Phono Stage upgrade to complement Dohmann Helix One Mk 2

Dear @drbond  : "  I've never heard music any better than with the Ypsilon amplifier and pre-amplifier.  Even with my "lowly" Manley Steelhead connected to they Ypsilons, "

Well that could be because you do not listened something really better, that's all and does not means Ypsilon is what you think i's. Even that now you could question the validity of my posts you can be sure that I know what I'm talking about and more important I know why I'm talking in that " dramatic " way. I only want to help and that you stop to spend money instead to invest in true high quality performance level audio items.

" I highly doubt the JC1+ would produce anything close to what I currently hear.  ", well one reason is that the JC have a way better design. @lohanimal  agree with all your post.

R.

Dear @drbond  : It's useless and even could be futile that you spend thousands of big dollars for a top phono stage as many of the named in the thread only for that excellent quality level coming from the phono stage been destroyed/ruined by your Ypsilon preamp truly poor quality levels against any of the phono stages named here.

If you are not willing to change youfr preamp then you have not worried really wich Phono stage is better because at the end what you will listen be the terrible Ypsilon and all those wires transformers that degrade the signal but it's not only that but its terrble frequency bandwindt and several other critical issues.

Then which your point or the other gentlemans ones?

My point is that you need at least the same quality levels/design in the line preamp than in the phono stage. Same for your amps where I gave you the advise to go for the JC1+ monoblocks that makes a in heaven mate with the Soundlabs.

R.

Dear @pani  : Mi advise to the OP was and is for the 223 that has 62db on gain and even can go higher if the customer needs and ask to FMA for it.

@mijostyn , you like the numbers and the FMA 223 beats the noise levl of the Channel L20 with its incredible: -137 dBu at full output ! !

At the FMA quality levels it has no single problem to compete and even could outperforms current mode units.

Anyway the 223 is only an OP option good enough as other posted alternatives.

R.

Dear @pani  : " But their new Gaku-Oh is totally a full frequency dynamic beast. The same is with GE10 phono. The only problem is people can't muster spending $60k on a MM only phonostage. ""

Just at the end of mt over 10 years audio tube stage my friend and Audio Note distributor gave me the opportunity to listen for 3 full weeks the Ongaku when I told him that I decided to go with all SS electronics and till today and even that I listened several other contemporary tube electronics just don't " come back to ".

I'm really way demanding as I know you are in the quality level performance of any room/system I been or be listen it. As I posted I'm not married with what " I like " but with how it : should be.

Thank's for your post.

R.

Dear @lewm  : " Keep in mind that Raul has a fanatical hatred for any component that uses a vacuum tube. His judgement is not objective.."

WRONG again. As you I was a tube love for 10+ years and the Ongaku that pani named was my last experience with because at that timwe and contrary of you I LEARNED and I know in OBJECTIVE terms that the worst place to have a tube electronic unit is a  phono stage .

"" Contrary to Raul’s insinuation, I never said or even meant to imply that the Manley Steelhead is the be all and end all of phono reproducers. But I think that my tweaked one is pretty good. ""

WRONG again+, that's only yur imagination I never posted that " insinuation " and your " pretty good " unit is because you still like to live in the " error ", fine with me. It's your problem, got it?: your problem not mine.

R.

Dear @drbond  : Obviously you can ask but take in count that the Manley design came from 2001 with no seriously changes where you can say: " nigth and day differences for the better ".

""  seem that most people are preferring the SS phono stages these days. . .""

and for very good reasons. I already told you that the worst place to put tubes is in a phono stage unit. Line stages or amps are different.

R.

Dear @lewm  " Manley used second rate capacitors as output coupling capacitors in the Steelhead, .."

I can see in the circuit boards MIT and Wima caps. Which are the ones second rate you are talking about?

"" which sometimes tends to make us forget that all of these devices are made of pretty much the same components: Wires, resistors, capacitors, etc. ..... Good circuit design is not the exclusive province of the ultra high priced segment. "

Do you really think in that way?  because if you did then you are totally wrong.

@drbond  your manley is a " so so " hybrid " design ( Jfet ) and nothing more. Even lewm choosed " mainly " ( that's what he posted in the thread. )because accepts more than one cartridge.

This is what MF that had the Manley as his reference phono stage standard posted a little latter on:

" With the ASR Basis Exclusive on Cisco's upcoming reissue of Ian and Sylvia's stunning Northern Journey (Vanguard/Cisco VSD 79154), the guitars, mandolin, and autoharp crackled with sparkling, transient-snapping excitement yet with plenty of body, while Ian's and Sylvia's voices had a you-are-there clarity and presence. Image definition was precise, three-dimensional, and well focused, while Russ Savakus' bass was taut, with plenty of wood behind the string plucks.

Switching back to my reference Manley Steelhead phono preamp presented a completely different take on the same music: a more mellow overall balance, softer transients, and greater emphasis on midbass warmth. This made for a smoother balance that was easier to listen to yet still had plenty of detail—but it couldn't match the ASR's sheer excitement, or its ability to resolve the lowest-level detail in stark relief, all without sounding bright, etched, or hyper-detailed.  .

