As upgrade rush bites again, planning to perform some tube rolling on my Rouge Ares Magnum. Please share some experience with tube rolling on pure tube circuit topology phono preamps. Practical experiences are preferred. Theoretical options are welcome too.
I’ve done a ton of tube Rolling over the years on the Ares Magnum. The 12ax7 slots make a huge difference. My 3 favorites, from most favorite to less favorite: 1. Mazda silver plates - These have a little extra energy on top, so maybe not the best fit for systems already leaning bright, but they far exceed the next 2 choices in all other respects. Almost as good as a component upgrade. 2. Telefunken - Ribbed plates if you want a little extra zing up top, smooth plates if you want warmer or smoother. Smooth plates are more neutral overall, ribbed can be a little more exciting. Both great tubes, and plentiful if willing to buy used, so don’t overpay for supposed NOS from a dealer. 3. RCA tall black plates. Good overall tube, close to neutral with a touch of warmth and sweetness.
The 12au7 slots, eh I never liked 12au7. You can sub 12ay7 or 12at7 in here. I’ve also subbed 12bh7, which is what I ended up suing the most - MUCH better sounding than typical 12au7’s. The best 12bh7 are 1950s Sylvania black oval plates with D or square getters. RCA of any kind are also good (warm) and Tung-Sol are decent (leaning a bit bright). The real problem with 12bh7 is their noise and microphonics in this application. But the Ares isn’t really the quietest phono stage anyways, so I just went through a bunch until I found a pair "quiet enough" and went with that. For a strict 12au7 sub, the GE 5814 gray plate triple mica were decent enough sounding (warm), easy to find quiet ones of, and affordable.
Rogue OK’d the 12bh7 sub for me, several years ago. These tubes draw 0.3mA more current on their heaters. I’m not sure if Rogue would say they OK it today (they seem to be getting more conservative in their recommendations over time), but I never had any problems.
In all 12ax7-based tube phono stages I’ve had (Hagerman Trumpet, VAC, Herron), those lead 12ax7 make a huge sonic difference. The follower tubes also make a notable difference, though not as much as the 12ax7 until you start trying type substitutes (e.g. 12au7 to 12bh7 / 12ay7 / 12at7) - then the difference can get almost as big.
When I first got Super low noise 6922's from RAM Labs I was flabbergasted at how much quieter they were than the stock tubes. This is an ARC phono stage! Every set that I have gotten have been just as quiet. They are so quiet that with the volume cranked to the max I have to put my head up against the speaker to hear anything.
surfmuz, it is always best to use the specified tube.
tomwh, I tried to replace 12AU7 with 12AX7 ones, and it gave me a little bit more gain, not significantly, but noise increased too.. so SQ didn’t benefit from that switch.
lewm, I know that tricks with re stamped tubes… they use acetone to tear off original stamps and than put on a new signs. About five years ago I bought NOS rectifier MULLARD GZ34 from eBay faked like that :) fake signs just smeared off right away right in my hands after opening. So, no eBay that for sure… I do trust Upscale Audio and TubeDeapot…. regarding Chinese tubes, I had pretty good results with Sophia Electric Blue Glass 6SN7 using them with my preamp…never tried others.
Lewm I should proof read more. Grammar has never interested me but you got the drift. I have done lots of tube rolling and changing of tubes in the years. Your system is revealing enough that if you rolled you could hear the difference. Noticed I said difference not upgrade , better a cross the board etc.etc. etc...
My latest diy phono pre I tried 20 to 30 different tubes in number 1 position. Wide range of sound difference. 12ax7 is normally at the bottom of list. So I am not much help to the OP. In regards to noise 12ax7 is normally one of the best but then comes the sound well you can not always have everything.
Was reading the Rouge manual and it said if you want to use 12at7 you can and get less gain. This would be the first thing I would try. Just get a cheap pair and see if he likes the sound. Of course if gain is a issue it may be better with the 12ax7.
The one thing I did notice is that mullards tend to be full body and in the right circuit quite musical. The OP is at least willing to trust his own hears so he can roll and get what he wants out of the equipment he has.
Tube Rolling is a great experience. Learning how certain Brands and Production Era's interface in a circuit and deliver into the Downstream of the System is a something that is worthwhile undertaking.
Trusting the Supplied Tubes is the issue. I have come to terms with the fact that Tubes will make music happen, and to the inexperienced such as myself, I would not know whether one is of the ideal measurement. An asking price from a Vendor can suggest it is Factory Spec and certain supplied measurements will suggest the Tube is Factory Spec. Give such a Tube to a Time Served Valve Individual with Testing Kit and a full knowledge of testing and the supplied Tube can be proven to fall short of the Factory Spec by quite a margin.
I only purchase Tubes today that come with the right to return if a secondary measuring at my end does not match the vendors advertisement.
I have returned Tubes for the above reason, both NOS and New.
