Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@prof I am not an "expert" but it only takes a layman to hear SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES.  Are you deaf (or rather taste depleted that you can't tell salt from sugar)?  I have many friends, some who are experts in sound who do this for a living and very successfully for some of them, others as a serious hobby.  THEY DON'T MEASURE EVERY DIFFERENCE, it's a waste of time if the difference is significant, for better or worse.  If it is just different but neither better or worse, they just say whatever one prefers.  Look at the construction of a Pangea $65 power cable and a Grover Huffman $350 or $750 power cable.  HUGE difference.   Patent issued for the Grover Huffman cable.  I am not stating that it is the best cable in the world or for any system over other cables (only the ones I've compared them to).  I KNOW from several systems which switched out those cables that those equipment owners are delighted to have greatly upgraded their audio systems at a reasonable cost.  You don't have to believe me, that's your prerogative.  However, no one will be wasting their $100s on inferior garbage cables using superior cables. 

Again, maybe all those above posts don't believe cables make any sonic difference.  Then don't read my analysis as you will be sorely disappointed.  Go back to your "snake oil" forums on ASR.   

Talk about wasting $10,000s and more on cables would be using the very inferior design (electrically provable yet patented) High Fidelity cables.  Some people love them.  Most who have heard them don't, including my personal experience with a wealthy analog audiophile who dumped them when he knew he was experiencing shrill and thin sound (he came over to my home and my relatively puny system had his jaw drop versus his $1 million system.   Luckily for the majority of audiophiles, High Fidelity cables corporation is defunct saving the public from bad and very expensive cables.  Contrarywise, I have never heard a less than excellent system using Masterbuilt cables despite their equally high price when used with Von Schweikert speakers.  I have no idea about their construction or test measurements.  They do work magnificently on those speakers though and in those associated systems.  And if you don't believe me on this, how about the 40 or 50 reviewers of the Von Schweikert speaker demonstrations over the past few years which had reportedly had them transfixed, spending hours past midnight and earning among the most awards as best in show.  I doubt that so many people are being mislead.  Maybe Masterbuilt cables aren't the best or best for their cost but they certainly earn credibility in the best show systems in audio.  

From a newer Forum by @erik_squires   Pleasurably better, not measurably better

I have created a new phrase: pleasurably better.

I am giving it to the world. Too many technophiles are concerned with measurably better, but rarely talk about what sounds better. What gives us more pleasure. The two may lie at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I use and respect measurements all the time, but I will never let any one of them dictate to me what I actually like listening to.

From @curtdr 

Everybody's ears are different... So, if something measures "flat," that's not necessarily how my ear hears it; so, for my pleasure factor, I may prefer speakers that rise in the high frequencies to somewhat offset my ears' drop in highs, as a simple example.

The point about Bose is well-taken.  It depends on the audience and the application.  While not my primary listening speakers, I have a pair of original 301 v1, refoamed woofer of course, hanging by wires under my porch awning.  We play poker out there.  Everybody including me loves the sound, in that application.  We're not critically listening, and it doesn't matter: we like it.

A speaker series that defies the "measure flat = great" metric is of course the Klipsch Heritage series.  The sort of "it ain't perfect but it doesn't even matter because it sounds so very engaging" experience that many people, most critics included, adore.  Even the Heresy IV have moved me to tears on occasion, and I "grew up" as a neutral leaning sort of guy.  They're like a gateway drug... it's hard to go back to more laid back sound, once you get used to 'em... and the problem is, they have me jones-ing for more:  Forte IV, here I come???  

@erik_squires 

What if I like 2.8% distortion?  Sure, we can measure it, but the engineering goal of lower is not the same as my personal listening goal of making things that sound good to me. 

 

If you prefer 2.8% distortion that's fine and dandy.
Who knows, on certain music and certain genres I might like it too.

But then again what if this 2.8% distortion is always audible, on all music?

What if this sometimes nice distortion on some recordings then turns into nasty distortion that you can't 'hear through'?

Perhaps the strongest argument for neutrality is that you get to hear the differences in different recordings rather than them all being smothered in the same sonic sauce.

I recall that of the criticisms of the Linn LP12 was that it put it's own sonic signature on everything that was played upon it, as opposed to decks like the Pink Triangle which were far more neutral.

This sonic signature (midbass warmth?) could sometimes suit certain types of music (jazz soul and funk?) and sometimes spoil others (piano, strings, pop, and rock?). 

 

I was again reminded of this whilst watching the latest video from the audiophlliac himself, Steve Guttenberg, who recently changed his reference loudspeakers.

One of the reasons Steve puts forward for swapping his Klipsch Cornwall's for the PureAudioProject Duet 15's is exactly this issue about neutrality.

