Phono stages belong to which tier?


I feel the phono stage is the most critical component in an analog system since it is an important part of the source. Which phono stages have you heard and in which tier would they fall in 1st 2nd or 3rd?
From reading the threads here: aesthetix, manley, lamm, fm acoustics, einstein would probably fall in the 1st.
Please include stages that have been listened to extensively and those that have been heard breifly.
pedrillo
I think it is fair to say that my opinion that no one item should be should be deemed less important than the other is uncommon and probably will fall into a minority group but i still maintain it. I can see how one component that is physically larger than another say for example a phonostage compared to a interconnect, the former having more parts and the cable being smaller, having less parts and by comparison therefore seems less significant but i think not. Yes, from a designer's perspective a phonostage will provide a greater challenge than a cable but nevertheless the cable, especially today, with what is at the disposal to the designer in terms of materials and advanced technology, the cable too, though a apparently simple part does impart a very important influence whether good, bad, medium in the web of parts in a playback system. (you could substitute what i just said for cables, "phonostages" or "speakers", this isnt a post about cables vs. phonostages etc, etc, but about all components interdependence and importance as a whole)

All analogies breakdown at some point but...consider these two components of a farrari race car. Its motor and its rubber tires. Which of these two components has more parts? which is more complicated and sophisticated to conceive of and execute? yet which is more important to reach 250km per hour? In terms of the goal (reaching a speed of 250km per hour) arent they both AS important and dont they both depend on each other? To answer my own questions, the motor has more parts and is more sophisticated to conceive of and design, the tires though seemingly simple need to be able to grip the highway and not disintegrate or blow at high speeds. So all the value of the _____(insert any "complicated" component here) Lets say "phonostage" is potentially wasted or possibly not fully realized because of how another component interfaces with it. I would venture to say that some will come on here and say, the cartridge, table, tonearm and phono is the most important, others will argue , no, the amp/speaker is more important than x or y and others, will say ,no, the room is THE most important thing but if you stop, clear your mind and take the time to think of my analogy i think you will see that even simple parts have essential and vital jobs to components that have difficult tasks and MIGHT be a choke, or "weak point" to allowing these more complicated components to perform to their potential. Again as i posted above in my previous post, getting an entire system, to pull together in perfect execution, unison and ideal performance is a cryptic task. You can have 5 digits right on a 6 digit combination lock but if the sixth digit is wrong it doesnt matter if the other five are right, the lock wont open. We as audiophiles dont know the combo so what do we do? we guesstimate and just keep spinning its dials, once in a while we get lucky and the lock pops open (we find a degree of synergy.)

Within the playback chain, ease of design, apparent simplicity/sparse parts of one component compared directly to another does not necessarily diminish influence, importance or relevance on the final sound. That is why i think all components are equally important.
Vertigo,
I partially agree.
I say that for a reason, here's an example, it wouldn't make sense to use a $150k turntable on a $1k speaker. Most of us here will make purchases in which all the components are in the same class. But let's say we have the priviledge of owning the best equipment out there, totalling $2 million or so hypothetically speaking. Each link of the audio chain coming from the finest makers. What if we experimented and were to remove one part at a time and replace it with a less regarded piece possibly costing less? When would we percieve the greatest difference? I would say with the speakers, but then it's relative, change the turntable and how big of a difference will be percieved?
Anyone have information about the new Parasound JC-3? For $2K it could be a nice unit.

Aesthetix io
Alaap MKII
Allnic h3000
ASR Exclusive
Atma-sphere mp-1
Audia Flight
Audio Reference 2
Dartzeel nhb-18ns
Essential 3160
Einstein Balanced
FM Acoustic
Klyne 7x 3.5
Lamm Lp2
Lyra 4.2p se
Manley Steelhead
Messenger
Nagra Vps
Tron Seven signature
TW Acustic
Wavestream Kinetics
Walker
Zanden 1200
John Curl is being John Curl, that's a positive, ringing out the best performance possible before he'll release it for production. It should good! You'll notice that his designs are SOTA but also remain that way for years without rev after rev. I'm really looking forward to getting one.
Gerry,
Are you still happy with the Wavestream phono stage?  I'm considering it as well as an ASR Basis.  How is the background noise level (tube rush, etc.) of the Wavestream?

Thanks in advance,
AC
Another Whest owner here. Whest makes ONLY phono stages.  I have a PS30RDT-Special Edition--absolutely dead quiet.  I bought a B-stock from the factory for less than  Ebe  quoted a  30rdt. Upgraded from a Moon 5.3.  No comparison--one thing I was after was tonal color/accuracy, which this has--the 5.3 is a good  'stage for the price, but tonal color discrimination on orchestral instruments lacking.The 30 series has been replaced by the 40 series. They make at least 6 models, the top of the line the $18k monoblocks.  Gain adjustable from 44 to 72 db.  I have a Soundsmith 'the Voice' which has 2.2 mV output--needs around 55db gain, many 'stages aren't that flexible.  Just not many dealers in US.  I agree with your statement of importance of phono stage--James told me I was overbuying in the SE, but I'll never have to upgrade again.
Good luck, and enjoy.
Dear All
some serious stages out-there I must say.
I have a Vendetta SCP2A (recapped and with quieter IC's) and just stopped testing stages after that.
I have heard the likes of Soulution, Constellation, FM, and Nagra (sadly not the Connoisseur) within systems, and as such it is all but impossible to isolate the component save to say that there must be a clear 'voicing' with the other components. I must say I loved the Constellation system and the FM Acoustics best.
I agree with the OP and genuinely believe that once you get to certain level of turntable it is in fact the phono stage that is the most important part of the vinyl replay chain due to the job it has.