I don't know what Corona is specifically speaking of, but i'd love to have this subject expounded upon in a more specific manner. Along with Kool39's question, consider me the second party that would like Corona to further discuss the thoughts expressed earlier in this thread. Sean >
Audioengr: I was trying to work through a problem with someone that had Innersound speakers. During the height of their problems, they called up and spoke to Roger. In passing, they mentioned that they were using Goertz speaker cables. At this point, Roger just about came unglued and went on a rampage about high capacitance cables and stated that using such products would void the warranty on their power amps.
As one might realize, his amps are built by Coda for him. Some of the folks designing Coda gear also helped in the design of older Threshold products. Since Threshold products are sensitive to high capacitance cables, it would only make sense that the same designers might end up with similar results on the Coda product line.
Having said that, i've not had any problems running Goertz cables with ANY amp. This includes, but is not limited to, Threshold products. That is, so long as the proper precautions ( Zobel Network ) are taken. Those that disregard these speaker cables out of fear or ignorance are missing some very good yet "reasonably priced" cables in my opinion. That is, if one likes their system and recordings to sound like music rather than processed data.
As a side note, i just installed a set of Goertz MI-2 Veracity cables in my Father's system yesterday. These replaced some Audioquest's that i had previously brought over for him a while back. In his own words, "My system has NEVER sounded this good". I would have to agree. There is now a far more "liquid" and "natural" presentation to the sound that i haven't found with any other cable. Sean >
S23Chang - the equivalent wire gauge is what is important, not the gauge of a single wire. Low inductance cords are always made using multiple wire to get that low inductance. Resistance is only one piece of the pie. Inductance must be low as well and larger gauge just does not get this for you.
Corona, I agree with you completely. My brother is a metallurgical engineer with 25 years experience. He has taught me a lot about this. This is why the wire needs to be fabricated properly and handled carefully in the assembly process. This is how my "Perfect Crystal" stays perfect.
Sean - what I heard from Roger (via my dealer) is that he is concerned about the capacitance of the speaker cable resonating with the transformer windings of the speaker. I don't believe he is concerned much about the amp oscillating. I believe Roger has a treatise about this on his website.
Thank you Sean. I guess there is no point for me to change from 12 to 10 since I don't really have a dedicated line for my stereo system. The power cord I need is only less than 3 ft long anyway. Like what I observed from 14 to 12, there probably will not be much difference from 12 to 10 in this case.
S23chang, I don't know about all the EE stuff, but higher and lower gauge cables do sound different and has different effects on different types of component ie digital front end and amps.
One anomaly I found is I like higher gauge on digital and modest gauge on amps.
S23chang...Voltage drop aside (because that depends on how long the wire is) 12 gage wire is acceptable (building codewise) for circuits that draw 20 amps CONTINIOUSLY. This is based on the wire not getting too hot. It will actually carry much higher current, and even the 20 amp fuse or breaker that the 12 gage wire is supposed to have will carry 30 amps for quite a few seconds...and longer if it is a slow-blow or time delay type.
S23chang: The longer the run, the more series resistance. The longer the run, the greater the voltage drop. As such, heavier wire will never hurt you ( other than the pocketbook ) and can only help. You have to remember that some people may have runs in their house that are 100 foot long or longer. To top it off, some product do pull way more than 6 amps of current, i.e. high bias power amps of good size. Couple these with low impedance speakers that are low efficiency and you've got an instant "power sucker" all ready to go. There are amps on the market that can drink everything that a 15 or 20 amp circuit can deliver when being pushed hard. Besides that, building for "worst case scenario" right now covers you for any changes made in the future. The difference in cost right now would be nothing compared to what it would cost to re-string new, heavier gauge wire at a later date.
14 gauge should be fine for any line level components. I would recommend at least 12 and preferably 10 gauge for an amp. Really big amps may benefit from 8 gauge, especially if you have a long run. If running everything from one dedicated line, use the heaviest gauge feasible. Sean >
Does it make sense to use greater than 12 gauge for the power cord since the outlet itself to the breaker box is only 12 gauge? In most cases bigger is better. However, if the outlet can only give you 20 Amps then what's the point of using a 30 Amp power cord since your device is drawing less than 6 Amps anyway?