I compared the Steelhead and the ASR with the classic Mercury Living Presence LP of Aaron Copland's Rodeo, El Salón México, and Danzón Cubano, recorded in 1957 (!) by Antal Dorati and the London Symphony (SR90172). I found the ASR's overall presentation in fully balanced mode airier, more transparent, deeper, wider, and more dynamic overall. The brass had a lifelike, piercing, yet plush realism that the more softly sprung Steelhead couldn't equal, and there was no match in the reproduction of the thwack of the timpani, which had far greater impact through the ASR.

It was an impressive presentation of a recording that, like many Mercurys, can sound thin and ungrounded. ""

Anyway, That ASR is out of production an was a SS design.

R.

Dear @drbond : I’m a MUSIC lover and normally I listen to classic and Jazz/Blues recordings. I don’t play any instrument and my prefered reacording instrument is piano but I listen everykind of classic scores and I like too some type of Opera scores too.

Now, time to time I listen old rock recordings of the .Presley and B.Haley times or disco Music recording from the 70’s-80’s that some of us danced in the discoteques of those times. Btw, these kind of disco music listened at average 95db SPL with peaks around 105db SPL is way demanding and a ytrue tests that only a few system can do it in the rigth way with out compresión or any kind of " colapse ".Several of these type of recordings ( that mainly came in single 33rpm or 45rpm from Italy, England and Germany. ) can sounds really agressive and way ( sometimes. ) strident in almost all system but the really good ones. As I said a " tourtuose " test for any room/system as is the Telarc 1812 at those SPL. No, I don't listen at that SPL. Normally I listen at around 82db at seat position, sometimes even lower.

In the last 30 years I attend every week to listen the seasons of different classic Orchestras and twice a week ( obviously not during Covid. ) to Jazz/Blues clubs and eventually to big events when comes groups as Eagles, Foreigner and the like.

Yes, I always try to be seated at near field position but in the big " rock " live concerts. We have to take care our valuable ears.

R.

Dear @drbond  : Whatever be your phono stage decision you have to think that with stand alone phono stage units as the FMA the next stage where the signal must goes is a line preamps and you need at least the same quality design levels for that signal been quality preserved.

In the other side and is only an opinion and knowing very well your speakers it's a must to change your amplifiers for those Soundlabs great speakers really shines as never before.

You don't need to buy a boutique amplifiers, my recomendation is to go for the JC1+ monobloks. I listened Soundlabs/JC1s and are outstanding mate and the JC1+ set you back almost ten times lower price that your today monoblocks:

https://parasound.com/jc1+.php

R.

Dear @pani : Never had the opportunity not even to see it. I know very well the Kondo design estrategy and japanese unique way of thinking and I know very well the Kondo silver caps.

Yes, for an all tube designs it’s not only very expensive but with excellent performance inside the tube limitations.

I was for almost 10 years a tube lover and have first hand experiences with almost all the best of the best tube electronics and I learned very carefully of its true limitations against the fully advanced designs in all solid state designs that is an almost not limited design alternative.

Look, it’s not fair for tube alternative to try and make comparisons against a way different electronics alternative that for me is a superior one and especially when we are talking of phonolinepreamps.

Everytime I make listening item comparisons, been analog or digital medium, I compare what the room/system gives against my several first hand experiences with live MUSIC seated at near field position ( that’s the way recording microphones are " seated ". ) and listening the same recording tracks that I know even how performs its click and pops.

I’m not married/biased with what I like but with what should be.

I respect other gentleman opinions and especially yours but we have different targets and due that I’m not a rich man I have to learn and learned by my self and with the advise of gentlemans with higher knowledge levels than me how with out all that money need it to be " there " I can be " there " modifiying, up-grading, building and fine tunning my room/system. As a fact from some time now I’m in the fine tunning stage.

R.

@mijostyn  : Directly from the Channel Dsite:

"" also feature low noise that ranks among or better than the world's finest phono stages. Here is a comparison of measurements performed by Stereophile (including issue dates for verification) of the signal to noise ratio (SNR) of moving coil phono preamplifiers, including our Seta Model L. Higher numbers are better. The quietest are highlighted in boldface.
 

The lewm imagination about RIAA is only that: imagination, he shows no facts but even if exist facts that it does not matters. Wwe audiophiles can have some kind of control of the playback recording proccess but no single kind of " control " of the whole overall recording proccess. So I must take care of what I can have control no matters what. Only lewm cares of what he has no single control at all. You agree with but I'm not. Period.

R.

@mijostyn  : Really? No, you are wrong. As almost always I don't post almost nothing the thread gentlemans/audiophiles can't corroborate.

The L20 weigthed S/N is 88db and you can see it in the chart where Channel D made a comparisons with older Boulder models.

The BM MCCI measured by JA STEHP figures are:

"" very quiet phono preamp: its unweighted wideband signal/noise ratio, measured with the input shorted and ref. 500µV at 1kHz, was 83.2dB in the left channel, 71.8dB in the right. A-weighting these ratios gave improvements to 99.9 and 103.3dB, respectively. Channel separation was equally superb, measuring >105dB at 20kHz. "

Way better.

