Hey Pharma, I could not agree more, the clock with the D-02/P-02 is a huge step up in presence and soundstage. The music is far more natural with the clock! It has helped with cables too, seems now that I have the clock, the effect from cables is less noticable. I have added the C-02 Preamp also, and that has had a noticable improvement , again the music moves smoother and the overall presentation is very r"ealistic. I am using Snake River Audio Signature cabling and Power Cords, and Boomslang digital clock and word cables. With the mark up on cables, I was using WireWorld Platinum Eclipse, it is refreshing to find a cable source that isn't emptying the bank account to source this 4 box front end.
Mrry Christmas to everyone and Happy Listening |
Hey Eelii, Where have you been ? Hows the Power cords? |
How are the Snake River Audio and Boomslang cables ? I have never heard them. Did you compare them with any cables ? Also most people including me are sometimes complaining or noticing that the p02/d02 is a bit forward compared to older Esoteric products and some competitors (Accuphase, Soulution). Did any of these cables change this ? Some people recommend Odin or Valhalla 2 AC cables to make the overall sound more cohesive and flowing with ease. |
Pharma, The Snake River cables are affordable High End. The Signature Series are Silver on Copper, all hand made with ultra high end connectors all hand Terminated with Silver fill solder. I was using Wireworld Platinum Eclipse Series 7 ICs with Shunyata ZiTron PCs . First I changed the 75 ohm connector to my server. I liked it and moved to Signature series ICs DAC to Preamp. Now I have them between the DAC and Transport , and all clock connections.
They are the best affordable cables I have used, a real sleeper. I think cables are the biggest challenge, and though these are a bit dark and tilt the treble back a little, they are certainly worth the price of admission and then some! Look at the website, and if you have questions, you can talk to the owner, he will make whatever you need! |
Colekat: I own the C-03 preamp for several years now and love it; what are the essential differences between the C-03 and C-02 (other than the 2nd set of XLR outputs which is a nice touch; the C-03 allows multiple simultaneous outputs but has 2 RCA and 1 XLR which I could never understand :-) )? Thanks! |
Colekat: Thanks.
I am using Acrolink/Esoteric 6300 xlr. between transport and dac. I am using another 6300 between dac and preampand sometimes a Van Den Hul 3T The Mountain which is less detailed but warmer and more cohesive that works better with lesser recordings. I will listen to Valhalla 2 and some others as well. I am considering Acoustic Revive for aes/ebu connection instead of 6300.
Which BNC cables are you using for the clock ? |
Pharma, I'm using the WireWorld Platinum Eclipse 7s clock and AES/EBU, and also analogs to the C-02. I also switch them out and use the Snake River cables to get a warmer presentation, which definately benefits CDs. The WWs are better cables for deliniating sounds, but the Snake River cables are really growing on me. They are such a good deal in a complete rip off industry, I have to really let myself enjoy them. If I paid more, it would be easier to explain why they sound so damn good.
I've been auditioning Synergistic Research Element Power cords with the Powercell 10 mk3 . First time I've had active cabling in my system. It is very holographic, three dimensional. At first it is great, but over time I've had listening sessions when it is intense, not in a bad way, just intense. I haven't decided on weather or not I'm going to make the switch. |
Hey Zephyr, I've tried to drop you an e-mail, but I either do not know how to use the service or it won't let me, probably the former, LOL!
The C-02 has better isolation of circuits and it has two outputs both single ended and balanced. It also has 4 transformers, as the C-03x has 2 , and there is an upgrade for a phono input.
It is a great sounding preamp and I am glad I went with the Esoteric over the Ayre or the EMM. I believe in synergy between products, though I would love to hear what tubes could do to mellow the sound a bit, just to hear what it could do, overall I love the detail and speed of good Solid State. |
I share your love of solid state and have found that once my (full) C-03 crossed the 500-750 hour mark that it opened up considerably and after I moved up to an Elrod Statement Gold Gen2 PC and a Elrod Gen2 Statement Gold XLR Balanced set of of interconnects I started hearing some very nice tube-like qualities in the transients, harmonics an inner detail on anything I played. I thought I was imagining things but 2 other audiophiles with very discerning hearing observed the same thing. Thanks for the explanation of the diffs on the C-02; I think that is a likely move-up target for me as are the P-02 and D-02 though I will be sad to see the ability to play DVDA go when I move away from my P-03U. I have quite a few outstanding DVDAs (mostly AIX records) and have found them to be nothing short of very impressive.... MERRY CHRISTMAS! |
Thanks Colekat. I will try Wireworld as well. Esoteric 6300 is also very extended and very resolute (in its price range) and like you I am using a slightly warmer or less resolute cable with CDs.