Anyone did A/B test with 12 gauge vs 10 or 8 gauge? I've compared 12 vs 14 and it doesn't make much difference. 12 gauge seems to give slightly better bass than the 14 but not by much. From my own A/B test, the difference is no greater than 2~3%.
Audioengr: According to Phelps Dodge research dept. continuous wire is more of an exercise in marketing than reality. Once the wire is bent it has as many fissures as any other copper wire. Remember, copper is a crystal and all crystal structures are brittle.
Due to the design of the Innersound amp, which is somewhat similar to the older Threshold's in terms of design theory for the active circuitry but not power supply, the amps will go into oscillation and self-destruct if you use a high capacitance speaker cable with them. That is, if you don't use Impedance Compensation networks with the high capacitance speaker cables. Roger does not like very high capacitance speaker cables and, from what i've been told, thinks that they are an "abomination" of some sorts. I've also been told that running very high capacitance speaker cables ( like Goertz ) with the Innersound amps will void your warranty. Sean >
Audioengr, i believe in speaker cables and in interconnects as i've herd differences between diff. cable manufacturers...and i believe in power cables for SOME applications, but not in all of them...happy listening!
Iasi - I understand that Roger contracted Coda Technologies to design the Innersound amp for him. Same guy that designed the Coda and Continuum amps. I have heard from one of my dealers that Roger is not a cable believer, however he does spec a low-capacitance cable for his speakers.... It is hard enough to convince believers.......
Eldartford - 99% of modern copper wire is oxygen-free. It's mostly marketing bruhaa.. There are a few examples of poor wire, but if you use a reliable source like Belden, Alpha or Carol, it's all good stuff.
Now, if you want the best-sounding wire, you should try continuous-cast copper. This is good metallurgy. you can get this at vampirewire.com.
I don't know anything about oxygen-free copper, but I can tell you I bought 4 pairs of oxygen-free copper interconnects, with gold plated rca's, from 1 to 4 meters yesterday. They ranged from $.75 to $3.00 on clearance at Walmart. They also had a decent gauge and nice cover. So I wouldn't think one should pay too much for the privilege of oxygen-free. In addition, some right to lifers might find it cruel to sufficate all those little copper strands.
Audioengr...I will check out your source for large gage hookup wire, and will use it if possible.
On a slightly different matter...I have heard a million times about the wonderful effect of "oxygen-free copper", but I don't recall any explanation of why ordinary copper is a problem. Can you tell us?
Audioengr...talk with Roger Sanders at Innersound and tell him that power cord made a difference with his amp..I wish I could hear his reaction when he hears/reads that...now, how do I suppose to know which power cord is the "right" power cord?....i wish someone could publish a list of "right" power cords and "not-so-right" power cords...i'm sticking to my beliefs: a well-designed/made power amp does not need a power cord...
Hbarrel - I will not be driving from Oregon to Akron, sorry. BTW - Power cord effectiveness has little to do with how clean the power is.... See my FAQ page at: http://www.empiricalaudio.com
Iasi - I have had the Innersound ESL amp in my system for a couple of weeks. I know the design of this amp (by Coda Technologies) - no negative global feedback, strictly class A/B and lots of protection fuses etc.. - however, you have to be careful about removing IC's before it's fully discharged. My power cords definitely made a difference with this amp. Maybe you have not tried the right power cord yet.
sean....Aw shucks. I am just beginning to get interested in this PC thing. Since the original Kenwood PC are so "crummy" I won't be wasting my time replacing them, and I will do it with multiconductor configuration that you suggest. I checked out listings for power cords, (I need 2) and it seems that your idea of a few bucks is different from mine.
If I can figure out how to send you an attachment (test plan with diagrams) with EMail I will doi it.
Eldartford: Forget about buying parts, doing the assembly, twisting the wires, etc... There are PLENTY of mass produced cables like this on the market that you can buy for a few bucks.
Hbarrel: Glad to hear that you've got good power where you are at. You must be one of the few in the country.
