I've done additional testing both with and without the G-03x and the master clock in the D-02 yields at least equal results to having the extra OCXO standalone clock (G-03X) in the system. I currently have pulled the G-03X out of the circuit and will now post it with the P-03U and D-03 when I offer them.
I've got the D-02 set to output a master word clock out at 512x44.1 (22.5792 MHz) to allow the full range of upconversion rates and DSD playback with the P-02 slaved to the D-02's master clock. Great results,...here is the current config;
- up-conversion PCM->4Fs (176.4) on P-02
- digital filter set to On (P-02)
- P-02 set to output ESL3 protocol
- up sampling set to 176.4 (D-02), ELS3 *dual XLR inputs", this is 48bit output!!!
- digital filter set to FIR1 (D-02)
- clock frequency 22.5792MHz master clock output from D-02, P-02 clocked to D-02 |
Congrats. I play it with up sampling at ESL3 at transport, so 48/176.4. At DAC I leave up convert to ORG. In my case I do not use digital filters but have to say have not really tired extensively any of them.
Clock frequency as you, but with the G01. I think you are doing well by selling the G03. In my opinion you will get better results using the D02 alone. At some point in the future do try the G01.
Congrats |
Hi Zephyr, may I suggest to give S_dly2 a spin. On K-01 at least, I found it to be more extended than S_dly1, with greater staging/imaging, and equally musical.
G. |
Guido: Great to hear from you as always! I hope life and audio are treating you well! I have tried S_DLY1 and briefly S_DLY2; perhaps it's the fact I have alot of burn in to do on these permutations of settings the P-02 is nearly brand new and the D-02 has had about 1 good year of use.
What overall combination of settings beyond filter S_DLY2 did you find best? For example, are you using PCM->4fs or 8fs (or DSD)? Would you suggest I use no filter on the P-02 and S_DLY2 on the DAC?
Did you find every filter had to be burnt in separately or is there one common circuit path that does not necessitate the individual filters each need to receive 350+ hours?
Thanks or the help....I can tell this will be an even longer road to finding the optimum setting than the 03 generation; and then there's the USB input options,.....ah,...much more burn-in there too :-)
If anyone's interested in a P03U, D03 and G-03X package, I posted mine this morning and will love to find them a good home... |
Hey Zephyr, Congrats on the D-02/P-02 combo, you are in for treat, but you know that already. I was thinking of you this week, I sold my Dynaudio Temptations and set my Legacy Focus 20/20's with the main system until I make a decision on what my new speakers will be. Must say the Legacy's sound terrific with the Esoterics!
Anyway, hope this thread grows some legs again, look forward to hearing about your impressions of the D-02/P-02's.
And great to see Eelii again, talk to you guys later... Go Patriots, time for some football. |
Thank you...I'm sure I am and a hell of a good dose of burn-in on multiple paths and testing/re-testing/etc....! Let's keep this thread alive for sure...enjoy the game and happy llstening!!! |
Good to see you all again. Zephyr you sure are positioned to get great music time ahead. And when you get use to it, a few months in the future, do consider the clock.
I myself have the 02s listed for selling. Let's see if I can also get a good home for them. There are a couple listed lately. I would upgrade to the 01s, although the 02s are so good, that I think if I don't sell them I will hold on to them for a while still. |
Zephyr saw your add. Very well elaborated. Mine is a piece of c*** in comparation. Maybe I should edit.... ;-) |
Hi Zephyr, my experience on K-01 first edition was that each filter variant required its own break in time of about 500 hours. For my own preferences, S_dly2 met the right balance of resolution and musicality.... S_dly1 was more tube-like, while DSD upsampling resulted in a highly resolving and snappy, but also "nervous", rendering that resulted in an edge-of-seat experience that I was not too fond of. FIR filters seemed to yield a bit of a two-dimensional stage with a touch of synthetic in their sound signature. |
Thank you Guido...I will give it a try and burn it in for at least 2 weeks before judging. The big question is do you disable the digital filter on the P-02 as they could overlap in function and what up-conversion on the P-02 do you have set? I have heard thus far that 48-bit ESL3 4fs (to 176.4...) seems to be the best though I have not spent a ton of time with PCM-DSD as I found was the best on my P-03U/D-03. What is the complete set of options that you utilize across both transport and DAC? Thanks!
