Chris, I have owned or intimately listened to many of the pre amps you mentioned, however until you have heard the THIS preamp you don't realize how way off base you are in stating that there is no reason to replace one's existing preamp. I own the Criterion and I'll flat out tell you that if you actually still think after listening to it in comparison to most of the above pre amps and still find no reason to replace it..... Congratulations! You're going to save yourself a bunch of money in this hobby! All these pre amps you mention are so far apart in performance scale from best to worst. What was once world class, as in the ML 26S, is way outclassed by a pre such as the BAT REX. If I had a ML 26S I'd sell it immeadiately after hearing the REX. This is just one example. My point is it sounds like you either need to get some updated listening comparisons or you just can't hear the difference. This is a tough hobby to be in if you can't hear the difference. On second thought, it just might make it easier! |
Sorry gang, my last response was from a far earlier post on this topic by Chris who found no reason to sell a preamp for another. I felt compelled to respond,I'm just about year too late! aloha, David. |
Guido, Any opinion on how the Esoteric C-03 would compare tothe Criterion? |
Guido-
Darn you! Darn these threads! After a few months past and I got further from my experience with the capri between the berkeley and my amps, I had convinced myself that my system was all I needed.
Now after reading your comments not only do I remember the capri but I find myself plotting to sell a kidney to finance a criterion... |
Husk, I have not compared C-03 and Criterion in the same system. From 3rd party comments, I have heard that C-03 is extremely musical, transparent, and smooth, but may yield only moderate authority. What I can tell you for a fact is that authority is one of the exceptionally strong points of Criterion.
From an architecture point of view, C-03 is a single ended design, with balanced inputs and outputs recreated using transformers. Transformers are also used in Criterion, which is however completely balanced in-circuit.
C-03 supports a certain amount of input and output level adjustments, but I have the impression that Criterion may be more complete from this point of view, as all Criterion inputs support offsets adjustments. Specifically, Each input can be assigned an independent gain offset in 0.5dB increments, ranging from -10dB to +10db, for a maximum possible offset of 20dB. Offset adjustments can be assigned from both the main control panel and from the remote control transmitter. Any of its inputs can be assigned to Theater bypass. An output gain adjustment is also available on one of the RCA outs with the same granularity and range.
Another interesting feature of Criterion is it has 2 completely separate preamplifier circuits inside. . . one serves all main outputs, while a 2nd one serves the record outputs, and its volume is set separately. The idea is that Criterion can control 2 completely different music environments. . . from separate sources to output in different areas of the house.
And of course, Criterion has dual AC/battery operations, while C-03 is AC only.
The power supply of Criterion is an SMPS with built in passive power factor correction (PFC) and several level of regulation and isolation. I suspect it is the primary cause of the Device's apparent insensitivity to power cords. C-03 I believe may utilize a toroidal power supply. I have not heard reports of power cord insensitivity about C-03.
Of course, until I hear the devices side by side, much of the above is of theoretical value.
Guido |
Hi Jimmy, Criterion is pretty darn addictive. . . but as for putting your used kidney on Audiogon. If your organ is an 8 or a 9, you might be able to find a buyer, but I am concerned that your better half might get very upset and might thence put a legal lean on your remaining kidney (grins!) |
Guido, How many hours do you have on it now? |
I estimate I might have just over 2000 hours of music on Criterion. |
has any one compared the criterion to ayre KCR or K1. |
A direct comparison of AYRE KX-R with Criterion would be very intriguing. Hope I can make it happen some time. G. |
In an ad in the current Absolute Sound, JRDG stated cryptically, that at 2010 CES in a few weeks, they will unveil new products. Anyone care to guess what new stuff we may see from Rowland? |
a new preamp ? .... in price class beetween Capri and Criterion ? |
If past history is a valid indicative of future trends, I speculate that CD players may not be among JRDG 2010 announcements. |
Merry Christmas all.. . hope everyone is having a Very Musical One! No Rowland gear under my virtual Xmas tree. . . but a little Dillon flugelhorn is being manufactured with 'my name on it.' . . hope it gets shipped soon. If anyone were curious. . .
http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/ProductPage/DMB-FL-ROSE.aspx
and the answer is no. . . I have never played brass. . . but it's all DCSTEP's fault. . . he made me fall in love with his flugel last October in denver. . . now I'll have to learn to play it.