My business is located in a small rural town. Until i called the local electric company and kept raising hell with them, i was experiencing severe voltage sag, massive amounts of distortion, etc... While the AC was never "good", it had continued to get worse and had finally reached a point that i was beginning to have major problems. Since i have test equipment hooked up and pay attention to the AC and how the equipment runs, i was the first to notice the problems in the area. When i talked to the other tenants in the building, they said that they were not having any noticeable problems.
Within a week, several computers went belly-up in other businesses and other problems started developing. After a half dozen more phone calls to the power company from me and other tenants beginning to call, the utility company came out and re-examined the system again. As it turns out, the pole transformer was VERY old and was not up to spec. That probably explained the voltage swings from 118 volts down to 104 - 106 in the middle of the day. Once they changed the transformer, voltage hovers at about 120 - 122 and is rock solid. There is still distortion of the 59.9 Hz sine wave, but it is FAR superior to what i was getting before.
At my house, which is inside of a highly populated City, my voltage stays pretty steady at about 123 volts. If it is REALLY hot out in the summer with every air conditioner in the city turned on, i'm down to about 118 volts or so. Regardless of the fact that we have a steady supply of power, the 59.9 Hz sine wave is always distorted. While this does clean up quite noticeably at appr 1 - 2 AM, it is still not as clean as one would think.
For the record Hbarrel, you should try looking at your AC line with a spectrum analyzer. I'm near certain it isn't as "clean" as you think it is.
As to your comments about AC cords, i've already stated that much of what these filters / line conditioners / power cords are doing is nothing more than band-aiding poorly designed gear. Nothing more, nothing less. Sean >
I'm going to agree with Eldartford. The whole power cord marketing scheme is smoke and mirrors. You're invited over to my house to prove me wrong. I live in an Akron, Ohio suburb with nice clean power at, most of the time, 60Hz with a nice looking sine wave.
I have no idea if it had an AC input filter...the amp that I tried the experiment on was Innersound ESL amp into a pair of Innersound Isis speakers...I wanted to see for how long will the speakers play if I remove the power cord from the back of the amp...it went with no problems for about 10 seconds...the sound faded away in about 15 seconds...
By the way, why does the power cord have to be "audio quality"? It only has to pass 60Hz. Besides, audio is AC, and the power gets rectified, so any "audio" characteristics of the AC get lost.
"Also, the greater voltage drop in a wimpy power cord does not translate into degraded sound provided that the power supply is robust."
So, show me one amp which has a "robust" power supply. I have never run across an amp yet that did not benefit from a low-inductance power cord, except those that have inductors already in series for filtering (bad idea IMO).
Seans guidance on the power cord construction is very good. The star-quad achieves the lowest inductance. Multiples of them will be very effective.
I would be wary about using "high-temperature" wire. The copper in these is usually sub-standard for audio purposes, as is alarm, telephone and control wire. Find a good Alpha or Belden hook-up wire with pTFE insulation.
sean...Thanks for the design spec on the power cord. Based on your suggestion,I intend to use so called "high temperature" wire (intended for range hoods and oil burners) which has very thin insulation. It is readily available. I could use magnet wire, with super-thin enamel insulation, but that would probably be going too far. Three questions...
1. How do I keep the wires "stacked" as I twist them? Does it really matter as long as all four get twisted together?
2. How many twists per foot? (I won't pull your leg about whether the twists are clockwise or counterclockwise).
3. Would not three pairs be as good or better than 2 pairs? I might do this if I can't get #14 wire.
I disagree with audioengr about difficulty of making measurements across bridged amps. Been there, done that. Also, the greater voltage drop in a wimpy power cord does not translate into degraded sound provided that the power supply is robust. As Iasi notes, most power amps play on for several seconds even if you pull the plug completely. I shifted the focus of my investigation from the DC power to the amplifier output signal in answer to those who claim to hear things that can't be measured. The amp output is as close to the sound as we can get without subjective judgements about subtle effects (if any).
As to power cord effect on a CD player...I can try that too. Frankly a CD player draws so little current at such a uniform level that it's even harder to see how a power cord could have an effect. If the display was dim with the old cord it really must have been defective. But then again, this is French engineering. Did you ever work on a Renault?
