George, unfortunately there is no way for me to get the components outboard of the speakers. The speakers are out in front of the components by about a foot.
jond, behind the pre-amp and CD player the RCA and XLR cables are a bit of a rat's nest. I can straighten them out but not sure if it matters.
The speaker cables are 8 feet long each and the speakers are only about 4 feet on either side of the system. Again, no choice in the matter, so there is one loop of cable on each side. Not ideal I'm sure but the only other solution would be to have them hanging from the wall on a hook or something to prevent the loop.
The speaker s are Aerial Acoustics 7Bs.
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Unfortunately a rack is out of the question, at any price. My wife is already not happy with 'mission control' sitting at one end of the room.
Also, for me, there is no TT in the line up. I have one, don't use it much and it is junk. If I ever get into vinyl then TT set up will be a whole other can of worms. Right now it is just amp, pre-amp and CD player.
As to what to set the components on....I'm confused. Some of the things mentioned above are compliant to varying degrees. Some of them are hard and relatively non-compliant. So I am not clear on the purpose of different materials. If the goal is isolation why would you use something hard?
Anyway, this is what I'm thinking about doing until I get a bigger table:
End table: I'm stuck with it. Could easily have it sitting on spikes. Not sure if this is better or not?
Amp: Leave on floor. I could easily make a low platform with spiked feet but have to wonder why it floating on the carpet is a bad idea. Seems like that would be ideal for isolation.
CD player: Leave it on the end table. Right now that is the only option until my wife warms up to all this. I can play with all sorts of things to put between it and the table surface. I'll start with some cheap sorbothane but I have all sorts of wood that I could make foot blocks out of. I could even make laminated wood blocks (like butcher block).
Pre-amp: It pretty much has to go over the CD player. I'm thinking about making an open wood box/cover that will sit over it and the pre-amp will sit on top. This box can have some sort of feet where it sits on the table and the pre-amp can have some sort of feet where it sits on the box.
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djones, I'm fairly handy with wood. I can't do anything fancy but I build built-in bookshelves with simple lines. There are plans to put built-in shelves where my system sits now but that project is months down the road and will require a re-design to accommodate this system (and for my wife to get used to the idea that it is staying.)
wloeb, that unit does not look bad at all (I was thinking steel and chrome) and it certainly is cheap. I'll let my wife take a look at it and see what she thinks. It is cheap enough that if it gets put aside when I build the built-ins it wouldn't be a huge waste of money. It says it will hold 75 pounds. I'll check the specs on the amp. It feels like it weighs 200 pounds but that is because all the weight is in the front. But I'm guessing 50 pounds.
What puzzles me about a rack is that structurally it is tying everything together which I thought was what you wanted to avoid. I suppose using some sort of isolating feet on each component might help that.
whart, I read that article. And it helps understand what is at stake but it did not seem to clarify whether the goal is isolation or integration. You guys have to admit that using graphite (very hard) in one application and rubber-like materials in another is confusing. I guess experimentation is key here. |
Thanks. I wouldn’t cut the speaker cables anyway. They have a thick outer coating and the ends have thick shrink rubber bonded to the cable end and the spades.
The speakers are out in front of all of this so no direct sound from the speakers should effect the components but I’m sure reflected sound and vibration through the floor does.
In my limited understanding of all this, it seems like isolation is the goal. To that end, it seems that 'disconnecting' the table from the floor would be better than, for instance, spiking it to the floor. It would seem to me that the table (which is quite sturdy) would be best on some sort of compliant, broad feet (even typical furniture floor protectors) that sit on top of the carpet. Again, I have no TT that needs to be stable. |
Shoot, I don't think that Monoprice rack will work. And my wife thought it would be okay for a temporary thing. The amp weighs 94 pounds and it will barely fit on the dimensions of the shelves because it is 19.5 inches front to back.
I'll have to look at some others but doubt I'll find anything cheap that will hold that amp. |
I think I may combine ideas here. I think I might buy the Monoprice rack linked to above ($90) and just make an amp stand and have it sitting down low beside the rack. There are dedicated amp stands for $50 or more but even many of those low end ones aren't rated for 95 pounds and making one would be super easy and it would be nearly invisible under the amp. |
Good advice. We listened to her favorite Louis Armstrong cd tonight. |
There is a Sanus rack that will hold the weight and is large enough. It is $200 and pretty ugly though.
Still thinking about getting creative and seeing what I come up with in my shop. |
Yes. That’s what I mentioned in the last line. The nice thing about these block feet (if they ever happen) is that they could be very versatile. I could even fit a sorbothane disk between the foot and the marble.