Besides who knows. . . if Rowland indeed introduces new products in 2010, I might very well end up succumbing again to audiophrenia. . .
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue46/audiophrenia.htm
and perform some act of uncontrollable audio lust sometimes later in the year.
guido
|
Happy New Year, man, and congratulation for the Dillon Flugelhorn.
I hope you send to us a link for a movie of you playing music. Of course you don't need to be in the Amazon forest or the wonderfull sand of Namibia, but will be a pleasure listen to your music... soon.
Take care, Guidocorona. |
Thank you Brazcole.. . I fear I will not make music but only horrid squeals. . . for many many months. I suspect the music from my system may evolve more rapidly than the music I'll be able to produce on the flugel (grins). |
Hi Guido,
I have heard here in Switzerland that Rowland will present his new preamp at the CES ... ?
do you know something?
Happy new year! |
IMO the Criterion will be for a long time the top of the line. I have heard a lot of preamplifier from others brands. With 1,000 plus hours, the Citerion is the REAL 8º wonder of the modern world ( sorry, Wes Phillips and Ayre).
But, of course, JRDG needs to make money, I mean, they need to sell products that people can afford, so it's very possible a new preamplifier to take the Capri's place. |
not to take Capri's place but to be ocupate the place beetween the Capri and the Criterion |
Claude, I do not have complete information, but it is apparently correct that JRDG has unwrapped a new preamplifier at CES. The device is called Corus (that is correct--Latin spelling). It seems it is very similar to Criterion, except that it lacks DC batteries power operations. The AC power supply is likely the same as that of Criterion, but housed in a machined Aluminum box to fit behind the main chassis or on the floor. . . perhaps similar in shape to the PC-1 rectifier. Most other internals I believe may be the same as criterion, or extremely close to it. I'll know more in the next couple of weeks. US price might be just below $10K. |
Mike and Guido:
I just saw your October posts about the "zeel" 50 Ohm connections and want to pass along the following -
I have a Coherence II preamp, which I note has a stated 50 Ohm output impedance. When I bought my darTZeel amp, Jonathan suggested that I try the 50 Ohm connection in view of the output impedance of the Coherence II. Peter Ledermann (a/k/a Soundsmith), bearing in mind the special PIN arrangement for Rowland XLR connections, reterminated a 50 ohm cable for me with a female XLR on the preamp end, of course retaining the BNC connection for the darT end. I believe it is a 30 ft. run, but it might be 25 ft. The preamp drove the amp, but I thought I might be hearing some distortion. In A/B tests with a 25 ft. run of Jena Symphony, I preferred the Jena and left it in, where it has remained ever since. There was some speculation that the XLR termination may have spoiled the party, but I was told by others that this does not make "electrical sense". It could also be the case that the stated 50 Ohm output impedance of the Coherence II is nominal (no bandwidth is specified), and that variations at other frequencies screwed things up. In any event, it didn't sound obviously wrong, but there was something subtle that was awry, which I perceived as distortion.
Conventional wisdom challenges the very idea of 50 Ohm connections, but Herve swears by it and I have heard a top-flight PD --> darT preamp --> darT amp set-up with 50 Ohm connections and it sounded great (the owner greatly preferred it to his Jena Symphony, incidentally). I do not question that 50 Ohm connections work - it just didn't work given the particulars of my Rowland experiment.
It's hard to say whether modding the preamp to include an actual BNC output would have made a difference, but given the annoyance I experience with such experiments (my preamp to amp cable run traverses an inhospitable crawl space, the area behind my equipment shelves is tight and requires a lot of contorting to make preamp connections, not to mention what would be involved in sending the preamp back to JRDG for modding), I didn't take it any further. |
Raquel, Is your Coherence an II or an I series II? Guido |
It's a II (manufactured February 1999). For those curious about the differences, Rowland's website states:
"Q. What is the difference between Coherence Series I and Series II?