Regarding Kenwood LO7M...I thought that the LO9M was the lower power unit. The TAS and Stereophile reviews that I recall were before those mags took advertising, and the reviews were credible. My personal review is that these amps, within their 150 watt (8 ohm) power rating, sound darned good.
well, in my system power cords certainle made a difference on my CD player, but none whatsoever on the power amp...i went by trusting my ears...the CD player made in France had some problems with the stock power cord (including a dim display)...after replacing the power cord, the CD layer seems to be just fine and the display is nice and bright...now, on the amp was a different story...i couldn't detect any change in the sound at all...i even tried a test with some of my friends...we took turns to replace the power cord on the fly while the music was playing...you can do that safely if your amp (has to be SS not tubes!!!!) has a good power supply...we had the stock power cord and another one that costs $500/6 ft...someone was switching back and forth between the two while the music was playing and we couldn't detect any change in sound...what was even more surprising was that the amp played just fine for 4-5 seconds even without power cord...was running from its own capacitors without a change in the sound...well, that was pretty conclusive for me that the power cord have absolutely no influence on audio gear that has a well designed power supply... again, just a personal experience...
Following Audioengr's comments, especially since i know what he's getting at, i would suggest a cable of very low inductance against a "typical" zip style power cord of adequate gauge. Using the "crummy" stock cord as a reference should work fine since the manufacturer thought that it would more than suffice at the time of design / sale. The engineers there obviously took into account such things as current draw and thought that it should be "plenty good enough". At least, according to theory.
If the "fancy" cord was of a high capacitance nature, all the better ( in my book ). The directions on how to make a very basic cord that offers good performance and is suitable for this specific installation is what follows. It should by no means considered my idea of "the ultimate" power cord or a power cord with universal application. It is however, a good starting point for someone that wants a good cord for pennies on the dollar : )
If using this for an amp, look for a cable that uses four 16 gauge ( at least ) or preferably four 14 gauge individually insulated conductors. These should be arranged with two conductors stacked on top of the other two. Since your amp does not use a "ground" per se, this should be easy for you to work with since you don't need to add an extra wire for an external ground.
The internal wiring should use staggered polarities as we go around in a circle i.e. hot, neutral, hot, neutral. Not only should the polarities be staggered to reduce inductance, lower EM radiation, reduce the susceptability of RFI, etc.., all four conductors should have a spiral twist to them. This rotates the wires within the main jacket so as to never have them running in a straight line. Hence, we end up with what is called a "spiral wrapped star quad" arrangement.
While looking for a cord of this nature, i would see if i could find one that used as little dielectric insulation material between conductors as possible. Obvously, you have to take into consideration safety factors in terms of rated voltage and current and remembering that the cord itself will be bending / flexing, but finding a suitable candidate should not be tough. Once you've found such a design, terminate it with good quality connectors and have at it.
As to my comments about the Kenwood L-O7M's, the "review" that i have on their bigger brother ( L-09M ) was not very complimentary at all. Then again, these amps probably "measure" quite well as far as "standard test procedures" go. Given the similarities between the two models of similar design and vintage and the more reliable than TAS or Stereophile ( at least as far as i'm concerned ) comments that i read, that is what i based my comments on. None the less, am amp is an amp and the results will speak for themselves.
One other thing though. You will need to be able to feed the amps a mono signal. Then again, i'm sure that you knew that : ) Sean >
PS... we all know that it is the sound that counts. By properly conducting tests and applying the knowledge derived from those tests, we can work towards making more consistent and reliable products that DO sound better. In the past, coming up with the right tests has been the problem, but we are slowly learning more and more as we do more testing. As such, scientific testing CAN be a means to an end if applied in that manner OR it can help to explain how we arrived at the end when broken down and reverse engineered.
You may not be able to measure what you hear. Depends on the noise floor of your sampling oscilloscope. You MUST use differential probing technique for this to avoid ground-loop noise as well. This is not a trivial measurement.
You would be better off to measure the voltage drop (scope capture) across the power cord when transient music passages are being played. IF two cords have different voltages, this means that more current is getting to the amp with one than the other. If the cords didn't matter, then the currents should be identical.
TWL wrote: "I'm currently using a large capacity lead acid automotive battery with 650 cold cranking amps, located about 24 inches from my amplifier. I have the terminals directly connected to the power input barrier strip on the amp, with 12ga OFC copper stranded wire."