Eelii008: Thanks....don't know if it will help it move any faster though I am hoping! I'm really looking forward to the next few years with this rig and beyond! |
Hi Zephyr, I have no experience on the combo units at all... My findings are based on K01 only.... By logic only I imagine that if you set filters on D-02, no filters should be set on P-02... But it might be best for you to consult Integra/Esoteric tech support on this.
On K-01 I much prefered the resolution, spatiality and the overall musicality of 4X upsampling over 2X... And I preferred 2X over no upsampling at all. |
Zephyr if you do check with esoteric let us know what they say. I have also asked that question myself many times. You can do the up conversion either at P02 or D02. Or you can do it at both. I do it only at the P02 level and leave the D02 as ORG. Do not think doing it twice makes sense. Although it could be better to do it at the DAC. As for filter I use none, but if I decided to try some I would be also interested to know if better at transport of DAC.
Also check out the XLR gain at 0 or + 6db. It does change the sound. |
It's hard to believe these components are entering there fourth year. With Esoteric releasing the K-01X the D-02/P-02 combo may become somewhat scarce, with everyone opting for the K-01x. Esoteric has told me that there is no upgrade planned for the D-02 for DSD over USB, however, it is not ruled out. I think that will make the D-02 a bit of a novelty, although still a better sounding set up than all but perhaps the new D-1/P-1 Grandioso. The D-02 owners hopefully can stick together and help each other get the most out of this awesome combo... settings, preferences, cables, footers, etc. We are probably disc spinners, mostly SACDs, although the D-02 is great with computer and servers too, but without DSD, everyone is over looking these babies. Anyway hope to hear a lot of sharing info and swapping experiences, let's keep this thread rockin'. |
Hey Zephyr, are you still using Legacy Focus SE's ? I have my Legacy's set-up with the main system and they sound great. No better bass for the money, smooth, coherent, powerful and forceful! I can feel the thump right in the center of my chest. The D-02/P-02 brings out the best in everything I set them up with. Just wondering, and if you are, I'm sure you are presently surprised. |
Thank you all! I don't think setting PCM->4fs (or other setting) on the P-02 and also indicating this on the D-02 results in double-up on the up-conversion, more like telling the D-02 what's coming in with the exception setting PCM->DSD on the D-02. I'll have to chase this down with Esoteric to be certain. I would think that I should not set a filter on the P-02 and then have it on the D-02 any longer but I'll track that down with them as well. I'll report back what I find out and what I hear.
Colekat: I moved to the Legacy AERIS a while ago and am extremely happy with what the new models bring. I still appreciate all the Legacy SE brought to the table; they were fantastic speakers. The AERIS however are amazing and I'm staying with them for quite some time. The new "V" sounds and looks amazing but I don't know if I can get it into the house, and if so, don't think I can get them past the boss for approval :-) they are massive and beautiful to be certain. |
Hey Zephyr, I hear you, my wife was glad to see me sell some of the old stuff off. Need to be quick with resale, but the D-02/ P-02 are not coming down in value, still pretty strong, and like I say, they are still the best alternative to the D-1/P-1 Grandioso.
As for the Legacy Aeris, I am thinking of auditioning them, I have heard a lot of good things about them.... Great mid-bass and midrange, and of course the signature deep bass. Glad to hear you like your set up, since it would be similar to me if I go that way. |
Zephyr, Scott Sefton is the contact guy for Esoteric info. I have his e-mail and will pm it to you if you want, let me know!
Tom |
Thanks...I have Cedric M.'s contact info and can share that in return; he is now the one and only Tech Support guy for Onkyo/Integra that tends to Esoteric. He's a great guy but I sense he is overloaded. Ping me on in-mail and I'll send you his email address and gladly take Scott's in return. I'd love to hit the lottery and go with the P1/D1 however I remember Gurvey telling me prior to the P02/D02 being released that something 'special' was coming and like the 03 generation at the time, that unless you can justify the extra expense for the 01s fully decked out to get that last .001%, that the step down would NOT disappoint in the least, particularly for SACD (he was right then, and I think he's right even after his departure on this point). He was actually the one who recommended checking out the G-03X to fill the gap after I sold off my G-0s clock; he told me that to his ears, the upgraded OCXO clock brought the right level of precision while still preserving musicality, etc....I love it when some of these manufacturers get candid and 'open the kimono' a bit to their own thoughts on the stretch-expense factor. Reminds me of a key conversion with Tom Maker from Edge; I was at a point where I could have gone with the NL Signature Monos (more pricey than what i have) but Tom told me he felt, his best and most current work was in the NL 12.1s and unless I was fixated on monos, that I should save some money and go with the NL 12.1s. When something like that happens, that persons gains a huge amount of respect in my book. Anyone willing to leave a good amount of $$$ on the table (particularly when the purchase is direct) by sharing an opinion like this is usually, if not 100% of the time, giving the best advice you can get.... |
On the AERIS, I spent a year tearing my brain apart over making the change from the purest analog chain (with digital source) I could put together at the time and the moving to a config that would insert an A-to-D-to-A processor into the circuit as well as demanding overall 3 more power cords and another set of interconnects. I did a lot of listening and commenting for AERIS prior to getting them on quite a few occasions, all at Legacy with Bill while he was going through the various post-intro changes that resulted in the final and current shipping config (ultimately many changes in the bass/sub-bass section were introduced, the passive radiator, upgrade in amount of amplification in each tower, etc...). I finally got past the whole "bringing new complexity to the rig" issue and am so glad that I did. I loved the FocusSE's, they punch far above their weight-class as the boxing term goes but what the AERIS bring in terms of increased presence and many other things with that open-air top-end is something special to say the least. No looking back now, the bar has definitely been raised. All this said knowing that I have not even tweaked the speaker with the XILICA proc; it's still using the "AERIS_Normal" curves that Bill ships with the speaker. I have a mic-kit, mic-preamp, etc...all ready to go. Next step now that the 02s are in, is the mic the system and work with Bill/team to get custom curves for my room and setup. FUN!!!
Footnote: The Kimber Y-cables that come with the AERIS are of extremely good quality; the Y cable is necessary to split the 2-channels into 2x2 so that there is a duplicate of both the L and R input analog signal. I did see a SUBSTANTIAL up-tick in performance, musicality, etc...by going with a custom-built Y-cable (thanks to David Elrod) to match my existing interconnects; it's something I would suggest to anyone who owns AERIS to match your interconnects.
As as aside, Bill told me he uses 4 instead of 2 inputs on the XILICA to allow him the greatest degrees of freedom for designing the curves on the AERIS (time, frequency-related, changes, etc...can be made separately on L and R input copies independent of each other, the XILICA then puts the next effect together for L and R and sends it out to the speakers. I heard it both ways (2 inputs versus 4 to the proc) and what is possible with duplicated inputs and separate tweaking on each is impressive.... |
Hi Tom, what is Scott Sefton's function/position at Integra? |
He was given the responsibilities of Tim Crable, as he retired. He told me that corporate was grooming his official fit in the there new program, but to contact him with anything I needed. I had an issue with my G-01 clock, it would not lock. The music would play, but the clock wouldn't stabilize. So after a lot of back and forth, and a call to the East Coast director of operations for Integra, they sent me a brand new clock, which was the right thing to do. After inserting the clock into the system I couldn't critically listen without it. Scott was a big part of the transaction. |
Hi Tom, This is good to know... does this mean that Scott is Esoteric Sales/Marketing/Operations manager for Esoteric at Integra? |
All: Thank you for the help and advice from the K series and the 02; I've done a LOT of testing of permutations and track by track compare over the last couple of days with the various filter and upconversion & protocol options for PCM on the P02/D02 and this is where I think I'll stay for a while as it gives;
- the biggest, densest and deepest soundstage
- best imaging in all 3 dimensions for the 'crucible recordings' I've used for testing for years
- the deepest, most accurate bass without over-bloom/muddiness
- the most pleasing and roundest notes, best transients and overall musical experience thus far
Caveat: I've stayed away from PCM->DSD on purpose for now. Will test that later after I burn in pure DSD for SACD once the PCM circuits hit 500 hours each. Then we're on to more testing and then even more with the high-throughput USB options; should be done about this time next year at 500 hours per permutation !
Here's the config;
- up-conversion PCM->4Fs (176.4) on P-02, 48-bit ESL3 seems to be the silver bullet!
- digital filter set to On (P-02), resulted in slightly tighter bass, thought FIR on the transport and anything on the DAC would redundant but it really seems to do wonders so filter on P-02 is back on!
- P-02 set to output ESL3 protocol, 24-bit 352.8 is impressive but 48-bit ESL3 176.4 is the best thus far (note above,...skipping test of DSD for now). D-02 set to receive ELS3/176.4 so 48-bit input on dual AES
- up sampling set to 176.4 (D-02), ELS3 *dual XLR inputs", this is 48bit output!!!