As I said to you:  " I never heard that phono stage ( L 20 ) that you like to much and I think is a good contender.

R.

Dear @drbond  :  In the analog system chain I think that the phono stage perhaps is the hardest challenge for any designer/manufacturer because they have to deal with design special characterisitcs that at some time has a intrinsecal relations ship in between that is really complex to satisfy all them and the challenge is acomplish all those characteristics.

I already talked of the firs characteristic that's the inverse RIAA eq challenge the oner main phono stage characteristics are a design with high gain ( with some LOMC cartridges is need it around 80db. ) and at the same time with the third characteristic that's very low noise.

So the scenario is the worst one for all tube electronics, no one can fulfill the main phono stage targets to fulfill too the cartridge needs. No, SUT s can't do it due that are frequency bandwindth limited and develops too its own kind of " distortions ". I know that not only you but several audiophiles like the tube kind of didtortions/colorations but as with my RIAA explanation the issue is to stay truer to the recording that puts us a little near to the live MUSIC experiences. This is the target, try to mimic live MUSIC experiences, if this is not the main target of any one of you then follow doing what you did it all your life: " this is what I like it ". No problem at all.

So, the best phono stages must be SS active high gain/low noise designs. Till today no one all tube design fulfill the phono stage needs no matters what when exist some SS alternatives.

FMA and Boulder can do it even the Boulder little brother 1108. CH is an option too I listened one of its model designs and makes good job ( its top of the line goes for 90+K dollars. ).

IMHO first than all you have ( I think you already did it. with tubes.) to re-think your main system reproduction targets and go for the ones that fulfill it.

Btw, I listen the Nagra VPS in tube mode, not a unit that puts me near to the live experiences. I never had the opportunity to listen the Classic line but its measured characteristics are exactly the same as any tube phono stage:

FR: 20 Hz – 50 kHz     +0.6 dB    RIAA

Output impedance 500 ohms.

In this thread named the Audio Noote Kondo and the EMT. Both the same " history ". No one of this kind of unit designs really can honor true MUSIC. Yes, can " honor " what we like it that's a different issue.

@mijostyn  the humble BMC MCCI outperforms the Channel D at noise figures levels and its RIA deviation is beated by the FMA units and even the Boulder's. I never heard that phono stage that you like to much and I think is a good contender.

Good point from lewm, Dartzeel is other option.

No SUT's in the SS I named all high gain active designs.

R.

Dear @drbond  : " Thanks for the FM acoustic recommendation, but are there any other brands that you can also recommend, w.....""

There are a lot of phono stages to choose in between but my take is not exactly that but understand why exist a Phono Stage unit? Why not have only one electronic item with low noise/high gain where the signal goes directly to the amps, with no additional cables for a phono stage and additional electronics signal degradations?

Because that's the main point when we are talking of this or the other phono stage. Let me explain my opinion:

It's obvious, we need a phono stage because the cartridge signal that goes at the input of any phono stage needs to be proccessed in that unit with an Inverse RIAA Eq. Curve that be inverse can mimic the RIAA standard to have a flat response after the inverse RIAA was pplied to the signal and that is the main reason of the phono stage  existence.

Now, the RIAA curve is not an " easy or lower " equalization but the other way around. Its runs from 20hz to 20khz at around very high and low equalization levels around: +,- 20dbs ! !  and this means that that curve has a swing of 40dbs ! !  where any single/low deviation from the standard affects around 2 MUSIC octaves making a non-desired " colorations " work.

What all those really means? That the inverse must mimic the standard and this means: mimic accurately to stay nearer to the recording.

I'm not talking if the unit we own like it, it does not matters because that is not the main point but accuracy and today accuracy means phono stages with at least a RIAA deviation not higher than +,- 0.1db.

Ypsilon, DSA and almost all the names here but FMA are far away to acomplish an accurated inverse RIAA: your unit has a swing of 1.0 db!  To high. Where goes the money we pay for Ypsilon or other high priced electronics when are non-accurated.

Please remember that when I'm talking of accuracy this not means analythical. Far away from there, accuracy is just that: accuracy.

I like FMA but the Boulder 2108 is an option.

Again, I'm not talking of what we like I'm talking of what is wrong or rigth against what we are paid for the ps units. Some kind of critical measurements puts its finger where it hurts to the subjectivist gentlemans.

If you want something truly better of what you own then you have to think seriously on what I said here. Yes, only an opinion where the best one is your opinion along your room/system targets.

R.

And yes, you can put on sale your today electronics in case that you decide to own " the best of the best " quality true performance levels. Nothing less.

R.

Dear @drbond  : Agree, you need something better than Manley and An Ypsilon electronics.

If you really are looking for the better quality performance levels and I mean better not diffeent the you must to go for and all FM Acoustics full electronic system. This is phono stage, line stage and way superior amp that your over 90K monobloks.

This is the phono stage and please at the end of the link download critical information by pdf format ( you need to read it. ):

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/phono-linearizers/fm-223/

Nexte link for the amplifier and the measured of your monobloks where its higher than we want output impedance makes me ask: where are those 90+K ?, look for its frequency response.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

rrrrrrr

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ypsilon-electronics-hyperion-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements