El: I'd be curious as to the specific capacitive and inductive measurements that you get with such a cable. Is it possible to either post these specs or forward them to me via email if you have the means to do so ? Sean
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Showing 24 responses by sean
To the "unbelievers", please read and respond to the thread entitled "Philips SACD 1000 / power cords in general accordingly. Prior to doing so, please be aware that i too was an "unbeliever" up until about 5 years ago. In fact, i was involved in a thread that "debated" the effects of AC cords that had 60+ responses in less than 4 hours time. Most of those responses were between a small group of individuals on both sides of the fence. My position was similar to those promoted by Eldartsford, Bomarc, Pbb, etc... i.e. i was under the impression that a power cord could NOT alter the sonics of a component. That was until i tried various power cords on different components and did hear a difference. As such, all of my previous posts were done in haste as i had relied on "common sense" and my prior level of education on the subject rather than first hand experience and trusting one's own senses. As discussed in the thread that i linked to, i was able to measure a difference in frequency response / apparent sonics when changing power cords. Granted, this was an "impromptu" test that wasn't performed under lab grade conditions, but the conditions that were present were as close to identical for both DUT's ( Device Under Test ) that could be achieved at the time. As such, any errors that were in place for one cord were also present for the other and would cancel each other out in the end readings. While i can't explain the differences in perceived sonics and measured frequency response abberations in "techno-speak", i do know what i heard and i do know what the test instruments confirmed. How susceptible or noticeable other designs / systems are to such changes, i don't know. Sean > PS... I wish you folks could see one of the highly intellectual T-shirts that i wear. It says "I used to have an open mind, but my brain kept falling out" : ) |
Viridian: As i've mentioned before, i do think a lot of what we hear can be collaborated with specs. That is, to a certain extent and taking into account that the specs and testing were done in proper fashion. Obviously, spec's can be made to lie and / or be presented in a manner that is less than completely telling. Being able to decipher and interpret which specs are most important and "telling" of how a component might perform is no different than the clues or "evidence" that a well trained detective has to decipher in order to put the pieces of a crime together. As we have all seen, a good "investigator" can crack cases whereas a less skilled "investigator" could look at the very same "clues" and come up with a different interpretation of events and / or have nothing to go on at all. While it is true that a lot of what the "super snooper" comes up with is based on "educated guesswork" and requires "logical deductions", it is sometimes spooky what one can conclude by looking at the spec's / test results and corraborating this with what one actually hears. Having an idea of what all those charts / graphs mean is a good starting point, as you can't interpret what you can't understand. After all, if test results meant absolutely nothing, we would not have been able to refine products / designs to the point that we have today. Good luck trying to make something better when all you have is guesswork to go on without some way to measure / substantiate the various changes made along the way. Sean > |
Eldartford: Many of your suggestions are valid and are exactly what should be done by those designing / building the gear to begin with. As such, i would have to say that we are probably on the same page / line of thinking, but our actual experiences differ. Besides that, the ESR of some capacitors at 20 KHz will be MUCH higher than you think it is. Regardless, the ESR doesn't really matter to RFI since the caps are in parallel with the power supply and the RFI can "ride right over the top" of them. You acknowledge this in your post when you mention digital gear "pumping signal" back into the AC lines. After all, such a signal would have had to have either been radiating into all of the circuitry in the box and using the power cord as a feedline OR the circuitry was actually modulating the power supply and feeding signal back into the AC system. Both are distinct possibilities and realities and i think that you know this. That's why i want YOU to experiment on your own and see for yourself just how "under-designed" most of this "high end" gear really is. Theory aside, your first hand experience will probably change your mind about things. I'm not saying that you will become a power cord convert, but that you may better understand why some people talk about actually hearing sonic differences. The approach that you mentioned i.e. better filtering and design of the power supply, is the right approach in my mind. Reducing the potential for RFI and other "pollution" entering the gear through the use of more technically advanced yet reasonably priced power cords can only help the situation though. Sean > |
Twl: As Audioengr mentioned, some batteries will be better for this than others. As a side note, this is the reason why some car stereo enthusiasts employ LARGE filter caps very near their amps. The caps themselves can discharge and supply power faster than the battery sitting very near it can. This is due to differences in the internal resistance of the devices themselves. While some caps may be worse than some batteries, caution must be used when selecting such a cap. Very careful selection of batteries and placing them very near the device drawing the current may negate the need for any support components such as caps, etc.. I'm curious as to whether or not you've ever tried anything like this ? The main things that i'd look for if you did was greater bass impact with greater punch / clarity on peaks. Sean > |