- digital filter set to S_DLY2 (D-02), no ringing, all the right elements as highlighted in my opening passage, amazing filter, at least on this system
- clock frequency 22.5792MHz master clock output from D-02, P-02 clocked to D-02, still don't miss the G-03 given clocking improvements in D-02. 22.5792Mhz sounds better than 176.4, the 512x over 44.1 seems to really round things out nicely with the right combination of precision and musicality...
That's all for now, let the burn-in continue :-) !!! |
Hy Zephyr, very interesting that your findings on filter selection for D02 are consistent with my preference on K-01... May I ask how S_DLY2 and S_DLY1 differ on D-02?
Saluti, G. |
Scott Seftons official title at the time was marketing specialist, and his boss and truly the force that makes things move is Paul Wasek, national marketing manager. There emails are scott.sefton@us.onkyo.com and paul.wasek@us.onkyo.com, they were both very helpful with all things Esoteric back in August. |
Guido: I had a bit of ringing DLY1 but it was minor; major diffs were the more accurate and deeper soundstage (particularly depth here) that DLY2 gave. Also thought overall notes and colors were rounder and fuller without bass being bloated and while keep the very nice transients and "good stuff" in the upper frequencies. The combination of FIR on the P-02 with S_DLY2 on the D-02 seems to be the magic touch at least for now; I'm sure how I'm clocking figures in as well..... |
Excellent info Tom... Thank you so much! G. |
Guido, your welcome, they are good guys ! Tom |
FYI...learned yesterday that the driver for MacOSX is not yet up to working with v10.10 (Yosemite) of the O/S. Esoteric informed me that for now, we should utilize the non-async (HS-1) mode for USB input....they will notify as soon as the USB chipset vendor remedies this issue with the driver. Normal non-async playback should work as before with iTunes, JRiver, etc....I think this implies we have to hold off using HRAudioPlayer for now until the USB driver underlying that player is fixed. |
Hi Guys, I've been following all the talk about "settings", and it's been so long, I had to check the DAC. As for the transport, I have always favored 24/356.8, or 8x's, and the DAC at 4x's. Filters are "FIR" and S Dly 2.
But, that was with the Dynaudio Temptations, and now I have the Legacy's in place, much more bottom end and ribbon tweeter, the sound may benefit from a different set-up. So, time for some changes? We shall see. |
i had tried setting the transport to 8fs while the DAC is at 4fs and I don't think that is possible; the DAC is pushed into 24/3xx as soon as the disc is loaded and is determined to be PCM. I'll double-check my settings here again.....S_DLY2 for D-02 and FIR (DF=ON) on the P-02 as a combo for filter is still sounding amazing here with the Legacy AERIS and the rest of my setup. It's a keeper! |
Zephyr, I am strongly leaning to an audition of those speakers, you make them sound good all the way from your house! |
Trust me...they are. The more I throw at them, the more they return. At just under $20K they are one of the, top value/sound for the money in this market as far as I've heard. The new "V" is up the scale from them and sounds amazing. The new WhisperXD is also amazing in its own rite. You have to check them out; I'm sure you'll fall in love with speakers at least once, possibly more!
BTW.....over a week in on burn-in of the combination above anchored on S_DLY2; it's a definite keeper!!! Next stop after this is pure SACD/DSD burn-in and then some USB port fun...what a process, this will definitely be a labor of love to explore this new P/D combo! |
Here's a review of the Esoteric Grandioso to salivate over and over and over.....
http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/545-esoteric-grandioso-p1-sacd-cd-transport-grandioso-d1-mono-digital-to-analog-converters-and-g-01-master-clock-generator |
Yeah...that review keeps me up at night! Oh, to win the lottery!!! |
Interesting Esoteric Grandioso review.
Unfortunately, I missed any indication of break-in process and related behavior... Hence we cannot tell if the devices were mature or instead they would have benefited from more "grinding of gravel" to
achieve peak performance.
I would have liked to read a more detailed discussion of audible differences among filters and upsampling rates. I venture to guess -- purely extrapolating from my experience with the K-01 single box -- that S-Dly2 and 8X upsampling might have been my prefered setting. |
Guido,
You have been a very good friend but sometimes we just need to let go and move on.... :)
Best regards. J. |
Hi Jon, trust me... I am in fact very much salivating about Grandioso. Yet, in a major case of sour grapes, not there being a single chance in H**l of me ever getting approval from SWMBO to acquire one, I found myself compelled to "Pick bones in to-fo"... If not in the Grandioso, at least in the review *grins!*
Still friends?