A. The Coherence Series II was released April 1997. The Coherence Series II upgrade involves the redesign of the attenuator amp circuitry. The actual circuit topology is similar; however, all of the circuit components were improved, taking advantage of recently available modern surface mount technology. The output amplifier is a newly developed, dual high-current transimpedance amplifier which handles both phases of the output circuit on one isothermic, copper lead frame power device. This output amplifier and all associated surface mount circuitry allow significant reductions in circuit loop area and path length yielding wider bandwidth, faster setting time, reduced dielectric absorption and greater thermal tracking stability. The overall sonic result is greater clarity during complex music passages and increased resolution of intertransient silence." |
Thank you Raquel, one difference in the output stage between Coherence I and II appears to be--according to the copies of the manuals I have--that the older varsion had an output impedance of 300Ohms unbalanced and 600Ohms balanced, while verion II seems to have 50Ohms regardless. Manuals also say that Coherence outputs are direct coupled. I suspect this may mean that there isn't the transformer-coupling present in later designs, whose function, among other things, is to maintain impedance invariance. Whether this has had any bearing on your results with the coax2XLR adapter experiments, is of course, anyone's guess. |
Guido: Thanks. My Coherence II does feature output (and input) transformers. |
Thank you Raquel. . . looks like the manuals are a little vague in that case. . . they talk about "direct coupling" what ever that means. . . your updated and correct info on the subject is very much appreciated BTW.
Now on Corus, Capri, and Criterion. . . Corus does not replace capri at all. . . Capri remains the JRDG 'entry level' preamplifier at a price point less than $3K. If what I have heard is correct, Corus has much more sophisticated internals in the same class of Criterion, and targets the $10K pricepoint. Criterion remains the JRDG flagship at approx $18K. I'll find out the Criterion vs Corus differences in the next several days and will post here. |
Raquel, I don't known if you will come back in this thread, because Guidocorona had answer your question, for what I could understand with my little English, but I bought my Model 312 only because you and Guidocorona wrote very well stuffs about JRDG amplifiers. And because I also read the Model 312 is so sweet that looks like there are tubes hidden inside.
You said in another thread that the best combination is a solid state preamp with tube amplifier and explain the reasons.
When I said that statement in a Brasilian Audio Message Board, the guys said I was wrong and the best combination is the opposite, I mean, a tube preamp with a solid state amplifier. Because severals of them have the Reference 3 or a BAT preamp. As I trust in you because you post many very tech messages, I reply that they were wrong and I transfer your statement from Audiogon (without putting your name) as a review from one of the best reviwer in Audiogon. They still said the reviwer was wrong.
First, is very nice to known that you have a Coherence, because I want to keep my Criterion a lot of years.
And, if it doesn't bother you, could you tell if you still prefer a SS preamp with a tube amp or you change your mind. |
Hi Guido,
did /will you have the oportunity to compare the Criterion to an FM Acoustics preamp like the 255 for example ?
This would be very interesting!
Kind regards |
Braz, we could argue the fine points of which technology best couples what other technology until we turn blue in the face. . . In reality it does not matter too much at all. . . what matters are only your ears.. . and the particular combination of a real preamplifier with an equally real amplifier and how you react emotionally to them. . . The technology they use is purely incidental, and even the mutual impedance compatibility does not tell the whole story. Only your heart can. G. |
The technology they use is purely incidental...
That's it.
Well done, Guido. |
Brazcole:
I just sent you an e-mail in Portuguese.
Abracos, |
I got it, Raquel.
Thanks very much. Take care and happy 2010. |
Photos of the Corus can be seen here:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3117378&id=72837407592
photos of the new monster amplifier here:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3117378&id=72837407592#/photo.php?pid=3117377&id=72837407592&fbid=258312222592 |
Clavil, the monster amp is called 925. I still do not know too much about it. . . a 4-chassis design, operating in class A/B, probably with a switch mode power supply and PFC rectification, probable power rating between 500W and 550W per channel. Price between $45K and $50K.
There is also a new 625 stereo amp: once again, my information is incomplete and not definite: single chassis, 330 to 350 Watts per channel, SMPS + PFC. Listed between $12000 and $13000.
I'll add more info as I learn it. G. |
curious, Jeff Rowland suffering the critics or better said the absence of critics from the american press, because going class D (and making miracle with it) is steping back ?
I am surprised |
the 625 - 350 watt stereo - $12500
the 925 - 550 watt mono - $45-50000 pr
|
Claude. . . spoke to JRDG marketing director this morning.. . unless things change, prices are as follows:
Corus preamplifier: $10,800;
625 stereo: $12,500;
925 mono: $48,000 a pair.