I compared P02/D02 with Accuphase, Krell, Meitner Labs and Soulution as well.
On SACDs nothing came close. But with cds Soulution 745 had better bass, and sounded smoother and a lot more refined. Esoteric had way more resolution in the top octaves. Esoteric sounded slightly forward with holographic sound stage on the other hand Soulution was more laid back,.
I didnt like Accuphase, it was lacking ultimate bass and vocals were flat.
So when you balance the p02/d02's sound with a bit warm and laid back cable (only cd playback) you will get best of both worlds. |
Pharma, That is a World Class list of auditions... Great to hear you settled on the Esoterics. They are by a wide margin King of SACD at there price point. CDs can definately sound " brittle" with highly detailed cables. I think it is partly because most CDs have production limitations, only the best production CDs sound good to begin with. Even though they can be limited in resolution compared to SACDs, well produced CDs sound great on my rig.
The Esoteric sound is right on for me. I have an X-01/D2 I set up in my theatre rig to play multi channel SACD, and that sounds terrific too! It is not the smooth, refined and expansive presentation the P-02/ D-02 delivers , but it is definately Esoteric and it is a detailed, dynamic sound. I think that is where the Esoterics really deliver is in dynamics, great contrast in loud to soft, and with good cable choices, it is easy to nail it down however I like. |
Hey Zephyr, I think the C-02 sounds terrific, I haven't heard the C-03or C-03x , but I'm sure they are close in sound, and not far of in features! I got the C-02, because I got a great deal on a speaker trade-in with cash for the G-01 and C-02 together! I am glad I did. I have followed tour thread for a while and am starting to hear some of the improvements you text about as the hours build. I have around 200 hours on the C-02 and 300 on the clock. Definately opening up everytime I settle down and listen.
You have me very curious about your cable selection, what else have you tried? The Snake River Audio cables are a great deal, but I get a darker, laid back presentation with them, like I say great for CDs on the Esoterics! |
Watch for 350-500 on the Eso equipment (plus anything else for that matter IMHO!); the wait is definitely worthwhile....I've tried VH Audio, Shunyata, Synergistic, Transparent, MIT, Nordost, Audioquest all the way up to Sky, Volcano and WEL Signature, Tara 0.8, 0.5 and early Gold, many others. For PCs and Interconnects, Elrod Statement Gold and above and Kubala Emotion and Elation are my choice for SOTA cables (personal preferences only, not wanting to start a religious war!). I have not tried Crystal, Clarity, Kimber, Snake River and many others as an FYI |
Zephyr, Awesome ! Ya cables and clocks.... That al get a more than a few fire up ! As for cables, I would like to stay away from making mistakes, to hard to get rid of! And the mark up is a sin !
By the way, what did you think of the Synergistic Research stuff? |
To Colekat :
I am not settled yet. I will audition the new Soulution 745 with DSP upgrade. And there is dCS Vivaldi which is bugging me.
Cd sound improves a lot with the right settings from dac and of course with the right cable choice.
To Zephyr:
How are the Kubala Sosna cables compared to other cables you tried ?
So far best cables I have heard are Odin and Valhalla 2 which are very expensive. |
Well, if you are going all out auditioning, you may need to listen to the new Esoteric Gradioso's.... Just a thought! |
I dont think they will be available in US soon. It will probably cost near 100k without the clock. From the specs, technological details I felt that it was an improved p02/d02 rather than a complete novelty. Especially the transport is so similar to p02 I would hesitate paying twice or more.
That is why I want to explore other choices. |
I believe you are right on the money! I'm sure there is an upgrade in the technology and isolation can be a good thing, with the right cabling, but it seems more of an anwer to the DCS Vivaldi .