When performing this test, are you driving speakers or dummy loads ? If you are using speakers and performing the tests simultaneously, my guess is that the speakers would have to be phenomenally well matched in order to do this. So well matched that i don't think it could be achieved without great time and expense. As far as using dummy loads go, they will not "modulate" the power supplies like the signal being fed into a speaker would. Nor would they provide the reactance necessarily to simulate the actual conditions that the output stage has to deal with during normal use. I would like to know what you intend to use as a test signal, the amplitude of signal that you intend to drive the amplifier up to and if the amps will be connected to the same identical unfiltered power source ? I bring all of this up as these specific amps are very load sensitive ( vary their frequency response / output characteristics as impedance is changed ) and their distortion characteristics vary drastically as frequency rises. As such, using some type of wideband or sweeping tone that is varied in amplitude with a reactive dynamic load attached should REALLY produce some interesting results. I would LOVE to have some computer assisted test equipment that was capable of performing such a test. This is the kind of testing that could REALLY advance the SOTA of audio gear. That is, if one knew how to interpret the data provided and manipulate the circuitry to correct for the flaws detected. If you are talking about doing a "null test" where equal but opposite signals are fed into each amp and calibrated to produce a "zero beat", you would have to do a baseline run with "stock" cords first and then with one of the cords replaced or modified. I'm sure that BOTH tests ( stock and modified cords ) would provide very sufficient "nulling" ( at least -60 dB ) for the scientist in you. The question is, if there are measurable differences in "nulling", would the differences be audible on a finely tuned system with a good "listener" at the helm ??? If you really want to do this correctly, you'll have to perform a baseline on the amplifier prior to cord modification and then afterwards. That is, unless the two amps measure and respond to signals in identical manner. They would need to do this regardless of load, frequency or amplitude of signal. Relying on two "similarly constructed" mass produced amplifiers of antique vintage to provide identical levels of lab grade reproduction would be asking a bit much in my book. Sean > |
Following Audioengr's comments, especially since i know what he's getting at, i would suggest a cable of very low inductance against a "typical" zip style power cord of adequate gauge. Using the "crummy" stock cord as a reference should work fine since the manufacturer thought that it would more than suffice at the time of design / sale. The engineers there obviously took into account such things as current draw and thought that it should be "plenty good enough". At least, according to theory. If the "fancy" cord was of a high capacitance nature, all the better ( in my book ). The directions on how to make a very basic cord that offers good performance and is suitable for this specific installation is what follows. It should by no means considered my idea of "the ultimate" power cord or a power cord with universal application. It is however, a good starting point for someone that wants a good cord for pennies on the dollar : ) If using this for an amp, look for a cable that uses four 16 gauge ( at least ) or preferably four 14 gauge individually insulated conductors. These should be arranged with two conductors stacked on top of the other two. Since your amp does not use a "ground" per se, this should be easy for you to work with since you don't need to add an extra wire for an external ground. The internal wiring should use staggered polarities as we go around in a circle i.e. hot, neutral, hot, neutral. Not only should the polarities be staggered to reduce inductance, lower EM radiation, reduce the susceptability of RFI, etc.., all four conductors should have a spiral twist to them. This rotates the wires within the main jacket so as to never have them running in a straight line. Hence, we end up with what is called a "spiral wrapped star quad" arrangement. While looking for a cord of this nature, i would see if i could find one that used as little dielectric insulation material between conductors as possible. Obvously, you have to take into consideration safety factors in terms of rated voltage and current and remembering that the cord itself will be bending / flexing, but finding a suitable candidate should not be tough. Once you've found such a design, terminate it with good quality connectors and have at it. As to my comments about the Kenwood L-O7M's, the "review" that i have on their bigger brother ( L-09M ) was not very complimentary at all. Then again, these amps probably "measure" quite well as far as "standard test procedures" go. Given the similarities between the two models of similar design and vintage and the more reliable than TAS or Stereophile ( at least as far as i'm concerned ) comments that i read, that is what i based my comments on. None the less, am amp is an amp and the results will speak for themselves. One other thing though. You will need to be able to feed the amps a mono signal. Then again, i'm sure that you knew that : ) Sean > PS... we all know that it is the sound that counts. By properly conducting tests and applying the knowledge derived from those tests, we can work towards making more consistent and reliable products that DO sound better. In the past, coming up with the right tests has been the problem, but we are slowly learning more and more as we do more testing. As such, scientific testing CAN be a means to an end if applied in that manner OR it can help to explain how we arrived at the end when broken down and reverse engineered. |