As a result of being vigilant with a purchase, I have Vintage Tubes in a DAC, Phon, and Power Amp. I have selected these over New Tubes as a result of Tube Rolling experiences.
surfmuz, What I meant is that there are nefarious persons who change the markings on tubes that otherwise look very much alike, so as to make inexpensive versions look just like rare and more valuable NOS tubes. So, before shelling out big bucks for a Telefunken or Amperex or etc, it is wise to equip yourself with the expertise necessary to tell them apart regardless of the labeling on the tube. On the other hand, I would totally trust Upscale Audio, Jim McShane, RAM, and certainly others with whom I am not directly familiar. I would NOT buy expensive tubes off eBay. Also, there are current manufacture tubes that do sound excellent and are reliable, made by JJ and Sovtek, for two examples. There you have good quality at reasonable cost. In my experience also, some of the Chinese made tubes sound great but have a shorter than average lifespan, way too short.
Yes, tubes age at different rates. It is however my experience that tubes that start off low noise continue to have relatively low noise over their life span. I undoubtedly change tubes prematurely. I change my oil prematurely also. Makes me feel better.
NOS vintage tubes sold these days are very likely to be fakes
Fakes, you mean like really fakes, made faked under popular brands and models or just low quality NOS described as something very special? Yes, testers gives you basic useful info, but of course not guaranteed that equipment won’t change tube function right after a tube being installed. Common vacuum leak could happen too specially during vintage NOS installation.
Tom, What is “pyseabo”? Is it another word for “placebo”? Or did autocorrect do damage to your intentions?
to the OP: I try to use high quality tubes. Once or twice I’ve paid extra to RAM or Kevin for matched or low noise tubes. However tubes age at different rates, so what are matched or low noise tubes today might not be so in a month or 6 months. Still it’s hard to argue not to start with low noise for the input and any other gain tubes in a phono stage. Beware that boutique or NOS vintage tubes sold these days are very likely to be fakes. I have some Telefunken and Amperex tubes that I bought in the late 70s; I believe they’re real but I have no gear that requires a 12AX7 or AU7. I don’t “roll” tubes with any expectation that SQ will improve because of the brand or provenance. I replace tubes that I suspect are near the end of their lifespan.I own a good tube tester, but the real way to test a tube is to measure how it is functioning in the equipment. To do that you need a knowledge of electronics and how to read a schematic.
Lewm is right, tube rolling will drive you crazy. The most important characteristic for a phono preamp is low noise. Both RAM Labs and Upscale Audio test their tubes. It is better to spend more on the super low noise tubes or Kevin's stash which are also superior in other parameters. Tubes are quite variable in these regards. With tube testing you know what you are getting. It's a good investment as preamp tubes can last a very long time. I change my phono stage tubes every 5 years whether they need it or not and my unit stays lit 24/7 (when I have a turntable:-(
Rolling some 12AX7 tubes in my Sun Valley phono pre. I found the Genalex Russian tubes to be way too bright and glaring. Brent Jesse turn to be on to some RCA vintage gray plates and those were pretty perfect. My music is mostly rock and roll. Jazz and classical folks might go with something a bit more nimble and musical like Siemens or Telefunken.
Mullard Blackburn longplates are very good. I also like the CV4003 boxplates, although the 12AU7 long plate square getter and large O-getter are cleaner sounding with excellent imaging.
I love the Brimar CV4003 boxplates, similar but more transparent than Mullard with very good highs.
@tomwh I don’t understand why you guys so desperately want to analyse some thing, give a suggestions or answer some questions. It was no questions in my post. I just wanted to hear other people experience and stories rolling phono preamp tubes. Again my post did not contain any questions.
it almost certain that you will be certain you hear differences
:))))))) that is funny one. In fact I could hear the difference almost right away, however to realize which one is better to my ears take some time. Could be several days.
Considering that the preamp accepts 3 different types of 12 volt tubes which will affect the overall gain considerbly it would be best to list your entire setup.
I understand. I like to tube roll, however, the sonic characteristics of a tube or set of tubes will depend on the circuit being used. I can't find which tube type the Ares Magnum uses, but there is a constant in selecting tubes for a phonostage; only use low-noise tubes. You often need to request they be noise tested by the dealer, or you state that they're for use in a phono preamp. The reason is the high amount of gain used to boost the signal from the cartridge. If using MC, you may need a high amount of gain which will increase any noise in the tubes. If using MM, not as critical.
Lewm say it isn't so. You really believe we are dealing with a pyseabo here. Of course without knowing what OP thinks is a upgrade is, how could one even begin. We also do not know what tubes he is using, brand and type.
OK then. Phono preamp is an extension of cart, arm, table. I'm sure you will be asked this question again.
Totally agreed with first part of your statement, but no offence, I’m pretty sure I will not ask any questions, cause I like my own experiments and conclusions. Just wanted to hear other people experience.
In general, I am not a fan of tube rolling. Listener bias makes it almost certain that you will be certain you hear differences right away. (Because you spent money on the new tubes.) But those impressions tend to fade over time, unless you are replacing truly worn out tubes, in which case you will inevitably love any fresh tubes. Given the fact you have supplied no further information, that is about the extent of any response I can conjure.
@lowrider57Sorry, I’m not really interested in suggestions based on my components or system analysis. What is really interested is other people experience in the topic.
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