Good listening what ever you end up doing! |
Zephyr, I have been hearing my rig come together nicely! The more time on these pieces the better they sound. You are right on, as I pass 200 hours the treble has become more and more natural, espiecally on CDs. There was a brightness to the sound which sounds much smoother now!
I look forward to ever better sounds with these machines, they are definately very satisfying to me and better as I listen more. I believe with a little cable swapping I can really dial it in.
Great talking with all you guys, have a safe and Happy New Year! |
Colekat:
What is your system ? |
Hi Pharma, My front end is all Esoteric, D-02/P-02, C-02 Preamp and G-01 clock, Bryston 28Bsst2 mono blocks and Dynaudio Temptations, PS Audio PowerPlant 10 . All cabling for the front end is WireWorld Platinum Eclipse 7, with Shunyata ZiTron Power Cords and Snake River Audio Signature speaker cables. |
Hi Colekat:
Very nice system. Some people are using d02 directly with power amp. Are you happy with Brystons and did you audition other power amps. ?
Happy New Year. |
Hi Pharma, Yes, I am happy with the sound overall, although there's always something I want to change. The D-02 sounds very good directly feeding the amps, but the C-02 in the chain makes everything sound much better. The C-02 is an excellent Preamp, it warms up the whole presentation. Pharma, I like these amps, but would move on if a better sound at the right price could be had. I think the amps influence the overall sound the least at this level, and think I need to listen to more cables before I look at new amps!
Pharma, you said nothing comes close to the Esoterics for SACD, and you like the Solution for CDs, how about as a pure DAC, where do you rank the D-02. I have listened to a few Hi End DACs, and the D-02 just sounded better right out the box. It has suberb resolution and detail and deliniation of instruments.
Any amp suggestions? |
Hi Colekat,
If you were interested in exploring no-compromise high power amps outside the usual beaten path of class A and A/B, have a look at the Rowland M925 four chassis monoblock flagship. I have owned a pair of this Ncore NC1200 based amp since June, and am in awe of the caliber of music reproduction and resolution that it delivers.
My front end consists of an Esoteric X-01 serving as a transport, with a Rowland Aeris DAC connected via 75 Ohm coax, while Rowland Criterion is my linestage.
I have kept an M925 break-in diary of sorts at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1369518273&openfrom&1&4#1
Technical information on the amp can be found at:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=212
Saluti, G. |
Hey G, How much does the quad box set up cost? Right know I'm dialing in the cabling and PCs, but amps may be an upgrade at some point!
What are using for cables? |
Hi ColeKat, Rowland M925 lists for $58K. Its M825 stereo sibling costs $32K.
M925 yields 430W/8O and 850W/4O with a 2500W power supply per side.
M825 shares one 2500W power supply for the two channels. Power rating is 400W/8O and 750W/4O per channel.
Where are you located?
Saluti, Guido |
I am located in South Eastern, Massachusetts, USA. Thats is some serious money for amps. Not that I'm not over budget already... I started with a 50k limit, and that hasn't gone so well. Anyway, I am always interested in improvement, but at this time cables and power cords are the cause.
But for the hell of it, what is a reasonable multiplier on the Rowland Amps? |
Hi Colekat, my apologies, but... What does "multiplier" mean in this context?
... But we are straying visibly from the main topic of this thread. I have sent you a PM.