Eldartford: Forget about buying parts, doing the assembly, twisting the wires, etc... There are PLENTY of mass produced cables like this on the market that you can buy for a few bucks. Hbarrel: Glad to hear that you've got good power where you are at. You must be one of the few in the country. My business is located in a small rural town. Until i called the local electric company and kept raising hell with them, i was experiencing severe voltage sag, massive amounts of distortion, etc... While the AC was never "good", it had continued to get worse and had finally reached a point that i was beginning to have major problems. Since i have test equipment hooked up and pay attention to the AC and how the equipment runs, i was the first to notice the problems in the area. When i talked to the other tenants in the building, they said that they were not having any noticeable problems. Within a week, several computers went belly-up in other businesses and other problems started developing. After a half dozen more phone calls to the power company from me and other tenants beginning to call, the utility company came out and re-examined the system again. As it turns out, the pole transformer was VERY old and was not up to spec. That probably explained the voltage swings from 118 volts down to 104 - 106 in the middle of the day. Once they changed the transformer, voltage hovers at about 120 - 122 and is rock solid. There is still distortion of the 59.9 Hz sine wave, but it is FAR superior to what i was getting before. At my house, which is inside of a highly populated City, my voltage stays pretty steady at about 123 volts. If it is REALLY hot out in the summer with every air conditioner in the city turned on, i'm down to about 118 volts or so. Regardless of the fact that we have a steady supply of power, the 59.9 Hz sine wave is always distorted. While this does clean up quite noticeably at appr 1 - 2 AM, it is still not as clean as one would think. For the record Hbarrel, you should try looking at your AC line with a spectrum analyzer. I'm near certain it isn't as "clean" as you think it is. As to your comments about AC cords, i've already stated that much of what these filters / line conditioners / power cords are doing is nothing more than band-aiding poorly designed gear. Nothing more, nothing less. Sean > |
Due to the design of the Innersound amp, which is somewhat similar to the older Threshold's in terms of design theory for the active circuitry but not power supply, the amps will go into oscillation and self-destruct if you use a high capacitance speaker cable with them. That is, if you don't use Impedance Compensation networks with the high capacitance speaker cables. Roger does not like very high capacitance speaker cables and, from what i've been told, thinks that they are an "abomination" of some sorts. I've also been told that running very high capacitance speaker cables ( like Goertz ) with the Innersound amps will void your warranty. Sean > |
S23chang: The longer the run, the more series resistance. The longer the run, the greater the voltage drop. As such, heavier wire will never hurt you ( other than the pocketbook ) and can only help. You have to remember that some people may have runs in their house that are 100 foot long or longer. To top it off, some product do pull way more than 6 amps of current, i.e. high bias power amps of good size. Couple these with low impedance speakers that are low efficiency and you've got an instant "power sucker" all ready to go. There are amps on the market that can drink everything that a 15 or 20 amp circuit can deliver when being pushed hard. Besides that, building for "worst case scenario" right now covers you for any changes made in the future. The difference in cost right now would be nothing compared to what it would cost to re-string new, heavier gauge wire at a later date. 14 gauge should be fine for any line level components. I would recommend at least 12 and preferably 10 gauge for an amp. Really big amps may benefit from 8 gauge, especially if you have a long run. If running everything from one dedicated line, use the heaviest gauge feasible. Sean > |
Audioengr: I was trying to work through a problem with someone that had Innersound speakers. During the height of their problems, they called up and spoke to Roger. In passing, they mentioned that they were using Goertz speaker cables. At this point, Roger just about came unglued and went on a rampage about high capacitance cables and stated that using such products would void the warranty on their power amps. As one might realize, his amps are built by Coda for him. Some of the folks designing Coda gear also helped in the design of older Threshold products. Since Threshold products are sensitive to high capacitance cables, it would only make sense that the same designers might end up with similar results on the Coda product line. Having said that, i've not had any problems running Goertz cables with ANY amp. This includes, but is not limited to, Threshold products. That is, so long as the proper precautions ( Zobel Network ) are taken. Those that disregard these speaker cables out of fear or ignorance are missing some very good yet "reasonably priced" cables in my opinion. That is, if one likes their system and recordings to sound like music rather than processed data. As a side note, i just installed a set of Goertz MI-2 Veracity cables in my Father's system yesterday. These replaced some Audioquest's that i had previously brought over for him a while back. In his own words, "My system has NEVER sounded this good". I would have to agree. There is now a far more "liquid" and "natural" presentation to the sound that i haven't found with any other cable. Sean > |
Hahaha... as i've said before, it's too bad we can't get people together and "talk shop" without being afraid of losing what they consider "proprietary knowledge". While everybody has their "trade secrets", and i'm sure that some of these are quite ingenious, i don't think that any individual / group of individuals has ALL the answers. That's why it is great to be able to pick and choose the best ideas of the lot and incorporate them into your own DIY designs : ) Sean > |
Corona: Are you involved with the marketing, design, production, sales, etc.. of any type of audio based product ? Given the fiasco that came of the ART amplifier thread, we might as well get this type of thing out in the open right away when someone starts making BIG claims about a product. If you have no vested financial interest in this product, and it is already being demo'd to various individuals and / or groups, how about sharing the make / model of this product with us ? We are all on the hook, now start reelin' us in : ) Sean > |