24 inches of ANY wire represents a large inductive impedance. You need what is referred to as "decoupling caps", which essentially decouple the power source from the load by providing local energy storage. This means low ESR (equivalent series resistance) capacitors located as close as possible to the load. And a combination of HF caps (.01 UFd to .1 UFd) and some swamping caps (1 UFd to 100 Ufd) are needed to supply current at a broad frequency of transient currents. It would not hurt to have even a 1000Ufd close-by as well.
1. About the A/D. Of course I meant 100K samples/second.
2. The amp load will be Magnepan MG1.6 speakers, 4ohms ,and with impedance characteristics like a dummy load. (Of course I will listen, but that is not part of my test plan).
3. The input signal will be real music, of various spectral characteristics. I find that real music works best for most things like setting speaker levels, and subwoofer gain and phase.
4. I thought that my initial setup measurements using two super cords provided the reference for comparison. Of course I could do it with the original cords as well.
5. Some of you guys didn't understand the objective of my test. I am not (at this time) evaluating audio quality. I am testing to see if the electrical signal applied to the speaker changes in any way when the power cord is replaced. If it does, then listening tests would be in order. (And I will apoligize to all those I have offended). Viridian..I agree with you about listening being the best test of sonic quality, but I just don't want to fool myself, which is easy to do. If there is no change, listening tests might be fun but can prove nothing). My speakers only "know" about what comes in to them as an electrical signal from the power amp. Maybe your speakers have psychic powers and can discern the type of power cord in use. That's too far out for me.
6. By the way, when I said that the original power cords were "crummy" I really meant it. They don't even have a 3prong (grounded) plug...but maybe that was by design. I will need to try the super cord with and without ground.
7. The Kenwood LO7Ms may be old, but they were top rated by T.A.S and Stereophile. They are comparable to the best available today. (Besides they are what I have on hand. If you have Krells, or the like, feel free to use my procedure).
8. One procedural detail...I will make the electrical hookup such that I can switch cords without shutting down power, or interrupting the signal measurement process.
9. Hey this could be a money-maker! If I find a power cord effect I can sell the data to power cord manufacturers. If not, they can pay me to keep it under wraps.
10. Finally...(for now)...how about some suggestions about the design of the super power cord(s).
My question would be that after performing a test like described above, and having the possible result of no measurable difference, but they still sound different, what do you do then? Do you conclude that the testing methods are flawed, or that your hearing perception is flawed? This is what this subject really comes down to, isn't it?
My position is that if you want to spend the evening running test signals through your power cords into an analyzer, pick the one that measures best. If you want to spend the evening listening to music, pick the one that sounds the best. I really think that this simple approach is the best one.
When performing this test, are you driving speakers or dummy loads ? If you are using speakers and performing the tests simultaneously, my guess is that the speakers would have to be phenomenally well matched in order to do this. So well matched that i don't think it could be achieved without great time and expense.
As far as using dummy loads go, they will not "modulate" the power supplies like the signal being fed into a speaker would. Nor would they provide the reactance necessarily to simulate the actual conditions that the output stage has to deal with during normal use.
I would like to know what you intend to use as a test signal, the amplitude of signal that you intend to drive the amplifier up to and if the amps will be connected to the same identical unfiltered power source ?
I bring all of this up as these specific amps are very load sensitive ( vary their frequency response / output characteristics as impedance is changed ) and their distortion characteristics vary drastically as frequency rises. As such, using some type of wideband or sweeping tone that is varied in amplitude with a reactive dynamic load attached should REALLY produce some interesting results. I would LOVE to have some computer assisted test equipment that was capable of performing such a test. This is the kind of testing that could REALLY advance the SOTA of audio gear. That is, if one knew how to interpret the data provided and manipulate the circuitry to correct for the flaws detected.
If you are talking about doing a "null test" where equal but opposite signals are fed into each amp and calibrated to produce a "zero beat", you would have to do a baseline run with "stock" cords first and then with one of the cords replaced or modified. I'm sure that BOTH tests ( stock and modified cords ) would provide very sufficient "nulling" ( at least -60 dB ) for the scientist in you. The question is, if there are measurable differences in "nulling", would the differences be audible on a finely tuned system with a good "listener" at the helm ???
