2. misc-audio
  3. 1383246560

Objective vs. Placebo relating to system changes

I am continually baffled by the number of people that are convinced that changes to power cords, speaker wires, interconnects, etc. in their systems result is objectively real changes. While I won't go so far as saying that making these changes absolutely doesn't make a difference, I would love to have the resources to challenge people prove it to me and test it with my own ears.

Here's what I would do if time and financial resources were no object (I'm visualizing retired millionaires that are audiophiles).

I would build a listening room where the only components in the listening space were the speakers and the speaker cables coming through opening in the wall where the rest of the system was setup. The idea would be to allow the test subject the opportunity to create their system of choice and then have the opportunity to become very familiar with the system by spending hours listening. Then I would let them know when I was going to start changing different components on them on a very random basis and they should report any changes that they heard so we could link the changes to any potential changes on the other side of the wall.

Here's a short list of things that I'd try:

(1) I would replace the upgraded power cord with the stock unit.
(2) I would install or remove isolation (e.g. Nordost sort kones) devices from a component.
(3) I would replace interconnects with basic quailty products.
(4) I would replace well "broken-in" cables with otherwise identical new ones.

Depending on the results of doing these test slowly over a period of time I would consider swapping out some of the more major components to see how obvious a macro change was if the listener wasn't aware that a change had been made.

I can tell the difference between new and broken in speakers (on ones that I'm familiar with) so I know this break-in is very real and would also not be at all surprised with differences from amplifiers and analog sources being obvious. I'm not as sure about digital sources.

So the question is, what components in your system would you be confident enough to bet, say $1,000, that you could identify that something changes if it was swapped out?

In my system I am sure that I could identify a change in amplification or speakers, but highly doubt that I could do the same with any cables, isolation devices, or digital sources. Maybe I just reduced myself to being a non-audiophile with low-fi gear?
mceljo

Showing 5 responses by zd542

zd542
5,339 posts
 
I have to agree. You really don't want an answer. For whatever reason some people just "don't like" certain aspects of high end audio. Don't ask me why. But they go on a crusade of never ending questions that they know can't be answered or dealt with in any real way.

"I would love to have the resources to challenge people prove it to me and test it with my own ears."

No resources will ever be enough for you. There will always be some essential element that you must have, and that you won't be able to attain, in order to conduct a proper test.

"I would build a listening room where the only components in the listening space were the speakers and the speaker cables coming through opening in the wall where the rest of the system was setup."

Why not just hang a curtain (or something similar) in front of your system so you can't see it. Then you can just have a friend swap out components. It will be a lot cheaper than building a whole new room. This is something you should have the resources to do right now.

"Here's what I would do if time and financial resources were no object (I'm visualizing retired millionaires that are audiophiles)."

Here's another example of why you don't want an answer. You need to be a retired millionaire with lots of time on your hands? Well if that's the case, its another way to get you off the hook. If you're not a retired millionaire audiophile, there's no way you can conduct a proper test. I know cables aren't cheap, but how do you think the rest of us non millionaire audiophiles test cables? The answer is simple. We find a way.

"In my system I am sure that I could identify a change in amplification or speakers, but highly doubt that I could do the same with any cables, isolation devices, or digital sources. Maybe I just reduced myself to being a non-audiophile with low-fi gear?"

Or you are just talking yourself out of a way to get some answers. Why try, its hopeless?!! Just think, if you are reduced to being a non-audiophile with low-fi gear, you have no place to go but up.


zd542
5,339 posts
 
"It seems that many who so desperately profess to hear the "mind blowing" differences are also the ones that desperately try to debunk double blind testing as they know they'll get outed to the nonsense.
Snofun3 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"

For years I've been asking the same question every time I read a quote like this: Where can I read the tests that you are referring to? I can't debunk your tests if you keep guys keep them a secret. Not one person has ever produced a test. I wonder why?
zd542
5,339 posts
 
Mceljo,

This really has nothing to do with science. (I'm just responding to your post's, not everyones.)

"I have Nordost Sort Kones under my SACD player and after several attempts to prove to myself that they did or did not make a difference I left them in and chock up the "improvement" that I convinced myself I heard to being primarily placebo. Even after coming to that conclusion I never took them back for a refund, which I could have done, and have never removed them from my system. What I am convinced about is that if my wife took them out and I couldn't visually tell the difference I'd never know."

Thats a psychological issue, and nothing more. It doesen't have a thing to do with audio. If you spent money on those cones that didn't make a difference but didn't return them, that's just silly. You're supporting the same thing your condemning. If the vendor was willing to take them back, they're standing behind what they sell.

"I'm also convinced myself that I heard a difference between a $7 pair of hardware store speaker wires and a $2,000 pair something fancy, but it certainly wasn't a $1,997 improvement."

Same thing here. It has nothing to do with audio. If you didn't see the value in the cable, you shouldn't have bought it. It doesn't take an engineer to figure that one out.
zd542
5,339 posts
 
Mceljo,

I've read through your posts. You do seem well intentioned in that you are at least willing to consider the possibility of some of these products making a difference. I just see an unwillingness to really get to the heart of the matter on your part. Its not as hard as you make it out to be.

There's an easy way to handle cables. If you can hear a difference that you feel is worth the money, then it makes sense to buy them. But if you are not sure, or if you are thinking the placebo effect may be in play, then it would be foolish to buy something. There's nothing wrong with saying you don't hear a difference. That's just the way it goes.

Here's one piece of advice I can give you when shopping for cables/tweeks. You need to be able to hear the difference consistently. If you feel the need to do complicated tests or go through thearapy on threads like this, don't buy the product. If and when you are able to hear differences between things like cables, you'll know. You won't need to be convinced by others. Its fairly easy to hear. But its something you have to experiance for yourself. No one's going to think your a fool if you don't buy cables because you can't hear a difference. But it is foolish if you do buy them without hearing a difference.
zd542
5,339 posts
 
Mceljo,

I'd really like to know what you think of your new tube amp? Even if you decide that tubes are not for you, its always fun to test a new piece of gear.
More to discover