One key to building great systems over time.

@b_lee

Wow, I am really sorry to hear the experiences you have had with dealers. That is horrible.

Much of my interactions with dealers has been extended and great. One for ten years and two for twenty years. Each were generous with their time, absolutely honest (if they thought a component that they did not sell would be better… they would recommend going elsewhere), and collaborative.

When I go into a new store, I first find the owner / head honcho. I introduce myself, and my current system and long term strategy. Then I let him go. If he quizzes me, to better understand my values in sound… generally resulting in broad discussions on all things audio, this is good. From this discussion, I can assess his skill / experience level, his integrity, and emphasis on selling. Is this the kind of guy who knows all the different categories of sounds different people value, or only knows his own? Good folks take the challenge of understanding you and helping you achieve what you want. Most often my first trip is simply to establish a relationship… of see if it is possible. Sometimes, I know much more than he does. In that case, I can go in if I know what I want and I can ask him to hook up the components I want… I end up teaching him… that can be fun if he wants to learn.

Sometimes the result is that sales are the only important thing. This can be great, because the guy looses interest in you and you can just go into his best listening room and he goes back to his office. I have spent hours and hours with great systems like this.

I have found seldom has a trip been wasted. Even if it is clear I may never buy there, I get real experience. Then I have gotten a couple of long termed friends from this.

@mdalton

Thank you for your comments.

I really do not think we disagree. I am definitely not saying there is one path. I am pointing out that there is a path, that while still requiring lots of work, has a much higher probability of long term success. There is a real long term learning curve over time for listening and often values. You constantly don’t know what you don’t know yet.
 

Yes, exactly as you say, I am saying it is a safer path to take… I think that captures it. The path has lots of markers… it is not thrashing around the woods so much.

I have actually spent more money (early on), thinking I had found this wonderful component, only to find I didn’t when I learned more. Are there boutique components that hold up to the big guys in all respects… yes, but they are far between. Those are the budding new companies that will eventually become main stream.

@dentdog 

Yes, absolutely. Piecing together a fantastic system is all about “tne right stuff”, and for most of us, the right stuff is typically out of reach… until… suddenly it is… a special discount, a used component, a raise. 

@mrdecibel 

Thank you for your kind words about my system. Over time my tastes have definitely moved towards musical. This being the most musical system I have ever owned… I never listen to my system… it is always the music… and as I probably mentioned earlier, after three hours of listening I have to drag myself away to do something else.

@mrdecibel

I agree that audiophile has no connotation on whether the person in question prizes listening to music or their system, or somewhere in between. Absolutely the high end audio cater to their clients. It is a continuum from nearly entirely one versus the other. Over our time I have met folks everywhere on the continuum. I’m not sure I have picked up on a trend over time.

I have heard lots of very expensive systems that have not appealed to me. The worst (to me ) are the details at all costs… with lots of distortion and high frequency hash… without rhythm and pace, and midrange bloom. Sometimes the systems are poorly set up, sometimes poor component matched.. I can usually tell what they were going for and if it is targeted at a specific audience (the detail / slam folks) or just poorly set up.

I have heard a lot more inexpensive systems that have sounded terrible. Often, less expensive components have more flaws and are assembled by less capable staff or enthusiasts. I have done a lot of auditions over the years. My partner and I have often started to listen to a system and quickly turned to each other and rolled our eyes and walked out. She is not interested in high end audio, but has ultra sensitive ears of a women that are easily offended by distortion and high frequency hash.

Your system looks very enjoyable.

The definitions of audiophile I have heard and lived with for the last fifty years always include a very strong thread of obsession… always willing to… well in my case buy discount brands of paper towels, tp, buy an old cheap car (my used 1969 Datsun 1200, in which I rebuilt the engine, got me around for over 15 years, this’ll avoiding popularity with all but the most desperate woman), while I took out my first loan on a Threshold s500 amp ($5K, $19K in todays dollars). An audiophiles system always cost more than their car. This has always been true for me.

My partner always comments that the ratio between audio dollars and normal dollars is about 100 to 1. I will really try to find a way to avoid spending $20 but a $2K on a new cable gets an instant and easy yes.

Audiophilia is generally considered a disease by those with it as well as those around them… while somewhat jokingly… with a lot of truth.

There are also hi-fi enthusiasts and a couple other classifications where consideration is put into how much better does it sound… and is it worth it. Typically “is it worth it?” Is only heard from enthusiasts, or in private intimate discussions between two audiophiles… fully knowing no one else would even hear the minute difference being discussed.