Eldartford: I think that you should pick up a set from one of the dealers that Corona mentioned on a 15 - 30 day trial basis and use these "super cables" as a comparison against your stock cables. Using an FFT to analyze these cables will leave NO room for excuse should they not do exactly what Corona states. Sean > |
Corona: As i previously stated, if this product is already for sale, people are ordering it, etc... WHY can't you provide at least a link to information on this product or materials that go into making this product ? Even if it only contains generic info that one would find in a "sales brochure", that would be better than the "NOTHING" that you have provided thus far. Sean > PS... We have had "wires" that have been called "superconductors" around for a relatively long period of time. These "wires" offer far lower resistance than any of those commonly used and do not require low temperatures for increased conductivity. While they may not be of the same levels being discussed here, they are MUCH better than anything that we are using for audio purposes. Problem is, these wires are PHENOMENALLY expensive per foot, are stiff as hell and require a very large bend radius. If someone were using wires like this as a base conductor for audio cables, i might be able to justify the "mega dollar" expenses involved in some of these "Salon" type cables. |
When you said "stacked", this made me think of three pieces of zip cord standing side by side in a row i.e. "hot / hot / hot" stacked on top of "neutral / neutral / neutral" and then twisted. By staggering the conductors, i meant exactly what you ended up doing, i.e. alternating polarity for every other wire. That should work fine from what i can tell. My only thoughts are "good luck" in getting all of these properly terminated into a connector : ) Sean > |
Corona: While reducing the surface area where the connections mate will reduce the total current capacity of the cable, the blades that go into the wall and the IEC will melt before the "limited" current capacity of Eldartford's method comes into play. Yes, doing so will alter the impedance of the cable, but not enough to negate the benefits that he sought to achieve via distributed capacitance. By the way, when are you going to support your claims / comments with some hard information pertaining to makes & models ? We are still waiting.... Audioengr: Hope you had a good time at the show and was / will be profitable for you. I don't know what to tell you about Mr Sander's reaction to this specific brand of cables. I'm simply going by the information that was passed onto me by a very reliable source. As far as the Goertz cables go, i assume that you're talking about their speaker cables given the reference to low inductance being beneficial. As you are probably well aware, i'm pretty fond of these as a general rule. Minimal skin effect ( they are ALL "skin" ), minimal dielectric ( new models use Teflon ) for reduced DA ( Dielectric Absorption ), heavy gauge for low series resistance, low nominal impedance for maximum power transfer, wide bandwidth, etc... If people don't like how these speaker cables sound in their system, they need to look at why the system doesn't sound good, not blame the cables !!! As far as ways to improve these cables, all they need to do is get some decent connectors on these things. Other than their Silver spades, their standard spades, bananas and pin connectors are junk !!! If you are still running the JC-1's and can get away with a four feet of speaker cable, i can send you some MI-3's ( 7 gauge / nominal impedance of 2 ohms ) to check out. I had these running from my Kinergetics KBA-202A Platinum Mono-Block's to my Ohm F's. Since i'm not using the mono's right now, you're more than welcome to give them a try. Sean > |
Eldartford: I don't know of any manufacturer that publishes specific spec's on power cords. That does not mean that some of us haven't taken the time to take readings on various cables / designs and compiled our own little notebooks. Some of us do feel that there is a method to the madness and the more knowledge / hard facts that we can accumulate on the subject, the less "eye of newt" and "snake oil" you'll need to build a good cable. As such, knowing how your cable measures in terms of absolute values and measurements per foot can give us "techies" a better idea of what you are working with. Corona: Like i said before, if people are already buying this product, how do you intend to keep the basic design principles / materials secret ? I'm not asking you for a play by play, i'm simply asking for you to verify that such products do exist so that those that are interested can check into purchasing them. If this truly is a "ground-breaking" product and as good as you say it is, why would you want to deny yourself the opportunity to advertise in what is a highly read forum / thread ? On top of this, i'm asking you for info. As such, you won't hear anybody claiming that you're out "shilling for business". As far as i can tell, it would be a win / win situation for you in terms of exposure and potential sales. As far as your comments go about finding correlations between design geometries, materials used, etc..., i agree with you. Not in the fact that you can't find any correlations between measurable performance & percieved sonics but in the fact that publishing specific technical info would end up demystifying power cords and lower the potential to rip customers off in terms of them finding out just how much "research" and material actually went into building their "beloved" mega-dollar cables. I don't know of any "magician" / "side show charlatan" that is making tall cash "scamming" people that would be willing to give away their secrets to the public for free. After all, once that secret is out and others can figure out how to do it, the novelty and exclusivity have worn off and the price and demand begin to fall. As such, silence IS golden. That is, so long as you can keep the secret. Sean > |