Tweak1, WC is talking about listening to the direct vs the preamp in HIS very high end revealing system not your system. When you talk about your soundstage being deep, wide and holographic what preamp are you comparing it to. What system are you revealing it on. All this matters. I’m not doubting what you are hearing I’m just wondering what you are comparing It to and in what system. This may make A difference. For example if you are comparing to an inferior preamp or a very good preamp. Can you clarify please. This will give us a greater understanding of how you reach your results.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
As mentioned before, it is system-dependent. We also forget the rest of the system: Subject A you have (hypothetical) a pair of focal sopra 2 and you do a dac as a preamp, i do not see a reason why that would not work and provide satisfying results using a decent dac as preamp Subject B You have Focal Stella Evo and are using the same dac as subject above into your preamp. Any idea how much difference you will hear with both set ups? Subject A will get a good presentation that will satisfy his needs while Subject B will be underwhelmed because a speaker of the caliber of the Focal Stella Evo WILL tell you: " i can give you a better soundstage than this, better bass than this, more impact, i can fill your bedroom with sound even though i am sitting in your living room, but this dac wont allow me to so i am giving you just facts". See, that is something that unfortunately MOST people won’t have the chance to hear for themselves because you almost (again, almost) have to own multiple speaker of different tier groups to understand this phenomenon due to the fact that you can switch them out in your room. You can hear this quite easily in your room where YOU can control the variables. Last night i was listening to the 13a and i was quite amazed how much better things got after adding the preamp. i actually sat and listened for about an hour straight. I then brought out the Alexia 2s after a 2 week hiatus and positioned them. I was SUPPOSED to be like "omg" this is ridiculously better and guess what? that is not totally true. I gained more clarity but i could hear the imperfections of the recordings, the soundstage was good, but it did not blow me away as i remembered it before. As a matter of fact, and to be transparent here, i felt like the alexia 2s only sounded "decent" and i heard crickets in my head. That said, my brain immediately went to these thoughts: -Speakers need time to settle in the system after not being used for some time, drivers are cold,etc (fact) -You are using a Merrill Preamp - When Alexia 2 blew you away, you were using Momentum HD -Is the Alexia 2 so revealing that i am hearing my weak links which were not so apparent with the logans? - Why is the bass giving me a headache? is it time to continue to move the Alexias a little more into the room to balance out the bass better? These were REAL questions i had last night after not listening to these speakers for 2 weeks and i came to the conclusion that i need to keep working on the Alexia’s placement AND yes this answered my question once again that as you go up the ladder, good sounding components with more affordable speakers often times WILL NOT MAKE THE CUT with better, more resolved speakers. More resolved speakers won't tolerate subpar supporting cast. A person using a focal sopra 2 (again, this is a random example) does not know WHAT a Wilson Alexia 2 can do in terms of scale, soundstage, depth, height and width, etc so they do not have a way of comparing how good or bad things sound. We can also look at it like this: I can bring my DCS Rossini to your system which consists of a pair of KEF Ls50 bookshelf speakers with a PS Audio Dac and you might be like "WOW i can not believe how close they sound!!!" yes, you are right, you can't tell much of a difference in your system, but how about doing this on a more revealing system? You would be able to hear how a Chord Dave is not really at the level of a DCS Rossini. |
Listened to corrected 13A video and compared to last 20.7 video. First on 13A, agree that room correction helped integrate the presentation, making the bass improved, so it sounds better. It was awful before, but sounds pretty decent now. I think as each setup stands, the 13A and 20.7 overall are comparable in performance. Will come down to personal preference and could imagine preference results of large sample size nearly 50-50. For me, I slightly prefer the 20.7. It hasn’t been discussed here since WC mentioned it but I think maintaining both a modest (in WC world that is still a $50k system) and concurrently an ultra system is fantastic. Then hopefully you can try to make both better over time. That would be a blast. Will you get a lower cost dac like Bartok or Dave or vega 2.1 for the lower system? |