Note that while 625 and 925 are class A/B, 301 remains a top level current class D product at $29,500. Furthermore, it is my understanding that class D will continue to be used for integrated amps and other amplifiers up to 500 series included.
I have heard that the new amps are expected to be fairly energy efficient and not run hot to the touch.
Late March deliveries for the amps, and perhaps earlier than that for Corus.
Still awaiting firm specs and pics.
G. |
my dealer has already ordered the Corus and the 625. I am very curious to compare them to the Capri and especially the 625 to the 501 and 312.
"All the truth" beetween Class D & Class AB ;-) ? |
Clavil, one of the Audiogon's master, your post is interesting. I want to keep my Criterion "forever", but I could change my 312 for a JRDG Class AB, so I'm going to wait for your and Guido review from the 625.
If I remember or I read well, you wrote in another post the reasons of why JRDG starts once again to make Class AB amplifiers. If they realise Class AB is really better than Class D. IMO the reasons for those new Class AB devices is MONEY, because the impact for the market with Jeff Rowland's Class AB is huge, they will sell many more units than with another and another Class D amplifier.
For instance, you have already ordered the 625.
I'm going to wait ansious for your review.
Thanks, man. |
Claude, the interesting comparison will be between 312 and 625. . . 501 uses a generally more basic design without PFC in the front end, and its sound lacks the subtlety of 312. If 625 exceeds the music performance of 312 it will be a very special amp indeed. One detail I do not have yet is the current rating of 625 and 925.
Regarding Corus, the comparison with Capri should be a very interesting one.. . if my scant info is correct, Corus should sound very similar to Criterion, which is IMO significantly more refined than Capri.
Has your dealer told you when he should be receiving his units?
Guido |
Braz, I will definitely post any listening observations about the new JRDG amps when I get my hands on one. . . we'll see if it is a 625 or a 925. Guido |
That's fine, because the electronic signature from the 625 or the 925 wil be, more or less, the same signature.
Let's do it, Guido. |
Just dredged up some more info. . .
Corus is companion product of 625.
625 is not exactly a replacement for 312. The 312 amp -- which is no longer in production -- will eventually be replaced by a class A/B stereo amp called 825, for which there is no delivery date yet.
The current Criterion preamplifier is intended as a companion piece for the 925 and the future 825.
|
Guido,
my dealer guesses he will get the Corus in spring and the 625 "later".
I am surprised to read that the 312 is "no longer in production" ... ?
it seems really that Jeff Rowland is changing strategy and going bach to class AB amplifiers. Is this now because there are really better or just because class D was never really accepted by High End Audiophiles ?
BTW I have the 501 + 2 PFC1 with special cabling un beetween ... I still had no time to compare it to the 312.
A nice day to everybody |
I talked to Kelly at JRDG yesterday. No delivery dates have been established and output power is not even certain as yet. The units on display at CES lit up but were not powered. We are getting ahead of ourselves. |
Macro, The units at CES were powered, but not connected in system. FCS is still tentative. Power rating is still undergoing finalization. I source info from JRDG.
Claude, 312 is certainly a marvellous product, but it is now almost 4 years old. . . and nothing is static in our domain. We'll see what the new products do for living, regardless of underlying class of operation. G. |
Guido - I was not at the show and have not seen any of these new items. Kelly told me the units at the show were not active. The dash lit up but the motor would not start. She attends every show, and this one in particular, as it was Rowland's 25th anniversary at CES. Kelly has been with him for 21 years and I've known her the whole time.
I don't mean to contradict you but my source is pretty good too. Maybe she wasn't supposed to tell me that -- or I wasn't supposed to tell you. |
Thank you Macro, your source is impeccable. . . I suspect this is just a matter of subtly different wording. . . not terribly important. . . truth is we haven't heard these devices yet. . . can't wait to find out how they sound. |
Well Guido, I asked about the sound wondering if it would be more like the Models 6 and 8 than the recent ICE equipped pieces. That would be a question for Jeff and he isn't available just now. So we shall all be called upon to exercise the virtue of patience. Given the price of these things, I may need quite a bit more than patience. It will take a minor miracle or a major irresponsible charge. |
If they exceed the music performance of JRDG 312, currently my favorite amplifier regardless of underlying technology, I will be extremely impressed. |