Even if the Cornwall's do other things better, the more neutral 15s allow you to hear the differences between recordings better. 

The problem with audible distortion is that there is no such thing as an entirely benevolent distortion in all cases..

@holmz "To say that the ears are all different would be like saying that the feel of a block of ice or a hot stove is different because all people “feel” differently."

No... we have glasses or custom lasik to correct for differences in vision, some people even have color blindness, and we all have different hearing profiles. If we all had 20/20 vision and hearing, nobody would need correction. As for old and hot, 32 is 32 and 212 is 212, freezing and boiling.... (and even so, some people wear jackets when it's 70 degree weather, while others are loving it in shorts and t-shirt). But that’s not the same as flat to 20hz when my hearing isn’t flat to 20 hz.​​​​​​... If my hearing rolls off at 12hz, then a speaker that rises at that point might actually sound "flatter" to me, at my point of perception, than one that does not rise to compensate for my ears’ rolloff point.

This is why we have bass and treble controls too... to help compensate not only for our own individual hearing but also for our own personal preferences and purposes. It’s music, for crying out loud! Taste matters. I’ve seen plenty of "technically perfect" performances that were boring, boring to me, anyway. There’s something to be said for heart and soul... immeasurable factors. It doesn’t make sense to say one "should" prefer this or that sound, especially if one is reasonably cognizant of audio. Somebody who tells me I should prefer some speaker instead of one that I actually, in usage in my home, like pleasurably better... well, I can confidently dismiss that person’s opinion in that case.

Saying flat is ideal always reminds me of philosophers who have very neat ideal theories which then bump up against real world experience; I’m oversimplifying, but Kant’s "everybody should be treated as if they were all equally rational" comes to mind, and Rawl’s "social justice" theories, as does Marx’s so-called "scientific" economic theories, however compelling on paper... some universal theory of human experience will never, as far as I can tell, be formulated.

Not to dismiss measurements, I check 'em out myself, but technical measurements of equipment don't dictate the pleasure factor of individual listeners... never have, and, as far as I can tell, never will.  The evidence of this claim can easily be seen by the variety of individual choices sophisticated audiophiles make when it comes to our own preferred speakers, for example, in our homes.  In old school terms, "east coast sound vs. west coast sound,"  ... and on and on.  

@holmz "And it does not matter what every member of the audience is hearing..."

If you’re a member of the audience, it certainly does! It matters to oneself.

Ultimately, it does not matter what every measurement is telling me, if it doesn’t sound great to me, with my ears, in my room, to my taste.

Like someone earlier in this thread here, I am not here to serve the gear, the gear is here to serve me... so matter how "good" or how "bad" the measurable performance, if it doesn’t serve me pleasurably better, then it has no place in my home. Some "audiophiles" really are more "technophiles;" and technophilia has it’s place, but it ain’t gonna dictate my loving audio preferences.

I’ve heard plenty of speakers that "measure better" but that I do not like as much as certain personal trusty pleasurables, so obviously it would be downright silly to buy the less enjoyable speakers just because they measure better! (unless I’m trying to impress somebody other than myself... or if I’m being masochistic or audio-moralistic and insisting to myself that I should like the less enjoyable speakers, and damnit I’m going to make myself like them better because I "should"... )

 

 

My comments: @chmaiwald Great!  Food comparison.  McDonald's burgers measure better than any other fast food burger for consistency.   Despite that, I only eat Angus ground sirloin burgers at Le Petit French restaurant because they taste better to me.  Amir's answer-Le Petit's burgers are too expensive so I am throwing away money when I could have purchased half a dozen McDonald's.  

 

From @chmaiwald 

From the top of my hat I can‘t think of any hobby or whatever gives you pleasure where least personality is something widely accepted as the ultimate goal.

“I went out dining, and let me tell you, that casserole was so accurate. I loved its linearity. I measured it.“

I‘m joking of course, but I think there‘s something to it. 

My hearing is fine. It was tested twice in the past two years. My upper limit is 16 Khz, the tester said at normal amplitude which I do not know. I have exceptional hearing for my age as does my 88 year old mother. I must have great hearing and reflexes while sleeping to hear my wife’s Dexcom/phone alarm which just beeps to provide her with juice when her blood sugar drops and she would otherwise die.  She sleeps through fire alarms and has no awareness of low blood sugars after 61 years of Type 1 diabetes.  So, my hearing is critical to my marriage.

I also am very depended upon by an orchestra, chamber group and many choirs to make good recordings in major venues. My recordings are generally superior to current over-reverberant, distantly miked modern recordings. My chamber work has the clarity of the best jazz recordings.