kps25sc, Good post of yours on the apparent paradox of why I use the Rane EQ when I want to eliminate as much electronics as possible. It is likely that SOTA line stages are more transparent than the Rane line stage circuit. That is without the EQ. The reason I use the EQ is that there are so many deficiencies of speakers and recordings compared to live music. If you have enough exposure to unamplified music, especially classical, you realize that nearly all recordings and speakers are dull/veiled compared to the real thing. And many recordings present a more distant perspective than what I want--the close view of being in the 1st row, or even better, on stage with the musicians. I boost HF to restore most of the bite, sparkle and snap of real instruments which are drastically diminished on all un-EQ'd systems I have heard. It is true that my use of the EQ amounts to "coloring" that I seek. But this "coloring" is necessary because otherwise the system is not worth listening to seriously for sound enjoyment, but merely for casual musical enjoyment. When most people here use a preamp, they are taking away some of the bite and snap, but my coloring with the EQ does the opposite--adding back some bite and snap. Admittedly it is not perfectly natural, but goes a long way. Another way to conceive my approach, is that without EQ and without the Rane, I would take 2 steps forward in transparency. But since recordings and my speakers are 50 steps behind the sound of real unamplified music, the EQ effect gives me perhaps 35 steps forward. Subtract 2 steps for the veiling of the Rane circuits, and I move forward 33 steps. If I had a SOTA volume control without a line stage circuit but with the flexibility of a dedicated EQ (unfortunately the EQ in the Dag preamp provides much less flexibility), that would be a good move for me, so instead of losing 2 steps with the Rane, I would be losing only 1 step, and be ahead 34 steps instead of 33. |
I plan to keep 2 separate systems at all times in my room where i can control the variables. That said, i probably need to eliminate either the magnepan or the 13a because i am running out of room unfortunately and too much inside the room certainly interacts with the speakers being used. i can not keep 3 sets of speakers so yes, i am trying to decide which should be the speaker to go. Questions i am asking myself: - Should i keep the logans since i can fine tune the bass and it does not lack bass like the magnepan? -Do i want to keep the magnepan even though i won’t be adding subs (i dont want to get into all that mess) so that bass will always be lacking with music? Well boys, my new preamp is out for delivery today. I am quite nervous to be honest because this will be the first stab (after the Momentum’s HD departure) at using a serious preamp again and as you know, synergy is really the name of the game at this level and i do not know how this new preamp will interact with the Mephisto. I will post a quick video tonight revealing what this beast is. Stay tuned for that ! |
carey1110, Emotional connections mean different things to different people. For me, the emotional connection to the music I enjoy means hearing every detail of the piece as well as the musician's artistry. You know that classical music is so complex, and when you look at the printed musical score, you understand that so much is missing from recordings of that piece, and even from live performances of the piece. Therefore, when I do anything to try to reveal more of the music, I am happier. Another issue is that there is a difference between electronic coloring from introducing a preamp, and the natural colors of live unamplified instruments. Take the sax I recently heard live. There was a little bit of warmth to the tone, but that was really the natural smoothness of the sax. When coupled with the extraordinary level of detail and lack of electronic and speaker overlays of distortion, that "warmth" (bad word) was beautiful. Now think of a speaker playing a recording of the sax, with "warm" euphonic electronics. The "warmth" amounts to mere veiling and dullness. When selectively reducing HF, warmth is produced. I don't like this type of "warmth" but I do appreciate the "warmth" (excuse me, bad word again) and much greater detailed variety of tone colors of the natural instrument. Analogy again--rose colored sunglasses. The overall view of a blue sky and sunny day is beautiful through the sunglasses. The sky is more beautiful, with a warmer hue of blue. However, look at the green trees, and their "green-ness" is washed out. If you want to look at the complete variety of colors in nature, and the sun is not in your face, get rid of the sunglasses. I think of the sunglasses as the negative factor that reduces the variety and natural quality of colors in nature. Sunglasses = preamp. |
viber6 We obviously have diverging meanings of “transparency “. You like to tailor the sound to your liking with a active equalizer and all the electrical circuitry and extra cables that entails and are happy with the result. I totally understand that. But please try to also accept Jay’s findings when it comes to preamps, he is the one actually listening to his system, and a video can give some idea of tone, but is little help when it comes to other parameters of the presentation. |