If you really want to do this correctly, you'll have to perform a baseline on the amplifier prior to cord modification and then afterwards. That is, unless the two amps measure and respond to signals in identical manner. They would need to do this regardless of load, frequency or amplitude of signal. Relying on two "similarly constructed" mass produced amplifiers of antique vintage to provide identical levels of lab grade reproduction would be asking a bit much in my book. Sean >
Sean...OK, here is a test that will be easy to do.
1. Get 2 monoblock power amps (I have a pair of Kenwood LO7Ms which should suffice).
2. Get 2 "super" power cords. (The Kenwoods will need modification to use them. The original cords are, I admit, crummy. Strange for such a well made piece of equipment. (Maybe they properly designed the power supply!)
3. Using the super cords, play the same music signal into both amplifiers. Adjust gain so as to minimize the voltage difference between the HI outputs of the two amps. If everything was perfect this voltage would be zero.
4. Record the voltage. If possible I will use a 100sps bench type precision A/D. With this type of data I can make plots and even perform Fourier analysis of the signal.
5. Now, replace one power cord with a "crummy" one.
6. Repeat the test procedure.
If the differential signal is the same as before, the "crummy" power cord has no effect. Note that while this test procedure does not involve subjective evaluation of sound, it does examine the amplifier audio output that drives the speaker, which is closer to a listening test than measurements of power supply voltages.
Now...what should I use as the "super" power cord. Please suggest wire type and configuration(s). Any other comments/suggestions are welcome.
Sean, I'm currently using a large capacity lead acid automotive battery with 650 cold cranking amps, located about 24 inches from my amplifier. I have the terminals directly connected to the power input barrier strip on the amp, with 12ga OFC copper stranded wire.
I have not tried any capacitors on the power connections as of yet, but the idea has crossed my mind. I was thinking that since my amp only draws 3.1 amps @ 12vdc at rated power, I figured that the 650 cold cranking amp capacity of the battery could handle that. From my listening observations, this amp really has some balls in the bottom end and dynamics, even though that may sound comical with only a 2 watt SET 45 amp. But it really is true. This amp has alot of punch, and it makes those Lowthers stand right up and get with it.
Another thing that I have done, is to use a separate battery for each of my components, so that there is no modulation of the power supply of one component by the draws of the other. This seems to make a difference. Individual power supplies take the idea of "dedicated AC lines" further into the isolation of each components power supply totally from the others. I like the effect of it. It's clean.
I'm still working on doing whatever I can think of to ensure the cleanest, unencumbered power to my components as I can possibly do. I think that the flat DC, with no intermodulation between components, full isolation, and high current availability has improved my sound.
Twl: As Audioengr mentioned, some batteries will be better for this than others. As a side note, this is the reason why some car stereo enthusiasts employ LARGE filter caps very near their amps. The caps themselves can discharge and supply power faster than the battery sitting very near it can. This is due to differences in the internal resistance of the devices themselves. While some caps may be worse than some batteries, caution must be used when selecting such a cap. Very careful selection of batteries and placing them very near the device drawing the current may negate the need for any support components such as caps, etc..
I'm curious as to whether or not you've ever tried anything like this ? The main things that i'd look for if you did was greater bass impact with greater punch / clarity on peaks. Sean >
Eldartford: Many of your suggestions are valid and are exactly what should be done by those designing / building the gear to begin with. As such, i would have to say that we are probably on the same page / line of thinking, but our actual experiences differ.
Besides that, the ESR of some capacitors at 20 KHz will be MUCH higher than you think it is. Regardless, the ESR doesn't really matter to RFI since the caps are in parallel with the power supply and the RFI can "ride right over the top" of them. You acknowledge this in your post when you mention digital gear "pumping signal" back into the AC lines. After all, such a signal would have had to have either been radiating into all of the circuitry in the box and using the power cord as a feedline OR the circuitry was actually modulating the power supply and feeding signal back into the AC system. Both are distinct possibilities and realities and i think that you know this. That's why i want YOU to experiment on your own and see for yourself just how "under-designed" most of this "high end" gear really is.