@mahgister ”It is possible to create… acoustic satisfaction at a low cost…”

Absolutely!

@mahgister

Well, honestly everyone’s experience is different and their objectives different. There is a class of folks that @mrdecibel alludes to who have the money and are listening to their systems, and want the latest great reviewed amp or speakers, and yeah, they are kinda lazy. They want the prestige of the latest Mark Levinson amp. To me, that is not an audiophile… they are really not into the music.

To me, real audiophiles are dedicated to achieving the best sound / music reproduction possible over the long term. So how much system listening / music listening a person appreciates falls unto a continuum. I know I have been seduced somewhat by certain system aspect at times… but my main interest has been music, as most but not audiophiles.

Over my lifetime I have been able to invest larger and larger amounts of money in my systems. Audiophilia is not a pursuit of the lazy or stupid… so, in general they are likely to do well in life, especially over time. I think this is true for most audiophiles. It is not unrealistic to expect their income will rise over the decades. So better systems are in the future.The amount of effort I have put in, has probably been relatively constant at hundreds of hours a year for over five decades. Invested in reading, researching, listening to acoustical music, auditioning systems and equipment, and tweaking my system, even though I only upgraded on average once every seven years.

While it is not the cost of a system that makes the audiophile… it is the dedication and passion to the pursuit that makes the audiophile.

So, if you are looking at a typical audiophile, they will be looking to upgrade their system over decades. The most difficult time for someone new to the pursuit is the first decade… it can be very overwhelming, there are so many ways to get frustrated… sideways moves, trading one benefit and losing three… chasing detail and loosing the musicality.

One of the most eye opening experiences that has happened to me repeatedly during my pursuit of the high end has been to stretch and buy a real piece of audiophile gear… frequently used in the beginning. Real audiophile gear, even if old (well, typically less than 10 years) typically outperforms “the DAC or CD Player of the year” or the new hit, by a large margin. These components have every aspect optimized by design engineers that completely understand the nuances of high fidelity sound.  You know, the 45 pound preamp, or 150 pound amp. Why? Every detail has been meticulously considered and optimized. The manufacturing processes have been carefully crafted, with all sorts of tests and checks to guarantee flawless operation. These products have been perfected over decades of research, addressing all aspects of sound quality, not just a few.

My point is, if you are working to put together a truly exceptional system over the long term, navigation through the complexity and ambiguity can be aided by staying mainstream audiophile… real audiophile gear, when possible.

@arafiq 

👍😊

@glenn747

Off and on throughout my time (50 years) at this pursuit I have tried “Giant Killers” and without exception they proved not to be. Either immediately, or within a short time I would start hearing their shortcomings, after that, I could not unhear it.

@oldracer 

+1

Yes, working with a dealer can really help. For most of my time at this pursuit I have at least worked closely with a dealer. Often, they would not carry all the brands I was interested in. But, they can be invaluable.

The essence of pursuing the highest quality system you can get is navigating through a nearly infinite amount of equipment and possible combinations… only a very few that you could possibly experience… and all this equipment is surrounded be marketing hype, dubious reviews with lots of misinformation from folks with different values.

Navigating this complex space is difficult. Dealers can help. Also, why I made this post.

Unrelated, some folks enjoy churning equipment. Nothing wrong with that… the journey is the objective. Mine has never been that. Mine has always been get to the best well balance system possible and enjoy listening to music for the next decade.

@gowanus 

+1 Much of my equipment was purchased used in the first couple decades of me pursuing the high end. Great way to leverage your funds. 

@yoyoyaya 

Very true. Companies can loose there way… Nakamichi is a great example. Thst is why research is such an important part of the pursuit.

@tony1954 ”…Thanks for the advise to buy expensive, high quality equipment to get better sound.”

Well I didn’t exactly say that, there are very expensive non-mainstream components. But in general, that is true.

It may sound obvious… but if you read extensively in the forum, you will read many posts extolling the superiority of lessor gear. There can be many reasons… the persons current value in sound, inexperience in listening, etc. also, there are lots of folks that simply say the kind of gear I am taking about is just marketing hype, a rip off… etc. 

So as someone trying to get their feet on the ground in this persuit, it can be anything but obvious.

@pdreher 

Also a reasonable strategy. I guess I should have put in that my objective has always been to assemble the highest performing system possible over time. You are correct, for some folks that is not the objective.