Organ CDs with really deep bass

Av2k: great post! Welcome to this nuthouse!!

I recently joined Audiogon and spotted this thread. Check out Stephen Tharp at the Skinner organ in Girard College (Ethereal ER-108). The 32' Pedal Diapason is very effective. I had the opportunity one day, during the OHS convention in Philadelphia, to help Ed Kelly (Mobile Masters) record several organs. He can certainly find the sweet spot for recording a pipe organ. The resonance of the building is extremely important. The building is to a pipe organ as a soundboard is to a piano.

If you're still interested, I have about 500 organ CD's and can make some further recommendations on CDs with both good sound and deep bass (no electronic 32's). By the way, the Wanamaker Organ has a resultant 64' that is created by sounding the 32' fundamental and adding a fifth at 21 1/3' pitch for a resulting 64' tone at 8 Hz. Same deal with many other 64' flue stops, e.g. Liverpool Cathedral. They go by the names Resultant, Acoustic Bass, Gravissima, or in combination.

I believe the Atlantic City Convention Hall organ has a full length 64' flue stop. The Hill organ in Sydney Town Hall has a 64' reed in the Pedal. David Drury plays the Liszt "Ad Nos" on this organ (ABC 438 881-2) and at the ending, it sounds like a helicopter hovering over the music! It's impressive.

And thank YOU, Texasdave! I'll be on the lookout for those you recommend.

Here are a couple more recommendable organ CDs with fine music, fine performances, excellent sound and really deep bass that will keep your subwoofer occupied:

Michael Murray, organ; Encores a la francaise and Poulenc Organ Concerto (with Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, Robert Shaw, cond.); Telarc CD-80104. This features the organ at Symphony Hall, Boston, in the encores, and the Aeolian-Skinner organ in the Cathedral of St. Philip, Atlanta, in the Poulenc.

Michael Murray, organ; Jongen Symphonie Concertante (with San Francisco Symphony, Edo De Waart, cond.) and Franck, Fantaisie and Pastorale; Telarc CD-80096. This features the Ruffati organ in Davies Symphony Hall, San Francisco, about which the CD notes claim: "said to be the largest concert hall organ in the world." As Rcprince notes in one of his posts above, there is also a fine Dorian CD with Jean Guillou playing the organ in Meyerson Center, Dallas (with the Dallas Symphony Orchestra under Mata) that is an excellent version of the Jongen, very well recorded and with deep bass.

Thanks, Cpdunn99, for your recommendations.

Here are two more recommendations for organ CDs that I've found outstanding.

1. Michael Murray, Bach, The Great Organ at Methuen (Mass.), Telarc CD-80049. In my opinion this is one of the greatest organs in the USA, and it has an unusual history. Built by the Bavarian firm of Walcker in 1857-63 for the Boston Music Hall, it was the first concert organ in the country. In 1884 it was dismantled to give stage space for the new Boston Symphony Orchestra. In 1897 it was purchased by a wealthy gent who commissioned a lavish new music hall in Methuen Mass. for it, where it was installed and rededicated in 1909. It must be one of the very few organs in the world that enjoys its own music hall built especially to house it. It was revised and rebuilt by the famous G. Donald Harrison of Aeolian-Skinner in 1947. Today it has four manuals, 84 stops, 115 ranks, and more than 6,000 pipes (including two 32-foot pedal pipes).

The description of the tonal qualities of this organ in the CD notes (uncredited, but I suspect by Murray) is so apt, so right-on-target that I'd like to quote it: "Neither wholly romantic nor wholly classic, the Methuen organ partakes of both styles of instrument and is suited to both styles of music. Its beauties include a unique mellowness that comes only to well-built flue pipes and only after decades of seasoning, and a miraculous blending of 8' foundations, whose harmonics interweave like the colors of a tapestry. The tutti is overwhelming, not abrasive. The mixtures are bright, not shrill. The foundations are full-bodied but remain, in even the most complex polyphony, clear. Accordingly, the Methuen organ is renowned as one of the world's artistic treasures." Indeed, it's a rare beauty.

Why this magnificent organ isn't better known and hasn't been more frequently recorded is a mystery to me. I used to have an old mono Columbia LP of Biggs playing a recital on it. If there are other presently available recordings of it, I'd like to know about them.