Saluti, Guido |
Sorry for the delay in responding, been traveling with the family over the holidays and had to put my time elsewhere! Please understand my remembrance of Tara, Synergistic, Audioquest, Transparent and other cable brands now goes back to their top models 2-3 years ago so take my feedback on them with that in mind; the top Synergistic cables that I heard at the time were very well rounded and high-performing cables. They did a very nice job giving full range response, big sound stage (in 2 dimensions though, the 3rd lacked extreme depth in many cases as with many other brands I've tired) and musicality with a bit of a rolled off top-end. I remember being very happy with the overall performance and sound but as with others, not being left with a feeling of finding a cable that could be called a 'destination cable'. This is true of both the digital and the XLR balanced analog offerings I've tried. Contrast that with Kubala Sosna Elation (for AES digital) between my P03U and D03 which gives me a cable that I can confidently call a destination cable; the soundstage is huge in all 3 dimensions, all the frequencies well cast and images well defined. Attack and decay and air around each note is hyper-accurate and true to what I've heard or been a part of with respect to live music and you have a presentation and tonal picture of a cable that I really love. I've had a similar experience around David Elrod's Statement Gold interconnects, Power Cords and Signature Gold speaker cables; the system simply "came alive" with an energy, dynamics, huge soundstage (all 3 dimensions) and musically true result that I've never heard in my setup before or for that matter in many systems I've demo'ed or heard at shows, etc....The combination I have running today both before and after I changed speakers recently is something I've only been able to enjoy since moving to these cables. My front end, pre-amp and amp have been stable and in place for years; these cables were "the" defining step to get my system to perform up to what I now know is its potential. One thing that has held true of interconnects, speaker cables and power cords for me is that it is all about synergy with equipment, room, other cables in the system and types of music one wants to play so please take any feedback/impressions into consideration with that in mindÂ… |
To Colekat:
D-02 is a very good DAC, but it is a bit dry and forward for my taste. It is a matter of taste of course, like wine people have different tastes. Some like dry Pinot Noir, others Merlot with full body. I compared many other digital gear, and so far D02 had the highest resolution, biggest and most accurate sound stage with prper instrument delineation, space, size and right timbre.
I suspect that my complaints are coming from the output stage, not the digital circuitry. I prefer a more laid back and relaxed presentation. I also prefer a bit more mid bass. As for the SACDs , many people would disagree, I like my older D03 dac that sounds more analog. USB with hi-res material sounds superb, and can compete with the very best.
I like older p01/d01 vuk combo and Soulution 745 as well.
As for the amplification my favorites are Soulution, Dan D'Agostino and Audio Research. I liked Soulution monoblocks the best. My second best is Dan D'Agostino. If you like valves I would recommend Audio Research and VTL. It all comes to personal taste. Also dont forget, there is no such thing as perfect sounding gear. The magic lies in the right combination of the equipments and cables. Like Soulution pre/power with Focal Stella Utopia,etc.. |
Hi Guidocorona,
x01 as a transport has a similar sound signature, which is a bit on the thicker and warmer side, as the p01. |
To Zephyr:
Thank you for the comparison. I will audition elation. |
Happy, Healthy and Wealthy (so that we can invest more in high end) New Year ! |
Hi Pharma, I agree with your finding on X-01 as transport... Thus, I have experimented by applying various combinations of Nordost Sort Kones under the device... Found that supporting X-01 with a Titanium Kone just behind each footer, salted by one Bronze Kone somewhere undeer the middle of the chassis, is transformative... Staging, top to bottom extension is increased, harmonic integrity is enhance, and so is linearity, all without causing any unmusical cross-modulation in the mid treble.
I can only conjecture that the enhancements may similarly affect newer / more advanced devices like the P-02, K-01, K-03... And mayhap the upcoming P1.
As an aside, I am experiencing further enhancements by applying the same configuration under the Rowland Aeris DAC.
|
Good new year: I just finished the 250 hour mark on my new esoteric P05 transport feeding my well broken in (600 hr) Rowland Aeris DAC, all Rowland electronics , Revel Salon 2's w/ Cardas Clear/Audience AU24 SE and must say the Esoteric transport was an eye opening/ear opening revelation. My system simply snapped into place w/ a lovely synergy, liquid musicality and holographic imagining . The Esoteric transport is stunning. Much more of a sonic leap than a step in my system & music room.
i wonder, all things being equal, if stepping up from the P05 to the P02 or P03 would yield meaningful gains? Costly no doubt!
I am also awaiting a Rowland 825 (sooner rather than later I expect) but want to sing the praise of Esoteric. I am a convert!
FYI The Rowland Aeris DAC is brillant at it's price point and well beyond . The DAC is magical but requires great patience w/ a long break in of 500-700 hours in my experience. The daily improvements are evident. |
To Guido:
Happy New Year. I will try Nordost Sort Titanium Kone. I recommend a used p01 or P02 since there are very low prices nowadays. You will hear more refinement and bigger, more precise sound stage. I found that Transports make much bigger difference than Dacs. |
Hi Csmsart, as X-01 appears to be quite sensitive to footers configuration when used as a transport into Aeris, I suspect that the use of more advanced / newer Esoteric transports like K-01 or P-02 might yield even more desirable results.
