specific polarity needs due to built-in filtering. Reversing the polarity negates the effects of the filtering. Sean
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