Theory aside, your first hand experience will probably change your mind about things. I'm not saying that you will become a power cord convert, but that you may better understand why some people talk about actually hearing sonic differences. The approach that you mentioned i.e. better filtering and design of the power supply, is the right approach in my mind. Reducing the potential for RFI and other "pollution" entering the gear through the use of more technically advanced yet reasonably priced power cords can only help the situation though. Sean >
Fair enough, Twl. First of all, let me say that you are not under attack, and that I think you should be free to decide on whatever products you want to buy based on whatever comparisons you choose to make.
Second, let's be clear about what science is, and is not. No one claims it to be the final truth. It is no more than the best explanation for something, based on everything we know to date.
Third, there are a number of different sciences at play here. Yes there's electrical engineering, and the physics that underlies it. There's also biology (since part of your "system" is your ears) and experimental psychology, which is also a science and operates under the same empirical rules as physics.
I don't know enough EE to say for certain that power cords can never affect the sound. I suspect, but cannot prove, that when they do, there is probably something wrong somewhere else in the system, since it's not terribly difficult or expensive to build a power supply that can handle the normal quirks of residential electric service.
No one claims that, "If we can't measure it, it must be your imagination." But the tendency of people to hear differences between things which are demonstrably identical is a scientifically validated phenomenon. So if you compare two power cords (without the kinds of scientific controls that those who study human hearing use) and conclude that they sound different, the best you can say scientifically is that there MIGHT be an electrical reason, or you MIGHT be falling victim to this "placebo effect."
Of course, the more plausible the electrical explanation you have for something, the less likely it's the placebo effect. The lack of a good electrical explanation (absent, say, some known problem with a power supply) is what leads some of us to suspect that the placebo effect is at work here.
Finally, let me say that "falling victim to the placebo effect" is not a bad thing. It's normal, and no one is immune. (Including me. I once witnessed a demonstration of the infamous green pen effect, and damned if I didn't hear a difference. But under the circumstances in which I heard it, the placebo effect--or a judicious nudge of the volume knob by the salesman who was doing the demonstration--was the most plausible explanation.)
I don't expect you to agree with everything I've written here, so I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I hope I've made it a little clearer where I and some others are coming from, and maybe that'll help keep the sniping to a minimum, which is something we can all agree on.
Bomarc, I have no problem with science explaining things. I like that. What I repeatedly hear, though, is that either there is no scientific reason for cables sounding different, or that we are all imagining it, or both. If there is some other scientific reason that you are alluding to, I am all ears. I have no quarrel with anyone who can show that there is some difference in inductance or capacitance or whatever, and if that is verifiable and useful, then I am all for it. I only say that I hear differences and am willing to use the product that sounds best to me. If I can gain information that will help me to make decisions in bettering my system, I will welcome that. However, I do feel frustrated, as you seem to be. I am frequently under attack for believing something that I can hear making an improvement in my system. Personally, I really don't care if there is some kind of magic dust in there or something. All I care about is that it makes my system sound better. To me, technology is a means to an end, and not an end unto itself. I don't make cables, I listen to them in my system. The details can be up to the manufacturers. What I want is a good sounding system. And whatever it takes to do that, is what I want.
While we frequently disagree on this subject on this forum, I have no quarrel with you personally. I would like to reach some kind of common ground that we could agree on, and maybe that would yield some good. I have a very simple goal, and that is a good sounding system. I assembled a variety of things that sounded good to me, and that is what counted for me. If technical-type people want to boil all the nuts and bolts down to some kind of essence that will help us all understand and decide, that's great. The only part that irritates me is the part where people tell me I can't hear something that I clearly hear, and claim that some "fact" means that I can't be hearing it. If I am misunderstanding your position, then I apologize. It is also frustrating to be on this side, and commonly be told that I am in some sort of "delusion world".
But Twl, what about the cases where science CAN explain things, but audiophiles refuse to acknowledge that an explanation exists? I'm alternately amused and offended by people who want to lecture me about what science SHOULD do, while refusing to accept what it has already done.
Batteries, like AC power sources have impedance. Some batteries will have lower internal impedance than others. Some will work well during transient current demands and others will not work as well to provide the transient current. There is no surprise here.
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