There is a multitude of forums not on ASR and my above cited new Audiogon forum which is what I believe about measurements as a starting point, trial and error and personal listening preferences. You don’t like it, do what you want. I don’t need to be lectured as to right and wrong.

Sighted tests are verboten? They can only be guesses and wrong. Like rolling dice? Must have measurements! Must be ABX blind testing! Sounds as ridiculous as it is.

 

 

@kota1 +1 You are so correct.  Some audiophiles feel that the listening room is 50% of the sound.  I know from my experience, that getting the room acoustics right is fundamental to maximize the quality of the sound.  As you can read/see from my listening room components and construction, I get high end sound out of less than exorbitantly priced equipment because of my dedication to creating a favorable listening environment.  My neighbor wanted to purchase my home before I did and convert the 20X20X10 living room into a listening room because his room is just average with $1/2 million audio system.  At least he finally got cabling right so that it is now a very enjoyable listening experience at his house.  

@kota I know. I only upgraded my analog with a new SUT to suit my former cartridge in 17 years. I now use a 1/3 less costly cartridge which sounds great with most of my collection. I have the same amps/pre-amp/phono pre for 20-22 years. It was only the digital realm that needed upgrading and I am successful at that so no more digital upgrades either. My ICs, power and speaker cables remain the same since 2018. My speakers are very good but when I can afford to, I want to upgrade them for similar sound, better dispersion (seating area) and ambiance retrieval. The more efficient line of Von Schweikert speakers I’ve heard would be ideal.

I’ve gone to two local homes with $$$$ speakers in $$$$ excellent built rooms but with either terrible cabling and/or equipment which ruined the sound. The equipment and/or cabling were just not synergistic (or could never be good sounding eg: High Fidelity cables).

Notice that I have a tapestry mounted on the front wall. I have not found something as thin and slightly absorptive that can compensate for the slight upper right corner echo we hear without it. I’ll check out GIK because they have inexpensive, cardboardy material that might work. I’ve tried a half dozen other panels which were either too absorptive or too reflective.

@holmz  Again, you have not read my postings.  I am very concerned with test measurements to begin/began my search for equipment.  My speakers are very low distortion, especially at low frequencies and are relatively neutral without major humps or bumps.  My tube gear is on the warm side of neutral but not "tubey," or high in distortion, even or odd, from low to high power range.  My cartridge test measured flat from 10Hz to 20Khz per the test sheet (unlike Lyras with their rising high end test measurements I've seen as well a heard).  

Where there are no measurements, I use trial and error as does everyone I know locally (and that's 100s of audiophiles, music lovers, etc). 

If I don't get your point, then maybe I have too low an IQ and you're just a genius.  

@kota1  Right! Where are his in room test measurements?  Did he post them on his site?  Or does he think that just by choosing the best measuring equipment (and any old major brand professional cable) that his room sound measures perfectly (or anywhere near perfect throughout or just in the sweet spot seat)? 

@prof   but refuse to accept the validity of blind testing components for what you can *really* hear or not).  I do NOT refuse to accept the validity of blind testing equipment, cables or tweaks.  However, I am unable to do blind testing.  So, I rely on my hearing.  Not too bad in my opinion.  I also listen to my friends who have superior acoustic listening/interpretation ability.  They pinpoint problems, one who has Asperger and audio sound is his superiority in life.  His hearing is like a computer.  I don't inform my two Golden Ear friends what I have done/doing.  They tell me what they are hearing and often, what corrections should be made.  Try topping that with Blind Testing by the usual crowd of audiophiles.  They have really taught me to hear/listen better.  My wife is so used to decades of my cable testing  for the manufacturer that she automatically is skeptical of the sound whether it meets with her approval or something less.  She said I have trained her to hear sound as well as music.  Before me, she was fine listening to a boombox and car radio.  

@holmz I have posted my components and my room on Audiogon.  I do not have tone controls.  I don't mess around with feedback settings, cartridge impedance settings, etc.  I can adjust these but once I found the best sounding setting, I leave them alone.  I sit back and listen to music.  I don't play with equipment, it's not my thing. 

I've heard $15+K cartridges and they did sound great with my hot stampers.  They don't typically sound as good with my lesser pressings, mono LPs, etc.  That is why I chose to step down to a Dynavector 20X2L.  One friend who is an LP only expert who is seen all over the Southwest at shows selling high end jazz as well as rock and classical agreed that his Dynavector 20X2H played more LPs better than his current Dynavector XX2L.  When the latter wears out, he will return the former.  Three other friends with 3,500 to 8,000 LPs also use the same cartridge, one stepping down from the Dynavector D3.  The 20X2 sounds great on so many LPs.  