2. Michael Murray, Bach, The Organs at First Congregational Church, Los Angeles, Telarc CD-80088. This Skinner-Schlicker instrument is a very large organ in a very large church. Actually it is two organs at opposite ends of the nave, with twin consoles, four manuals, 214 ranks, "including several of 32-foot pitch" (I don't have the specification). Again, a superb big organ. This recital includes the ubiquitous Toccata and Fugue in D Minor BWV 565, in a performance as stirring and satisfying as any I've heard (and anyone who's an organ buff has heard a great many!).

To my ears both these Michael Murray Telarc CDs have it all: a master organist playing major Bach works on two magnificent instruments, both with exemplary sound: full, rich, clear, and vivid, with excellent, natural bass. If you relish organs and organ music, it doesn't get much better than this. Together with the Murray "The Young Bach" CD on Telarc described in one of the posts above, these are three of my "desert island" organ CDs.

Some that I've found to be quite revealing:

JS Bach:
Toccatas, Fugues, Fantasia, etc. (Works for Organ, vol. 4)
Kevin Bowyer (organ)
Nimbus (1993)

Chorale Preludes, Preludes, Fugues, etc. (Works for Organ, vol. 8)
Kevin Bowyer (organ)
Nimbus (1996)

Toccatas and Fugues, BWV 538, 540, 564, 565; Passacaglia in C min., BWV 582
Christopher Herrick (organ)
Hyperion (1990)

Trio Sonatas 1-6, BWV 525-530
David Sanger (organ)
Meridian (1991)

Orlando Gibbons:
Keyboard Music ("The Woods So Wild")
John Toll (harpsichord and organ)
Linn (2002)

Eldartford, thanks for the tip about the Telarc Mormon Tabernacle CD. I'll check it out.

Thanks for the additional information, Rcprince. I regularly attended organ concerts in the National Cathedral outside Washington DC back in 1963-64. I was quite impressed by this mighty organ (in fact it was the experience of hearing concerts played on this organ that got me hooked on organs and organ music), and if I remember correctly I got a specification of it at the time; I believe it's an Aeolian-Skinner organ, and I'm pretty sure it does not have a 64-foot pipe. Like you I would have guessed that the huge Wanamaker organ in Philadelphia would be a likely candidate to have such a pipe. I seem to remember years ago encountering a reference to some continental European organ(s) with such a pipe. Anyone know more about this?

I love your story about the pictures coming off the walls and the staff exiting the building when the 16 Hz tone was generated at your church! This rig really sounds like a kind of super subwoofer and amp, basically pretty much like what we audiophiles use, although no doubt larger and more powerful--would that be correct? Speaking of knocking the pictures off the walls, I haven't had that happen, but when I play the bass warble tones on any of the three Stereophile Test CDs (very useful, I've found, in finding the optimum positions for speakers and subwoofers and setting levels), I've noticed that when I get down to the 25 Hz and 20 Hz warble tones, I start to get a significant (clearly audible) amount of rattling, shaking, and buzzing of various objects in the room. To a lesser extent I also occasionally get this with some pipe organ recordings (had it happen just yesterday, in fact, with Christopher Herrick's Organ Fireworks volume 9 on Hyperion, a CD that could certainly be added to the list of recommendable, well-recorded organ CDs with really deep bass).

When I do want to shake my house I use Telarc SACD 60579 "The Sound of Glory" Morman Tabernacle Chior. This is not exclusively organ music, but they do have one monster organ there in Salt Lake City, and most of the stops were pulled out on some of the selections. This is a Hybrid disc, so it will work on a regular CD player, although I have never used it that way.

As far as 64 foot stops go, there are some organs that have them; I think the Washington Cathedral may have one, and perhaps the Wannamaker Organ in Philadelphia. There's supposedly a 64 foot stop and 8hz note used on the M&K Power and Glory LP, although that may be a resultant from two 32 foot stops; my system doen't go low enough to hear it, although I remember some queaziness in my stomach listening to it, so there may be some truth to the rumor.

On the use of an electronic 32 foot stop, we use a tone generator for the 32 foot stop of our small organ in my church. When we got the thing (it's really a large speaker, which you amplify with an amp with a level control), I put it on a wheelbarrow and wheeled it around the church working with our organist to find the spot it would best integrate with the rest of the organ. We wound up putting it above and behind the choir loft, adjacent to the church offices and a large meeting room. When our organist, who loves deep bass, set the amplifier to figure the proper level, he initially didn't realize how sensitive the driver was, and when he played the first 16hz low C he knocked all the pictures off the walls in the meeting room and offices and drove the church staff out of the building fearing that an earthquake had occurred (any of you had that problem integrating a subwoofer?)! It may be cheating, Texasdave, but it actually does work quite well, and is a nice alternative for an organ that doesn't have the space in its chambers for a true 32 foot pipe.