Now I wish I had a bench belt sander...........you know, in this attempt to do-it-myself and save money......;-) |
Wolf said:
A block of ice makes an ideal amp stand but unfortunately it melts almost immediately rendering it less than ideal.
You are not thinking like a real audiophile. IF ice is a good platform it would not be that hard to make a small cooling unit to put under the ice block....think tiny skating rink......of course, there would be noise and interference from the compressor........but there are ways around that too if you are really dedicated to getting just the right SQ.... |
Elizabeth, is your concern about wood under and amplifier purely a safety concern or a sound concern?
I've been digging around in my basement and have found a 3x3 inch walnut post. I am planning on cutting it into 3x3 inch cubes to use as feet under the amp (which might still be sitting on carpet with those feet under it) That should get the amp well above the carpet. I will bore out a depression in the center of the block for the amp feet to rest in with the ability to but various materials (like a silicone washer, sorbothane disk of even brass etc) into the depression between the wood and amp feet. This walnut has some checking in it so it will not look perfect but when sanded and finished it should still look beautiful.
I will probably make similar but lower(1x3") feet to put under the CDP and pre-amp as well if I have enough material left.
I also found a 19"x22" 1 inch thick marble slab. I may make similar feet to go under that once I polish it up. Then I could put the amp on that or even my crappy TT. |
djones51 said:
"I guess I am not quite understanding what you're trying to do."
Its complicated. ;-)
First, I'm just playing the game. It seems like everything in the audiophile world needs some sort of special treatment. A lot of it sounds silly to me (but I am only a beginner so who am I to say).
Second, I'm trying to play the game for cheap.
Third, as is my pre-amp is sitting on my CD and everyone says that is no good and I agree, even if it doesn't make a difference to SQ
Fourth, my current set up is ugly. The amp is on the floor on strips of bare rough cut wood.
Fifth, I'm a project guy. I like the challenge of doing something well, cheaply.
So if I can do a few cheap things, which might include buying a low end rack of some sort then I'll piddle around with it. If nothing else, these walnut feet should look nice and elevate the amp off the floor a little more and look pretty doing it. Still working out where to put the pre-amp.
Also, as mentioned above, the big project will be built in shelves which were planned before I got this stuff. Integrating this stuff into those is going to be a design challenge but that's a ways down the road. |
shadow, I was never really worried about the prospect of wood catching on fire. Quite a few heavy duty racks are made of MDF board. This amp has a tremendous heat sink that flows from bottom to top...you can see right through it. The heat sink elements get hot but not so hot you can’t touch them and you do not really feel heat rising off of it at all. It is leaving the amp for sure but it is widely distributed. I wouldn’t want anything flammable touching the heat sink but that would take so real trying to make that happen.
ghost, there is a link to a picture of my system below. Not much to look at. Ignore the crappy TT on the floor and the little speaker on the wall belongs to surround sound system for TV. The distance between the speakers is just under 10’.
Primary goal at this point is getting pre-amp off CD.
Ooops, forgot the link:
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I made these (see picture below) this afternoon. I don't think there is any risk from the heat of the amp since the wood isn't really under the hot parts or heat sinks. It also sits another inch higher over the carpet so it should cool even better. If I get a rack that will hold that monster I can still use the feet under it. It would still help with cooling and look good too. https://images.nikonians.org/galleries/data/3564/IMG_10421.JPG |
djones, the chair can be moved. I had not thought about putting the pre-amp down low, but can do it easily. There is other furniture in the house that I could also use in place of the little table. A simple but very sturdy and heavy oak desk. But it could hold the pre-amp and CD player side by side rather than stacked. PITA getting it downstairs and will require the approval of she-who-must-be-obeyed.
celander, the XLR cable between pre-amp and amp are about six feet long and the RCAs between the CD and pre-amp are about four feet. They are very nice Transparent cables. I don't think I could afford to spend the kind of money to get longer cables of the same quality.
shadow, unfortunately the speakers have nowhere else to go. Even if I could get them on the long wall the listening distance would be too close since the room is 10'x20'. They could be twenty feet apart but listening distance would be less than 8 feet. Fortunately, I think, ceilings are 10' high and the other walls have windows with heavy drapes on them. There is not much echo in the room. I will do some reading but any changes I'll be able to make will be minor. |
boxer12 said:
Makes perfect sense to me. I would keep experimenting with the speaker placement as well. Also love the Bonhoeffer book!
Some sources say the speakers and the listener should make the corners of an equilateral triangle. Moving the chair in a few feet comes close to that.