 

@prof  So, you are a firm believer that all digital cable, if correctly made, sounds the same.  So what I say is snake oil.  That's where I am 100% certain you are mistaken.  I stated you can believe what you want but don't imply that I am wrong because I didn't test measure the differences or that I am being deceived (or all of my friends and experts are also being deceived).  Go back to ASR's snake oil forums and write all you want about how all digital cables sound the same, I don't care.  There is an immense difference in sound from the six different cables I tried.  

This is as silly as my neighbor who is an electrical engineer who thought all power cables should sound the same with a $1/2 million system that had major frequency irregularities and sonic mush.  He often changed expensive equipment not knowing why they didn't satisfy him.  Just one superior cable on his amp and he was convinced he was wrong.  After replacing all six power cables, he admits that scientifically it is unexplainable but the difference exists.  You think he is being deceived now?  That he is a fool too?    Yes, I guess based on your certainty that all digital cables sound the same that power cables also sound the same, unless you reserve your "truth" only about digital cables.

@holmz  I agree.  The $15K cartridge sounded great in a $1+ million system (Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement on a Kronos top turntable). Using my LPs, it couldn’t sound more realistic and involving. Maybe it would have sounded great on my other old and/or poorly pressed LPs. I know from experience and friends who had more expensive cartridges that they preferred certain LPs over others. While sounding great on some, they sounded blah or irritating on others. My Benz Ruby3 did not like SUTs. It preferred playing through an active step up in a phono pre-amp. The Dynavector loves my Zesto Allesso SUT.

@amir - YOU ARE SO FULL OF YOURSELF!!!!!You mad a change, he listened more carefully and now he "heard" more detail, air, etc. Nothing had changed in the sound. It was him that changed because our hearing is elastic and 2-way. A comparison causes our brain to work differently and hence we perceive things differently. Sure, my friend is such a fool too, he’s an electrical engineer with a net worth north of $50 million with 552 apartment units, multiple homes, etc. He is so stupid he can’t tell when his system sucked (3 friends and myself did not appreciate the ragged/bad bass and mushy, distant/behind the speaker floating in the air sound). He swapped equipment annually for $10,000s and lost $26K on one amp in 2020. After Covid, he replaces junk power cables with quality ones and he is 100% mislead by his imagination. NO NO NO!!!!! You are full of hot air (and that’s being nice)!

You service your miscreants and sane members of ASR. I am not an authority on measurements like you say you are. But I bet that I am more an authority on creating a great sounding system with new or used equipment! I have friends in the remastering and audio equipment manufacturing business, the latter who put your puny knowledge of audio equipment to shame. When was the last time you developed your own amp, pre-amp, phono stage, DAC, turntable, arm, cables (oh anyone can do that-not!). Never? My friends in the business know a lot more than you do and they say I have a very good ear for sound. You’re just the Wizard of Oz.

@rcaguy I am NOT a data denier. I also am not a real audiophile since I do not worry about my equipment (or their measurements). I prefer to listen to my music as I also don’t have the time to concern myself with what could make my audio system sound better. Only speakers at this point but I enjoy my system the way it is.

Read all of my posts and you will see how I desire test measurements where they are available. If they are not available, I do not just purchase equipment based on published meaningful technical specifications. They can also deceive as well (meaningful depends on it’s veracity as well). It’s also the synergy factor between equipment parts and the room as well. It’s not like building a tinkertoy. A good audio system is more complex. I absolutely believe cabling is equivalent to equipment in importance. Tweaks can be the added spice or correct acoustic deficiencies.

The amp in question sounds like one John Atkinson sort of trashed in 2018. Might it be a recent Cary Audio’s CAD-805RS? I read the review a while back and was rather shocked at it’s mediocre performance both distortion and power figures. That amp is $17K. Or the 25 year old Cary CAD-805 which has equally poor measurements at $9K in 2001. Thomas Norton warned, "There is more to the story than measurements, of course; if you listen to the CAD-805s, fall in love with their sound, and can afford the price and loudspeaker restrictions, by all means buy them. But go into the purchase with open ears." After consuming five critics opinions (four in love with it) on that amp over the years, I would choose the McIntosh MC30s. In my system, MC30s have unbelievably beautiful mids and sound like double the rated power (conservatively specd’  with great dynamics) but flabby bass. Friends bi-amp using it for the mids and highs.

@holmz For decades my cartridges have come with test graph measurements, sometimes with not just frequency sweep but with tracking force and test room temperature. Unfortunately, I’ve heard that cartridge manufacturers are dropping their included graphs in their cartridge boxes.

@mapman ​​​​​@thyname  +10

Read the ASR reviews of the Topping D70s (AKM) and D90 (ESS Sabre).

40 db quieter for the D90 BUT upon hearing these units-D70s sounds better.  Bought one as a back-up to my COS D1v.  Measurements don't tell all.