Smodactal where in the world are you?
Showing 19 responses by audiotroy
Smodtactical, You have two very different sounding loudspeakers with fans on both sides. In terms of sheer technology and value for the dollar the Persona has a lot of advantages over the Magicos. The Persona has two additional bass drivers, a two 700 watt bass amplifiers per channel, and a full Anthem bass correction system. The room correction system allows you to get tight bass in any size room which allows the 9H to be used in rooms that you might consider too small for such a loudspeaker. The Persona also uses the same materials for the midrange and tweeter in this case both pure Beryilium and then you have the lens technology which helps create a very holographic image. Sonically the Personas have a transparency and a liveness in the treble and midrange which is just remarkable. The Magicos are a great example of a extraordinary conventional loudspeaker with a very inert cabinet, a Beryillium tweeter and a graphene based midrange driver. Parts and build quality on the Magico are as good as it gets. We have heard the Magicos for years at shows and at a few dealers they are much more netural than the Personas, at Axpona we heard many Magio setups with very expensive electronics and nearly every setup the speakers were not involving. The big Magico M6 with dual subs and Dagastino gear has a huge sense of scale but failed to sound musical. The only setup that we thought was actually quite good was the S3 with the new Classe gear, and this setup was musical with a nice sense of clarity and a good soundstage. If you are ever in our neck of the woods we would love to demonstrate what a well setup set of 9H can sound like, our setup is the remarkable T+A electronics with a number of different dacs. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Mheinze you have absolutely no idea how dsp works. First the eq only affects the bass freqencies. Secondly at wavelengths as long as bass frequencies a tiny delay in those frequencies can actually help create a waveform which the bass is actually in time with other drivers at the listening position. Third by removing peaks and dips in the lower frequencies the entire speaker sounds better. A brittle bright configuration means something was not matched correctly. Where did you hear a set of 9H and what were they driving the speakers with? |
Sciencecop many listening rooms have an abundance of absortave materials which can smooth out perceived brightness. Here is the Stereophile measurements of the Magico S5 note the large suck out in the top end It looks like neither speaker is flat. So you can have a top end that in a real listening room may sound balanced the Persona or one which may sound dull the Magico. https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-s5-mkii-loudspeaker-measurements |
mtdining please explain in what way is the Daw better? We have heard DAW and they are very good, but better sorry no that is a matter of opinion and taste. The two speakers are very different, the Personas are more detailed and have an incredible pinpoint holographic soundstage. The DAW tend to stil emphasis a bass hump although it is much less then any other models, they also have a richer less detailed presentation. The Personas are more efficient and you don’t have to work like a fiend to get the bass sounding correct due to the Personas room correction. The Personas also are easy to drive without the low impedance dip. The Magico, Rockport, Persona, Wilson speakers are all fantastic for each listeners personal quest and any of these speakers when setup correctly will and can produce some awesome results. Each product has its strengths and weaknesses none of these speakers are perfect. The biggest issue we would have with Paradigm is that the open dealers who may not have the right demonstatration facilities for matching electronics. Most of the time when you go to a Wilson, or Magico dealer these dealers are the uber dedicated dealers. Also at shows Paradigm has usutally shown their own electronics which are great for the price but not in the league of the more expensive stuff. If you want to hear just how spectacular the Personas can sound our showroom’s doors are open. We have them setup with the right level of matching electronics, cabing and dacs and they sound as good as any of the expensive Magico’s including the M2 and the Wilson Alexias. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Sciencecop please explain how it is a FACT that the entire signal is dsp controlled? Without the room correction being applied dsp would not be necessary. Do you work for Paradigm? Even if the signal is run by dsp for the lower frequencies why is that necessarily a bad thing if the speakers sound good? The other thing is the Persona 7F is the same speaker without the room correction so you can have it either way. Sciencecop what is your point here? You don't like the Persona that is fine, many other people do like them. |