I agree about Aeris's fantastic qualities and break-in requirements... I have now about 250 hours on it. While very good initially, with relatively rapid evolution for the first 30 hours, further evolution was slow until about 220 hours. Until that time there were faint traces of treble overpressure.
Since then, frequency response has normalized into great musicality. All audible parameters appear to be blooming / maturing rapidly without signs of evolution slowing down... Aeris is becoming a real jaw-dropper.
For the last several days I have been feeding it a steady diet of large Bach organ works 24 hours a day... Seems to be a highly effective break-in therapy.
Do I prefer Aeris over D-02? Sorry... I have not experienced D-02 at all, so my answer is... I do not know the answer.
Guido |
To Csmsart :
I compared all the Esoteric transports with the exception of the new p1.
There is a big leap from p05 to p03. You can find very good prices for a second hand or demo. There is another big leap from p03 to p01 vuk (I liked upgraded vuk version better). P02 has a different sonic signature with less mid bass thickness or warmth, but with more openness and bigger sound stage. I personally liked the p01vuk and p03. Older transports are more susceptible to right "footing" or isolation. For the price performance ratio I strongly recommend a demo or less used P03. You wont be disappointed. Happy New Year. |
Hi Pharma, have you tried X-01 as transport? Could you comment on audible differnces between X-01 as transport and P-03?
Guido |
To Guido:
Yes, I did with the regular p01 and p03 side by side. It sounds more smilar to p01 than p03. P03 or P01 sound more refined, smooth and musical than x-01 as a transport. The highs are silkier on p03 and p01 versus X-01. There is more clarity, bass extension (especially with p01)and the sound stage is bigger. There is more of a natural free flowing character that is usually attributed to analog with p03 and p01 versus X-01. I recommend either of them and either of them sounds better than x-01, but for you p01 vuk would be a better choice in my opinion due to similar sound signature they have. I compared most of the transports with D03 dac. So, since you have a different dac and system I recommend to compare it in your system. |
I rank Esoteric transports like this :
1-p01 vuk and p02
2-p03
3-p05
4-x-01
Dacs when playing pcm/cd:
1-d02 and d01 vuk
2-K01 as dac
3-d03
4-d05
Dacs when playing DSD/SACD
1-D-03 and D-02 (my favorite is D03 with SACDs)
2-D-01 (it down converts sacds to 88k or 176k pcm)
3-D-05
This is just my personal opinion and taste your observations may be different. |
To Guido:
I didnt compare directly p05 transport with x-01 as a transport, but I rather compared p05/d05 with x-01. So, x-01 being ranked as 4th may not be accurate, but it is definitely ranked below p01,p02 and p03. |
Thank you Pharma, fascinating and useful info indeed!
I noticed that you have ranked K-01 only as DAC.... Can you rate its transport performance against X-01 and P-03?
How would you rate overall K-01 single box performance against P-03/D-03?
Thanks, Guido |
You're welcome.