1. I'd like to thank those who have responded, especially Rcprince for his informed, knowledgeable responses, on the basis of which I am ordering the Felix Hell Reference Recordings CD and the David Higgs Delos CD of his recital on the Dallas Meyerson organ. This is just the kind of information I'd hoped to elicit, and I appreciate it.

2. There are very few organs in the world (I don't know how many) that have a 64-foot pipe. The gigantic Willis organ (146 stops, almost 11,000 pipes) in the Royal Albert Hall in London is one of them, and I believe there are one or two or three more. If I am correct this pipe would have a fundamental tone of 8 Hz, which would be less a musical "tone" than a minor seismic event, an almost countable pulse in the air. I doubt there has ever been an attempt to record this tone, and if it could be recorded I suppose nobody could play it back. But just as a sort of extra-musical curiosity, does anyone know anything about this esoteric subject?

3. Curiously enough, as Rcprince was writing and sending his second response, I was listening to the Dorian CD of Guillou and the Dallas SO playing the Jongen Symphonie Concertante and the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony, using the then-new Fisk organ in the Meyerson Center. You are quite right to point out the deep bass in the Jongen--a delightful performance and a very successful recording. To my ears the Saint-Saens is considerably less so; I don't like the balances here, with the organ too recessed and almost buried in the orchestral fabric. I realize that this was a conscious decision of the recording engineers, as explained in the notes, but I think it was a misjudgment and prevents this recording from being a candidate for one of the best performances of the Saint-Saens. I find not just the balances but the overall sound, including that of the orchestra, superior in the Jongen. You are quite right that the differences in the two are very clearly audible.

4. You might be interested to know that I live in Plano, TX, a suburb of Dallas, and am a season ticketholder of the Dallas SO, and have heard this organ in the Meyerson several times in concerts there. The DSO's resident organist Mary Preston gives monthly demonstrations on it (I'm attending the one in December). I've heard her perform the Saint-Saens with the DSO there and the results were very impressive--and somewhat comical in a way that I'm sure was not intended. The Meyerson has seating for a sizable chorus behind the orchestra and directly (and I do mean directly) in front of the organ, and these seats are sold to concertgoers when there is no chorus present. I was surprised to find these seats occupied by concertgoers for the Saint-Saens, and I wondered how many of them knew what they were going to be in for. I suspect most of them didn't, to judge from the outcome, because when the organ came barreling in full-bore in its stunning entry at the beginning of the Maestoso last movement, I saw many of them levitate a few inches out of their seats in shock; what they were hearing must have been deafening! I'm glad I wasn't sitting there.

5. It's disappointing to learn that the Ruffati organ in the Davies Hall doesn't use real 32-foot pipes but an electronic tone generator. No doubt it works, but somehow it seems like cheating. Thanks for this information, though, and I don't think I'd have known if you hadn't told me. I'll have to try to hear the Guillou/DeWaart Philips recording of the Saint-Saens (although I have so many versions of this piece already that I've no business acquiring any more).

6. I love the bit about being accompanied by the sound of Widor spinning in his grave! Yes, I know Guillou's reputation as a somewhat wayward free spirit (he is also a composer and a great improviser) and not the organist anyone would go to for "correct" or "scholarly" interpretations. Nevertheless I think his Dorian CDs are absolutely delightful; I have them all and take great pleasure in them, and they are magnificently recorded. Of course he is titulaire at St. Eustache in Paris, and that is a grand and mighty and impressive organ, but I like even better the recordings he has made on the Kleuker-Steinmeyer organ of the Tonhalle, Zurich, and the (rather small) Kleuker organ of Notre-Dame des Neiges, Alpe d'Huez, France; these are so colorful as played by Guillou and are recorded by Dorian with wonderful clarity and focus. (Guillou had significant input into the design of all three of these organs.)