I have not read the Bonhoeffer biography yet. I have read several of Bonhoeffer's shorter books. I did read the Luther book by the same author and it was very good. Not overly academic. |
I have experimented with pulling them out into the room a little but I have to say I could not tell a huge difference. In fact the bass seems better where they are in the picture. But, I will continue to play around with that. They are a load and with the spikes on them I have to lift them straight up and carry them...about 120 pounds each with nothing to grab onto. Oddly, moving my chair a few feet into the rooms seems to expand the soundstage (I'm probably not saying that right but the sound is more "3D"...I think some people say holographic.) |
So, I've been reading various internet articles about speaker placement. All of them say get the speakers out of the corners because they will be too boomy. However, my first impression of this system in a larger room with the speakers out away from the corners and back wall the bass seemed very thin to me. Some sources even said moving speakers closer to the corners can help this perception.
Right now, being very aware of the problem of the bass being too boomy, it perhaps is a touch. More so with some music than others. Led Zep, maybe a little dullness to the bass, R.E.M. Reckoning, Sting's Soul Cages, pretty good. So, I've got some testing to do.
Some articles said take the grills off. That sounded silly to me and why would makers of expensive speakers put grills on them if it were a problem. The truth is I could hear a difference immediately even as I was pulling them away! |
I’m looking into some of the audio test files, etc. I can move the chair around fairly easily.
I will have to admit that my wife gets more blame than her due. She has been pretty patient with all this and truth be told, at this stage of the hobby (for me) I probably would not be willing to turn the room upside down to accommodate the system even if she didn’t care.
Also, and maybe I’ve said this, this system sounds really good to me and sometimes when I tweak things I can tell there is a difference but would have a hard time telling you if the change was better or not.
I have also made changes and have them sound better listening to one type of music and not as good listening to another type. Whether that is real or not I can’t say..............but I’m not going to be willing to move 120# spiked speakers on carpet when I switch from Zeppeling to Steely Dan. ;-)
whart, I’ll look into the book. Even if there isn’t much I can do or am willing to do, I am still very curious about all this and enjoy learning about it. |
shadowcat, sorry to hear about your wife. We've been married 30 years. We lost my mother-in-law 3 years ago and my dad this month and have seen how hard it is for each of their spouses to deal with that loss. |
I will certainly take this into consideration but locating the components elsewhere is probably going to be a problem even if I had longer cables.
Also, only the cables from the pre-amp to the amp are XLR cables. The cables from the pre-amp to the CD are also Transparent but they are RCA cables.
These Transparent cables are high dollar. Way more than the Canare, even used. Now, I have no idea what that means in terms of actual quality difference and I know there is a never ending debate on the topic of cables. So this question comes to mind: Would moving the amp and CD to a better location in regard to the speakers using presumably lower quality cables provide enough advantage over the higher end cables?
In other words which is better: higher end cables with poor component position or good component position with lesser cables? |
shadowcat, another question. I hear people talking about room treatments and acoustic panels etc. Is the goal to get the room acoustically inert, maybe wrong term, but to minimize any 'echo'?
The whole back wall, behind my listening chair, is fairly heavy curtains. 30 percent of the wall to my left is curtains. The entire floor is carpeted. The wall to my left is rough brick with a window with no curtains and two doors. So there are two large expanses of brick. Would it be beneficial to hang something like Persian style rugs over those expanses of brick?
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kahlenz, I have done just that. The amp is too big and heavy for it so it will stay on the floor on the feet I made for it.
As far as speaker position, I spent a lot of time last night moving them around (and I am sore for the effort). There isn't room to move them way out from the side walls but I found a bit of a sweet spot moving them out a ways from the back wall. Any further than that an bass seemed to fall off more than I wanted.
I also used some of the online speaker tests and they were okay. I had my wife listen to them (her hearing is better than mine) and she confirmed. So from the standpoint of speaker position I feel it is optimized as much as reasonably possible.
wloeb, thanks for the link. I may consider this at a later time but for now I'm probably not going to spend any more on this system. For those who don't remember, I more or less inherited this system for free. I am not an audiophile. I got it to replace a low end system that was failing and out of curiosity. So I have nothing in this and am not in pursuit of perfection. I'm mostly working on the easy and inexpensive ways to maximize what I have in the room that I have. I do appreciate all the excellent advice though. It has made a big difference and I'm becoming an audiophile even though I never had the intent to. |
Thanks shadowcat. The first reflection point on my left is curtains. On my right it is a 6x6' expanse of brick behind a large couch. That would be the main area that would need attention.
My wife is not going to go for panels, even decorative ones. But, as mentioned before, I bet she would allow me to hang one of her smaller oriental rugs there and probably on the other similar sized brick area that is closer to my listening chair. They make rods for hanging rugs so that they hang about an inch from the surface of the wall. Probably not optimum sound deadening but probably not bad either. |