G. |
Of course, Guido! Lol.
Cheers! J. |
Hey Guys, Just a point to look at. Howard is an Esoteric guy .... Look at the associated accessories. Now, he's a good guy and a good reviewer, but, I'm still waiting for a review from someone who is not so Esotreric bias. I would like to here from someone who is switching from EMM, or Rieymo, or a direct comparison to the Vivaldi. Isn't that the direct competition to the Grandioso. There is an audiophile on another forum with both set-ups in his system right now, I'm anxious to hear his opinion! Or better yet, from someone comparing the D-02 stack to the Grandioso stack, how difference are we talking, I find it hard to believe it is a huge difference, based on the technology is so similar, how much better are we talking here. |
I've seen the other guy pics. Is digital porno what he has there, really. Incredible.
I am willing to do the change if U can sell my 02s. I think the difference will be there. However not in a rush since the 02s sound really great. So if I can sell it at a reasonable price I will go ahead. If not, I will live happily with the 02s for sure. |
Eelii08, what is the URL to the "other guy" that you mentioned?
G. |
http://www.audioaficionado.org/esoteric/28997-esoteric-grandioso-p1-d1-3.html
It is in page one I think. Lovely. |
Eelii08,
Awesome pic! High end audio porn indeed.
Thanks for the link. |
Apologies for coming in late and changing the topic...but there's a lot of knowledge about Esoteric products in this thread, so I figure this is a good place to askÂ
Does any one have experience of two different configurations of the D-03?
After buying a P-03 in 2013 (new, but manufactured in 2010), and finding my DAC wasn't fully compatible with it, I read some reviews, ascertained the specs and had my dealer order in a D-03.
Thing is, the D-03 manual from the Esoteric website, the one I used to make the purchase decision specifies analogue output level as:
2.2 V @ 1kHz into 10 kOhmsÂRCAs
4.4 V @ 1 kHz into 10 kOhmsÂXLRs
A dealer (Sora Sound) was kind enough to actually measure the D-03 he had on hand and confirmed these specs. HIs unit actually measured higher: 2.42 V and 4.84 V.
But the printed manual that came with my unit has very different specs:
2.1 V @ 1kHz into 10 kOhmsÂRCAs
2.1 V @ 1 kHz into 10 kOhmsÂXLRs
And this may explain my problem.
I greatly enjoy the quality of the C-03x-P-03-D-03 combo, but, with the D-03 in the chain, my system never has enough gain. Beautiful, but anemic. it's
Yet there's no problem with any of the other four DACs I have on hand.
So I'm beginning to think I've got the version of the D-03 in which the balanced outputs have no more voltage output than the single-ended ones.
I've also noticed, when checking the specs of current models on the Esoteric website, that in some models of DACs and players, the XLR analogue outputs double the voltage of the RCA outputs, while in others the two are the same.
So...if anyone knows anything about low and high output versions of the D-03, please let me know.
TIA, Joel. |
Might analog output voltage be a user selectable seting? Have you tried to poke around the settings menu? G. |
Guido is probably right as usual.
I would like to share my experience with my Esoteric K-01 and I believe it applies to the D-03 too. If you go to settings, and toggle through to "Analog Output" you have a choice of 0dB or +6dB. Try the +6dB and see if this improves things. If not, you are better off with a high quality analog preamp. I have found the +6 dB setting changes the sound. Although you get more gain, but strangely enough, as the volume increases, the sound gets congested or constricted, and the soundstage collapses. So, I got a good analog preamp and everything just falls into place very nicely after that.
Cheers! J. |
Hey Dr joe, What are you using for cables? Are you using the balanced outputs? Something doesn't sound right, the C-03x should be a perfect match for that combo! |
On page 16 of the C-03X manual, there is a section on adjusting the output level from -18 to +18dB in 0.5dB increments. |
I don't know which version of the D-03 I have but since it came out in late 2006/early 2007, I think it is the one with higher voltages on the XLR outputs.
Regardless of anything else, as with all Esoteric gear I've owned, the XLR path sounds the best with absolute certainty. Furthermore, dual AES is definitely the way to go versus RCA, digital link or single XLR.
I had my D-03 set to 0db for its output modification level BUT per Mark Gurvey's advice, set my C-03 preamp to +12db which he told me the guys in Japan had found was an optimal setting. This combination worked very well for me and I've still got the C-03 configured this way with my D-02 with great results... |