Sciencecop, it is interesting that you get your facts wrong all the time. First of all you have no idea how the Paradigm engineers designed the system. The rear woofers may be the only drivers that are being used with the room correction signal and those are crossed over at 200hz. Did you actually talk to their engineers and see how they designed the system? So it is entirely possible that the front firing woofers have 0 dsp being applied to then. As per annoying the speakers can sound great as good or better than anything else at the price and then some. If your issue is DSP than the Persona 7F would be your loudspeaker, there Sciencecop same speakers no DSP at all. The reality is that the clean, well defined bass response which eliminates huge peaks and valleys in your bass response helps make the speaker sound cleaner especially in the lower midrange. How many systems sound bloated and murky because there are huge overlaps in bass information from corner loading or other bass nodes? Interesting that we all perceive things differently. We have heard all the current Vandersteens and quite frankly find them exceedingly okay sounding and hardly the best and only loudspeaker out there. We have heard many of the Magicos at shows and found them mostly to be boring sounding, and if you note the frequency response graph the S5MK II in stereophile they show a 3-5db dip in much of the frequency response. What is weird is the A3 at the NY Audio show are super aggressive sounding and disjointed. We no of two people on the boards that had Vandys and found them way too problematic for them and both of those people have moved on to other speakers. One of these guys bought a pair of Kef R11 from us. As we have stated time and time again, no pun intended many of the most favored loudspeakers on the market are not time and phase aligned designs. So if you like Magico, Wilson, Rockport, KEF,Focal, Radiho, Von Schweikert, Harbeth, Martin Logans, etc than you must be broken. The truth is not everyone is sensitive to time related distortions and many loudspeaker designers feel that the first order slope passing information the drivers are not designed to handle creates distortions that you can not easily tune out, look, at a Thiel crossover with all the components on the board used to control the drivers in order to create a seem-less blend from the drivers that they designed. Other issues with first order designs are increasing distortion at higher volumes. So it seems that no design is perfect and all of these loudspeakers can sound great or not great depending on your taste, room acoustics and system matching. What we really love is Sciencecop telling Contuzzi, Steve59, Us, Nabcs, Yysantabarbera, that we are all out of our minds for not subscribing to his world view. Many people are buying and enjoying the new Paradigm Persona speakers, are they perfect no they are not, they do a lot of thing very well, transparency, image holography, deep tight bass response, easy to drive and stunning looks all for a very competitive price. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Mheinze, please grow up. If you read any of the above posts we said the following about Magicos that we have heard at Axpona The Magicos are a great example of a extraordinary conventional loudspeaker with a very inert cabinet, a Beryillium tweeter and a graphene based midrange driver. Parts and build quality on the Magico are as good as it gets. We have heard the Magicos for years at shows and at a few dealers they are much more netural than the Personas, at Axpona we heard many Magio setups with very expensive electronics and nearly every setup the speakers were not involving. The big Magico M6 with dual subs and Dagastino gear has a huge sense of scale but failed to sound musical. The only setup that we thought was actually quite good was the S3 with the new Classe gear, and this setup was musical with a nice sense of clarity and a good soundstage. Last one hardly seems like we are trashing them does it? The Classe Magico setup was indeed very good sounding and we thought that setup was in many ways far more enjoyable then the really expensive setups at the show. As per understanding the products we sell we certaintly do. The new Golden Ear Tritron 1R use DSP in their bass and the speakers sound good. The Personas sound very good and can frankly sound amazing if setup correctly. We care that the DSP room correction can make the speakers sound fantastic in rooms that a speaker with big bass generally would work. We do not hear the problems that Sciencecop hears. Most people don' t care if their speakers use first order or second order slopes or thrid order or fourth. Other than on these boards when in a discussion you can point out the reason why many designers dont make first order loudspeakers, and the reason why others do. The fact that you as a consumer didn't buy your loudspeakers based on their crossover slope you bought them because they moved you when playing music it is that simple. Meinze we get people all the time contacting us and finding validity in what we say. Did we say the Magicos aren't good and the Paradigms are better no we didn't we gave a pretty accurate summation of our findings. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona Dealers |
M-db what point are you trying to raise here? It seems their lead engineer is a man name Oleg Bogdonov. https://youtu.be/Nv6wK2XenAc |