7. I understand what you are saying about Murray and can see why some might find his playing a bit stodgy. But I find him an eminently satisfying organist, sound and musicianly, and I especially like his Bach. His playing is never flashy or trendy and he never seems to be trying to show off. One of his best Telarc CDs is The Young Bach, played on the lovely Gabriel Kney organ at the College of St. Thomas, St. Paul Minnesota. This is a rather small organ recorded with wonderful clarity and vividness by Telarc, and I think this CD is a triumph for all concerned.

8. Other favorite organists of mine are Herrick, Alain, and Hurford, and I still love a number of the old Biggs recordings. Fox I have never much cared for; there is often something garish and vulgar about his playing to my ears. But I know many organ buffs admire him.

9. I'd love to hear from any other organ buffs who'd like to recommend favorite organ recordings with first-rate sound. Thanks again.

If member sdcampbell does not reply to this thread you might drop Scott a line, also.

Eldartford, another SACD, relatively unreported on, with both good sound (and some deep bass) and a good performance is the Linn SACD of the Poulenc Organ Concerto (Gillian Weir is the organist). Shows off SACD's ability to capture ambience well, and a fun piece to listen to. Haven't heard it in multichannel, but I'd think it would lend itself well to that. I'm going to check my collection at home for more, but I will note that Christopher Herrick's recordings on Hyperion are uniformly excellent (his Organ Fireworks series, while not his favorite recordings for them, are a lot of fun and show off a lot of bass, and his Bach recordings are my favorites), and the Priory series of great European church organs is also terrific, with some better than others but generally very well recorded. Those interested in organ recordings of all sorts should check out the Gothic Records catalog (I assume they have a website under their name) and the Organ Historical Society website at catalog@organsociety.org.

It won't shake your house, but a Multichannel SACD, Sony SS87983, E Power Biggs playing Bach Toccatas and Fugues is interesting, because he is playing four organs located in various places in the Cathedral of Freiburg. His interpretation of these old warhorses as antiphonal compositions really works. I don't think this was ever realized before because it is unusual to have a setup where you can play more than one organ at a time. As I understand it, each organ has its own keyboard and can be played by itself, but there is also a "master" keyboard which can play any or all of the four organs.

Another one with the Ruffati organ in Davies Hall is the Saint Saens Organ Symphony with (who else) Guillou and DeWaart on Philips. The second movement has some true 32 foot stops used throughout, although softer stops are used, not the Bombarde stops, so the sound is gentle. Interestingly, I don't think Guillou used those stops on his recording of the same symphony on Dorian (coupled with the Jongen mentioned earlier). The DeWaart disc also has Guillou playing the most unusual version of the Widor Allegro from his 6th organ symphony you'll ever hear, with a cadenza of his own at the end which a TAS reviewer said should be accompanied by the sound of Widor spinning in his grave! A couple of minutiae--(1) the Ruffati organ does not use pipes for its 32 foot stops, but rather an electronic tone generator (many of my organist friends prefer that, in that pipes of that size are tough to keep on pitch (what little pitch you can hear from those notes) and can sometimes shudder and create a racket), as in many current organs such as the one near me at Sacred Heart Cathedral in Newark; and (2) the Dorian disc with the Saint Saens and Jongen is a very good example of the adjustable acoustics used in the Meyerson Center Hall--the Jongen was recorded with the acoustics set to be more reverberant, as it's more a concerto featuring the organ, while the Saint Saens has the acoustics a bit drier in comparison, as the organ is part of the orchestra in that piece. On a good system, you'll hear that difference very easily.

Get the new Reference Recordings "Organ Sensation" with the 17 year old prodigy Felix Hell. About the best recorded and performed organ disc I've ever heard, with Guillmant and Liszt showpieces that will literally shake your house down. I have a private recording that the man who designed my speakers made (he also builds organs) of him when he was 13 years old; the kid is a true phenomenon.

The Telarc disc you mention is pretty good, though Murray, while technically a great organist, to my taste lacks the fire and excitement some others (such as Hell, Christopher Herrick, Virgil Fox and Guillou) had or have. Since Murray never makes a mistake, though, he was the ideal organist for Telarc, particularly when they recorded direct-to-disc in the early days of the label. Delos also has a number of fine organ recordings; the one of David Higgs playing the inaugural recital on the Meyerson Center organ in Dallas is terrific, with plenty of bass on the Liszt BACH fugue. Finally (for now), the Dorian recording of Guillou playing the Jongen Symphonie Concertante has plenty of work on the 32 foot stops, and is a fine recording and performance.