New TT ideas please

If you like some eye candy you should consider an Oracle Delphi. If a turntable can get you laid, this would be the one.

It is a local (if you can call Canada local) company and you do get timely responses and support. Some of the other companies mentioned I have waited more than a month for a response at times – not where you want to be if you are having problems.

I use a Delphi with a Graham/Koetsu and once setup correctly they sound and perform very well. Setup is not the easiest but it does allow plenty room to tweak and fiddle to get the sound just perfect.

Regards
Paul

Woah there Doug.

+++ [Avoid ] suspended tables (unless very expensive); they sap speed and bass energy, soften dynamics and raise the noise floor by feeding false (non-musical) energy back into the cartridge +++

How does my suspension do all these things?

I had an unsuspended table not to long ago and it was less dynamic, had less bass impact and had a much higher noise floor than my Oracle. (It also cost more than my Oracle).

I suspect the sonic shortcomings were directly related to the fact that each and every micro vibration was dumped straight into the cart, something not happening with my Oracle.

+++ elastic and slippery belts are invariably vulnerable to stylus drag, which slews transient leading edges and robs the music of lifelike speed, snap and energy; even the rotational inertia of my 35 lb. platter is not enough to make belts like those sound acceptable +++

I tried both stretchy and zero compliant belts on a couple of DC motored tables. In both cases (stretchy and non compliant) I could detect the same noticeable drift. It has little to do with the motor to platter coupling, but everything to do with a puny DC motor that cannot cope with stylus drag.

Rotational inertia the most capable way of keep consistent speed without introducing noise. It is most certainly more capable than a puny DC motor trying to chase its tail in a closed loop system.

Regards
Paul

+++ How does my suspension do all these things? By obeying Newton's Third Law of Motion. +++

With all due respect Doug, your response is no more than a cop out. The type of one liner I'd expect in a Micheal Moore documentary.

Newtons third law states “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction” and it acts upon all turntables, whether suspended or not.

Vibration (floor borne + stand) need to be controlled and damped before it gets to the record-cartridge interface. By introducing a suspension you can both control/convert vibrations to be less troublesome frequency AND turn some into heat.

A fine example of this principle is suspended high rise building in earthquake prone zones. By using suspension the energy of the quake is managed so that the building suffers a lot less damaging energy. The energy transferred to the building is at a frequency the building can withstand and tolerate.

On my Oracle, the floor/stand borne energy transmitted to my stylus record interface is converted from a spectrum of audible frequencies to 5 Hz ... way below what my system is going to responding to, and a lot lower than my cart/tonearm resonance. On an unsuspended turntable you'll get vibration throughout the frequency range.

As for the notion that the suspension interferes with the record stylus interface, that is equally bogus. The arm and stylus is a unit, and the suspension does not come into play.

+++ I did mention that a well designed, high mass plinth is needed to damp resonances on a non-suspended table.+++

Yeah, I had one. No low level detail until I put an air bladder suspension under it. Oops yeah, don't suspended turntables do that all in one?

Regards
Paul

Doug This may a double post – I cannot see my prior response.

+++ Sorry for not explaining the Newton reference in my usual mind-numbing detail.+++

Actually you offered zero explanation and you still don't.

+++ It resulted from the suspension allowing plinth movements in reaction to cantilever excursions and arm movements. +++

Okaaaay. A couple of misconceptions here.

Cantilever excursions cannot make the plinth move. The plinth is hard coupled to the stand. In my case, the stand is on a concrete floor. So unless the tonearm has more mass than dear old earth, the plinth 'aint going nowhere'. Need to do some rethinking here Doug.

The LP rests on the platter, not the plinth. Relative movements between the plinth and platter/tonearm assembly are only relevant if they have sufficient energy to upset the tonearm/platter assembly. That would would require something like an hard thump on the rack; something that would send an unsuspended tables arm flying across the record.

Real movement of the platter + tonearm assembly is important. In real conditions, there is absolutely zero movement – the suspension is at rest (equilibrium). When sufficient energy is dump on the table to cause movement, a suspended turntable ensures said movement to be at a frequency that does not do harm. Unsuspended turntables feed all frequencies directly into the platter and tonearm. That will include all audible frequencies AND your tonearm/cart resonant frequency. Not nice.

Relative movement between tonearm and platter is important. Cantilever excursions will dump identical amounts of energy on tonearm platter interface on both suspended and not suspended tables. Any downward movement of the platter (which will be minute) on a suspended table is compensated by LESS upward movement of the tonearm. This is Newtons law. “For every action there is a EQUAL and opposite reaction.” Emphasis on equal.

A non-suspended turntables cantilever excursions effects the tonearm platter interface with EXACTLY as much energy as a suspended table. That is not black magic, but pure science. Due to the higher mass of the platter assembly, the energy dumped into it from a cantilever excursion translates into less movement. (again, no black magic but Newtons second law).

In other words, the energy is better managed by a suspended table. On a non suspended table the tonearm needs to deal with 100% of the energy, and being so much lighter than the platter assembly, will exhibit the maximum movement.

As for your friends comments, I can echo that coming from a unsuspended table to my Oracle. So my response would be to chuckle also – seems not everybody knows how to set up suspension (although I did find it straight forward)

BTW, I still have an unsuspended table. It sounds better on air bladders.

Kind Regards
Paul

Dan, my understanding of plinth is the non suspended 'chassis'. My apologies if I used the term incorrectly.

I do not slate non suspended tables. Suspension plays a very small part in my choice of table. It is all down to implementation. My posts were in response to Doug slating suspended tables and then motivating with one liners.

There seems to be this commonly accepted 'truism' that suspended tables are soft on bass and transients because their suspension allows the platter to 'give' way. That is simply ridiculous considering the effective mass of the platter assembly vs. that of the tonearm cart combination. Any movement caused by a rise or depression in the record groove will be manifested in the tonearm moving up or down. As such, both suspended and non suspended tables suffer this phenomena equally.

+++ If there is sufficient drag on the platter during dynamic passages there actually could be a rotational twisting reaction on the platter/bearing/plinth as well as the drive. +++

Dan, the drag required to cause that would probably cause the stylus to be ripped out of my Koetsu. I can report my Koetsu is still fine.

+++ Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion unless. . . yada, yada +++

Actually they do not. If they could, we would have perpetual movement machines that actually work. I can assure you, my TT is dead still ... always. It doesn't budge. The times I have (accidently) bumped it, it returned to equilibrium in second, with no stylus sliding across the LP.

BTW, I adjust my VTA on the fly every time a play an LP. In fact, I adjust a couple of times per LP and would consider buying an arm w/o this ability. Cannot fathom why you consider it an issue on suspended tables as I most certainly do not have the steadiest hands (or best eyesight) by a long shot.

Regards
Paul