I liked the DAC stage of K01. I compared it when it first came out back in 2011 with p03/d03. The DAC stage was better than d03 with pcm or cds. I first didnt like the sound of K01 compared to p03/d03. I found it too dry for my taste. When I connected p03 to K01, and used it as a DAC, I got better results, more refinement, more body, etc. Even tough they share the same mechanism (vmk 3.20) with the new p02 and p1 transports, k01 didnt perform like them as a transport. This could be due to better power supply or circuitry in dedicated transports or the clock. When used as a DAC It is close to D02. When I was doing this comparison I didnt use G0rb clock (I purchased it later). All comparisons are made with cds, since there was no way of outputting or inputting dsd to or from k01. That is why I didnt mention K01 as a transport. It would be ranked below p03 as a transport in my personal opinion. I would go for a dedicated transport if you need one. You can get a p03 or p01 nowadays for less than K01 if you need a transport. |
Thank you Pharma.... Excellent food for thought.... And even better food for fostering a fresh flare-up of my ever-simmering audiophrenic angsts. G. |
Hey Pharma, I see you have ranked the Esoteric DACs and Transports. After reading your prior posts, I would not have expected you to rank the D-02 & P-02 so highly in all your catagories. As a matter of fact, I did not think you were that fond of the D-02 . My impression is that you like other manufacturers DACs and Transports as well if not better, so how do you rank them all? |
Hi Guido, Great hearing from you, I was in Your area for a Super Bowl a few years back, and stopped into Antonne's to catch some tunes, wanted to see where Stevie Ray Vaughn got famous! Great time, listening to music live sure makes this hobby tough. There are times when I have it dialed right in, and it sounds live, only for the next song to expose the truth. There are so many variables and preferences to explore, to chain together a perfect combination is like winning the lottery, it happens, but theres alot of luck. We can throw our opinions around, and rank components, and talk about preferrences, but this is very humbling, and at a great cost. A great cost for me anyway. I don't have any dispossable income to use on this stuff, so I need to make good decisions, and thats why I bought Esoteric . I like the design philosophy, the house sound, the styling, and the resale. Esoteric is a sound you either like, or not, very few in betweens. Its about detail at the cost of so called musicality, its about deliniation of sound like no other, its about extreme bandwidth and dynamics, at the cost of sweetness. But, dialed in with the right cables, and speakers, its about those moments when all those separate sounds become a whole like no other . And the whole analog digital thing, if we liked spinning records, we wouldn't be on this thread trying to feel right about what we buy, we would be slugging it out on some analog thread doing the same thing.
So for my money, the Esoterics stand the test, great looks, good resale, terrific dynamics and detail, and a sound I can live with without second thoughts. The X-01 is an excellent transport, I still have my X-01/D2 in the chain for multi channel music. Still can't listen to the Eagles Hotel California in 2 channel . There are some things we like better than others.
And , oh ya, its not like the media is helping us out with this stuff. Thats the biggest problem of all, listen to some of the music they sell us, and the stuff we play it on makes it sound evermore what it is, crap!! That seems to be what we should be sharing about, what media to stay away from, not matter what we chain together, feed it junk and junk comes out!
But anyway, I think your set up is pretty cool, reading about the DAC you are using, it is highly regarded. How much did it improve the X-01, I haven't played my X-01 through the D-02, maybe I should give it a try! |
To Colekat :
I place Esoteric transports above all. I am not a big fond of The new D02 dac in some areas I mentioned before. I think K series of single box players and D02 are the first examples of a new era in Esoteric sound and the following Dacs will be better. I compared extensively p01vuk, p02 and p03 with Accuphase Dp 900 as well. I liked p01vuk, and p02 over Accuphase transport in all the areas I give importance to. Also as you know The new dCS Vivaldi is using Esoteric vmk3 and also Soulution is using Esoteric transport. It is well proven top transport. There are other choices like belt driven CEC which I didnt audition, but heard that it had some reliability problems related to belt.
I need to hear the new Esoteric D1 and dCS Vivaldi Dac for a comparison listing.
For The transports they are the top reference in my list.
As for The Accuphase I would rank it highly only in an Accuphase only system. I liked Esoteric (p01vuk/d03 or d02) better in most areas, except ultimate refinement than Accuphase. I simply had more fun and enjoyed the music through Esoteric than Accuphase. So, in fact I like the house sound of Esoteric but the older one, not the new one which can be related to the AKM dac chips or the output stage. I also like Soulution cd players.
Like I said it all comes down to personal taste. |
To Colekat:
There is one area that I disagree regarding the Esoteric gear, their resale value is not good if you paid for a new gear. |
To colekat:
I paid around 30k for a new special order p01 vuk in 2011 November (almost 2012). It is resale value is aound 10-12k now. I paid 13K for D03 Dac in March 2011 and its resale value is around 5-6k if you are lucky. I paid 15k for g0rb and it is resale value is 6-7K. As for the new D02 DAC I got a good deal for a new one for 15k (list 24k) and its resale value is less than 11-13k if you can sell it.
But if you buy them used or demo they pretty much keep their value depending on the deal. |