Really Sciencecop we guess reading isnt one of your strong suits. https://www.paradigm.com/en/technology-design/patented-perforated-phase-aligning-ppa-lens https://youtu.be/DwA_uf_694I https://patents.google.com/patent/US10003869B2/en?inventor=Oleg+Bogdanov Yes they sound so eteched that they are getting rave reviews everywhere. Interesting they are also selling very well and can sound magnificent if you know what you are doing with them. https://youtu.be/Q9cFZk-GhLw Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Contuzzi, their is no doubt in our minds that the Persona 3f is the better value, for one brief shining momment the Me1 was lowered to $10k at that price the speaker was a great deal. We have heard the Me 1 sounding very good, with a slightly richer midrange response than the 3F. They still sound more like a monitor on a stand and for $5k less the 3F is just so hard to beat, for $5k you can get yourself a great dac or be half way to a great sounding intergrated amplifier. We do think that the ME 1 for a person with a very small room who wants a stand mounted speaker is one of the best of its kinds. The reality as we see it is that if you dial in the 3f it is one remarkable loudspeaker that sounds more like a $20k loudspeaker than a $10k one. We setup our Persona 3F on a setup of Naim Separates for $13k with the Paradigm SW 1000 a compact subwoofer from Paradigm and the sound was just remarkable and the entire system was more affordable then many reference systems we have heard that were two to three times the price. The way we see it is that the 3f if used with the right combination of gear does so many things extremely well: a huge soundstage, great image float, superb detail, very tight deep bass response for its price point it is very hard to beat. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Contuzzi, have to agree with you here. Especially in terms of bass response in adverse rooms you are right on the money! Audio Doctor showcased the Persona 9H at the New York audio show in 2016 right after they came out. This was one of the first public showings of the speakers. We were not in a ball room or a giant demo room just a regularly sized hotel room, the entire room from side to side was probably about 14 feet wide with the length of the room perhaps being 16-18 feet. We had the speakers very close to the side walls, toed in signficantly with three rows of seating. The speakers were setup on the long wall. The local rep and Paradigms sales manager ran the Anthem Room correction in multiple locations. The dip in the bass response was dramatic from the before no room correction vs the post room correction plot. The ARC function allowed the bass to be deep and tight and not to over load such a small room. The sound for a big system in a small room was breathtaking and was a perfect example to showcase how much a difference that the Anthem Room Correction software was creating a listenable tight tuneful bass reponse in a room that should have been boomy and bloated with a bass response that would dominate over the high and mids. https://hometheaterhifi.com/features/show-reports-film-festivals-concerts/new-york-audio-show-2016/ https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/pcb.1322387171167826/1322378621168681/?type=3&theat... Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Again have to agree with Contuzzi, Mr. Boviard, is a rather brilliant businessman who started his own forum which he is the owner and head moderator. Sure anyone can post but in most cases the discord is hardly unbiased. We answered a post about the Personas and of course were quickly shot down with the same post as Magico is way better etc, too bright same stuff. The reality is that the Personas are a total challenger to any of the $60k-100k uber boutique brands such as Rockport, Magico or Wilson. We demoed a $120k pair of Kharmas with a Diamond tweeter, custom kevlar midrange and a 12 inch Eaton midrange the speakers weighed about 400 pounds they sounded good but in no way was a superior sound to the Persona 9H at 1/4 the price. Also have to agree with Yysantabarbera, the Persona will sound good or bad depending on the electronics which you pair them with. We have heard different Persona models at stores in CA, at two different stores in MA, a store in NJ, and most of the demos were hardly convincing in demonstrating just how remarkable the speakers can sound, none of the demos the speakers sounded bad but none of the demos were wow demos either. This is a very high resolution line of loudspeakers and the tweeter and midrange drivers do not hold anything back. When we were seaching for electronics for them we tried: Conrad Johnson and Manly Labs Tube amplifiers, Electrcompaniet, Chord, Devialet, Thrax and finally T+A before the speakers really started to sound amazing. The Persona 9h can reward you will breathtaking realisim at a price far below their competion or they can sound bright, flat and uninvolving. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Ricredi which dealer and what speakers and how were they setup? Compare how we run our Persona 9H and the equipment we use them with: https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/a.1114621131944432/2414413985298467/?type=3&theater You will notice T+A electronics, a Critical Mass Rack, Acoustical Treatment, power conditioning, no other speakers in line, high end cabling, Isoacoustic footers. Not shown: State of the art digital: T+A PDP 3000, Light Harmonic Davinci, Aqua Hifi Formula XHD, Innous server. One dealer in another state was showcasing a $17 pair of Persona 5F in a room with many pairs of speakers on all three walls, no room treatment, and the best electronics were a few $3k Musical Fidelity pieces and an Anthem STR intergrated. Another dealer we visted had three Personas all crammed together on the back wall with many other speakers on top their best electronics an Nad preamp with a Parasound amplifier. Compare our sound room where we demo the Persona 3F https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/a.122499441156611/1884269391646265/?type=3&theater Electronics from $1k Rega, Peachtree, Nad, to $30k Naim stack. Intergrated amplfiers: Naim, Sythesis, Unsion Research, Krell, Micromega, Cables from $3,400.00 for speaker cables, power conditioning. etc. Part of this issue is dealers showrooms and not having the care and matching equipment to showcase the Persona to their utmost. They sound fantastic on warmer electronics: Krell, Naim, Micromega they are not going to sound fanatastic on brighter or leaner electronics. Please understand we are not trying to say we are better and any other dealers are not good, the issue is how well are some of these dealers setting up their Personas? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Smodtactical, we have the Kef Blades which are very good not as transparent and do not throw as focused a soundstage but they sound bigger with a more rounded deeper bass. The Vimbergs sounded amazing at Axpona, it would be hard to tell if they sound better per say, they seem like they sound similar to the Personas with a richer overall but still highly detailed presentation, nor do they have as deep of a bass response but overall they were fantastic sounding and on our list as one of the standouts at that show. We do like Rockport speakers but haven’t heard them in a while, don’t believe that would image as holographically and the transparency in the midrange isn’t as good as the Personas, but overall a great speaker company. Also at Axpona the Wilson DAW were sounding really good. Those would be our recommendations. As per Mike it is doubtful he ever had a pair in his shop, if he did a quick drop and plop without due dilligence in setup he would probably not like them. Also Mike pushes the hell out of Magico so why would he want to bring in a direct competitor that looks prettier, is more efficient, images with more holography, and in the case of the Persona 9H offers better bass in any size room with the built in subwoofers with Anthem Room Correction. We are willing to bet he never had a pair in his shop and based his dislike on hearing them elsewhere. A dealer would be able to answer which amplifer and setups he used. Food for thought. As you are a Canadidan the Personas shoud be way less expensive in Canada for you. If you factor that vs the greater cost of many competitors you should strongly consider the 9H personally we think that if you invest in good electronics, source and cabling you will get fantastic results with the 9H. When they are setup correctly they are smooth, image incrediibly well, have very tight bass and have incredible resolution. Personally our setup of the T+A electronics, Aqua Hifi dac, Innous Statement plus good power conditioning and cabling is one pretty amazing system if you are in the East Coast of the United States you should come over and hear our demo system it is pretty amazing. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Smodtactical You shouldn't worry at all about Beryillium cracking, exploding or anything like that. The only danger is in dealing with Beryillium is in the manufacturing stage. We have changed out the midrange driver and it is totally safe, Beryillium is toxic as a dust or gassous particle or any airborne fragment, that could be inhaled. A finished Beryillium driver is totally safe, we would not recommend that you eat one but your fears are unfounded. Also as you are in Canda that is why your pricing is better, pretty sure that part of the costs are higher in the US due to transportation costs and probably US duties and customs fees which may be less with Nafta but most likely they add substantially to the US prices. Also we wonder if the reason the Contriva G2 sounded better because it was on different gear perhaps? We has both the Polymer Audio Research a $68k loudspeaker with both Acuton's pure Diamond midrange and tweeters, in a 360 lb all metal enclosure with all silver wiring, and the Polymers didn't sound a lot better than the 9H. We also listened to a $120k set of Kharma Exquisite Classiques and they were also very good, they weren't better than the Persona 9H either just different. The only issue we have with our current setup is that we want a bit warmer puncher bass but that may be possible with ARC Genesis. We haven't retuned our 9H in a while. We find the marriage of the Persona with the T+A gear which is warm and very liquid with outstanding detail to be a fantastic combination. You really should just get a pair there is nothing which can really better them for this kind of money. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |