Blindjim, I'm with you. Tonight I was listening to an old record that I've owned for 35+ years, George Solti conducting Chicago Symph. Orchestra, Beethoven 9th (London ffrr LP), 4th movement. As is often the case with classical music, Beethoven's 9th, especially the 4th movement, is very dynamic with large swings in SPL. When the full chorus and orchestra were going full tilt, the SPL caused my ears to literally distort. All I could hear was a buzzing sound even though I knew the music was clear as a bell.
So my point is that while you are concerned about turning the gain up too high out of concern for blowing your speakers, I am concerned about blowing my ear drums. Although . . . to actually have been there to hear the 9th live with the chorus and orchestra going full tilt must have been one he*l of an experience. I'll just know to bring ear plugs if I can catch the 9th live now. |
Loomis, thanks very much! I always find your posts to be informative and enjoyable, as well.
Best regards,
-- Al |
If 96db avg levels are not sufficient ... either get another amp... or more eff speakers!
Why wonder about where you can break them with the volume knob?
Usually, soft clipping in tube amps sounds like fuzzy audio... distortion in other words, but the clarity of the audio begins to vanish and becomes less distinct. Vague. Soft & fuzzy!
The only other item I can figure out here is that the speakers may be fairly eff, but their imp curves are not quite so friendly.
AS OP said already, these items are not a super great match. Well, then... figure out which is the better item, amp or speakers and keep that. Sell the others.
Or .... get OK with listening at lesser SPLs.
Personally, I"ve never twisted the vol dial above 2 o'clock since I turned 17... and blew my first speaker. Ordinarily, if I have to get above the noon mark on my preamp for pretty good levels, I might have a poor match on my hands and I'm figuring something ain't right already.
the days of twisting that knob all the way over are gone for me. I simply will not do it!
Very good luck developing your outfit. |
Almarg, while admittedly I flunked high school physics and can't always grasp your technical discourse, I always enjoy you're posts--they're unfailingly polite, patient, positive and informative. Thank you for being you. |
Hi Bruce,
My statement about the output waveform abruptly transitioning to an essentially constant level was not worded as completely as it should have been. The "constant level" will persist only until a tiny fraction of a second later, when the input voltage to the amplifier is alternating in the opposite direction and is no longer demanding that the amplifier put out a voltage that is larger than it is capable of. At that point there will be an abrupt transition FROM that constant level back to the normal sine wave or sum of sine waves that constitute the musical note.
That pair of transitions will occur near both the positive-going and negative-going peaks of the waveform. Hence the tops and bottoms of the waveform will be "clipped off," which is why it is called clipping. In between those extremes, the waveform will be as it should. DC is not involved in any of this.
The output transformer will pass whatever spectral components (frequency components) of that clipped waveform are within its bandwidth, its bandwidth in most cases being much wider than the nominally audible range of 20Hz to 20kHz, and encompassing most or all of the extraneous (and potentially damage-causing) treble energy that I referred to.
Best regards,
-- Al |
Hopefully Almarg will answer these questions. If I would, my answers might be in error, and confusing. |
Hi Al and Hifihvn: I had a question about tube amp clipping. In the case where the tube amp uses output trannies, if the signal fed to the primary coils in the output trannies clips, what type of output is induced into the secondaries?
Let me elaborate. Al explained that "[c]lipping means that the positive and negative peaks of what would normally be a smooth sinusoidal waveform will abruptly transition to a flat, essentially constant output level corresponding to the maximum positive and negative voltages that the amp is capable of delivering."
So, if the input to the primary coils transitions to a flat non-alternating voltage, is it possible to induce a voltage in the secondaries?? If the answer is no, I would think that the clipping would be expressed as a distorted output wave form, but not necessarily of a type that would damage speakers. I imagine the distortion would sound terrible though.
Alternatively, if the signal fed into the primary coils wildly oscillates as bursts of positive and negative voltage, wouldn't the output voltage still be limited to some extent by the output trannies? I suppose in this case, while the output trannies wouldn't be passing pure DC to the speakers, the widely oscillating signal fed into the primaries could induce bursts of oscillating DC voltage which perhaps in extreme cases might damage speakers.
I ask because I own a 130 wpc tube amp that drives speakers having a sensitivity 89 db and a nominal impedance of 8 ohms. As you might imagine, my rig can get quite loud without having to push the amp. Hence I am somewhat dubious that I clip the amp because my wife would start screaming bloody murder to turn the da** stereo down way before a clip. She's better than any speaker fuse on the market today. I would say she a hyper fast fuse -- a real live wire.
Thanks for the clarification. |
One thing that may be a problem is the age of your speakers. If the voice coils have been warm in the past from loud volume, they may fail quicker than a new pair. The glue in them could be getting weak just from age also.
On the tube amp clipping issue, tube amps do seem to give a better warning with audible distortion more noticeable quicker than SS amps in my past experience. I have never blown a speaker with a tube amp yet. I use a fuse when running low powered SS amps, because they do catch you off guard quicker than tubes do with distortion in my past experience. Yes I have blown speakers with low powered SS amps, that's the reason for the fuse with them. I don't use a fuse with tube amps. If it would blow(with tube amp), it could cause the output transformers to blow, for not having a speaker load.
In the end, anything you hear that sounds wrong, back the volume down to be safe, and save your equipment. And I also agree with the volume position not meaning much, since it can vary so much in some types of gear, and/or matching of gear. |
No eye-rolling here, Stan, just a good chuckle at your comment :-)
The reason that speakers are commonly damaged by clipping of underpowered amplifiers is essentially as follows: Clipping occurs when the amp is asked to deliver a larger voltage swing at any instant of time than it is capable of delivering. That will usually occur at bass or mid-bass frequencies, where music typically contains its highest energy levels. Clipping means that the positive and negative peaks of what would normally be a smooth sinusoidal waveform will abruptly transition to a flat, essentially constant output level corresponding to the maximum positive and negative voltages that the amp is capable of delivering.
The ABRUPTNESS of those transition points corresponds to high frequency spectral components being present in the output signal that are not present in the original waveform. In other words, the clipped waveform contains excess high frequency energy, which the speaker's crossover will duly route to the tweeter. That can occur even if there is no high frequency energy at all in the original signal, as a result of the clipping of bass frequencies. Tweeters are ordinarily able to handle much less energy than lower frequency drivers, and can therefore be damaged by that excess energy.
Solid state amplifiers will typically clip more abruptly than tube amplifiers, therefore making them more likely to cause that kind of damage. Although if a tube amp is clipped severely enough, the same damage can result.
Severe clipping will be immediately obvious, because the sound will be horribly distorted. The onset of clipping may be characterized by mild distortion or slight popping sounds on musical peaks. I doubt that occasional mild clipping would cause any damage.
The volume control position at which the onset of clipping may occur is, IMO, unpredictable as a practical matter, and will vary very widely depending on the gains and sensitivities of all of the components that are involved, on the output level of the source component, on the power capability of the amplifier, and on the recording.
Best regards,
-- Al |
I am the furthest thing from a tube amp expert but with solid state the problem with clipping is that it eventually will let DC through to your speakers; this use to be called hard clipping. I think that tube amps generally exhibit what was called soft clipping, in which they fail to follow the waveform completely but do not let DC through. I am sure Al will roll his eyes if he reads this; I could have explained it much better 40 years ago when I actually used tube amps. Clipping will usually be accompanied by some type of audible distortion but not in every case. I really don't think you will hurt them, why don't you get a Radio Shack sound level meter and see how loud you are playing them? They are not expensive; if you have a hi tech phone it may have an app that does the same thing. I wouldn't know, I am a product of the crank phone era. |
Clipping is far less of an issue with tube amps This is good news. The only thing that I worry about is that I won't hear the clipping (which could silently damage a pair of classic old speakers). What should I be listening for? Usually maximum gain is around 1 PM on the volume control but if your source is lower in output than usual it may be higher and vice versa. On Pentode I've been wanting to push it further than 1pm. Should I just not? I've had it at about 3 o'clock without any problems that I could hear...but I guess it depends on the recording...? I don't know how to gauge whether I'm at a threshold or not, though. If it starts clipping, will I know it? If this happens will my speakers be ruined? |
Clipping is far less of an issue with tube amps; I would not worry about using triode. If 3 watts give 90db then 6 gives 93db and 12 96. So the triode should give you about 97 db at one meter, actually quite loud in most rooms. Pentode should give over 100. Usually maximum gain is around 1 PM on the volume control but if your source is lower in output than usual it may be higher and vice versa. |