WC, I recommend you keep the 20.7 as an example of excellence for planar/ribbon technology, and of course enjoy the Alexia 2 as a great example of conventional driver box technology. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. As you noted, you prefer one for some music, and the other for other music. The 13A doesn't compete for any music. Its woofer is inferior to the Alexia 2, and its stat panel is inferior to the midrange and HF of either the 20.7 or Alexia 2. |
Viber, You are using glasses as an analogy, but if i go back to car analogies, they are dismissed.... I can put it to you like this: You built a 1500 hp Dodge Viper where you accelerate hard and it spins tires constantly. You spin tires at 100mph at wide open throttle. Then, as you keep getting used to it and driving the car, you realize the clutch is beginning to slip and the rear differential is making clunking noises. You later find out, you are not a good driver because you let your buddy borrow your car to make a 1/4 mile pass and he drove the car faster than you do. He is a better driver than you. What to do? hmmm... well, you built a monster engine and forgot about the rest of your car including your driving skills? My point is, you build a 1500 hp car and you drive it daily to go to work and smash the gas pedal here and there and it is getting the job done of taking you to work and the grocery store, but are you really maximizing its performance if you have lame driving skills? Getting the job done "ok" is usually what a dac does in most (not all) set ups, but maximizing the performance of ultra high end systems almost always ends up with a great preamp in the mix. Hell, go to the shows and you will see the best rooms always use a preamp. I am of the mentality that if i am building an engine, i am going to try to maximize every aspect of the car to capitalize on the large dump of money i have put into the engine. I am going to want to drag race or road race the car here and there. I am not building a 1500hp to be a garage queen or to drive to my local grocery store. I chase maximum results through trial and error. |
Also, the new preamp may be more detailed than the Pandora, and the risk is that with the Alexia 2 you might not like it so much. Then you will downgrade the cables in favor of more euphonic ones. But with the more natural (to me) and more revealing upper mids and HF of the ribbon tweeter of the 20.7, you might appreciate the detail of the new preamp, and welcome more revealing cables like the Nordost or whatever else is coming. No compromises needed. No flawed mixing and matching in the name of synergy. Even if you think you find synergy now, it may not work out later as you introduce new components where you have to almost re-do the entire system to achieve the new synergy. As I said before, I never have to worry about synergy, because I always go for detail and transparency. If a new component comes up for trial, if it doesn't increase clarity, I am not interested. |
ok, so i will quote you: "if a new component comes up for trial, if it does not increse clarity, i am not interested". This statement summarizes (finally) that your main objective is clarity which is fine. That is your system. When it comes to me, i seek (in no particular order) -speed -slam -dynamics -soundstage width and depth (must have for me) -3d imaging (must have for me) -resolution -clarity -long listening sessions at ALMOST any listening level -sense of space -air |
WC, All analogies are flawed, because they are merely analogies. Music and sound appreciation has little to do with cars. If you had more exposure to live unamplified music, you would better understand what I am saying. If you knew more about classical music and its complexity, that would help also. Guido Corona and almarg (sadly deceased) have also assisted in listing some classical music pieces you would enjoy. |
I like the glasses analogy. However I’d take it a step further with Viber6’s EQ. I’d say the EQ may act as a pair of prescription lenses. Perhaps Viber6 needs the EQ to tune the sound for his ears. Remember we all hear differently. For him this works. Because without it the images are blurred and not as clear. Maybe? |
One last point i want to make, which is valid, Viber, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW if using a dac direct is superior to using a world class preamp? I have done the trials with dacs (many dacs) straight into amps, but have you done a trial with a preamp of the level of a momentum hd ? It is kinda hard to have a debate if you are "blind-folded" to the experiences that the other person is trying to present because you haven't been there in exactly the same shoes as his. I can say i have replicated what you claim in regards to dacs using EXCELLENT DACS (not best buy streamers), but what world class preamp have you owned to replicate what i have done? maybe you have done it and i might have missed it. Let us know. |
Clarity encompasses what you describe as speed, resolution, sense of space, air, soundstage width/depth, 3d imaging. However, often soundstage depth is greater with warm, euphonic components, because everything is pushed back to a greater distance. But more accurate components can display greater VARIETIES of depth, even if everything is more forward. 3D imaging is great as long as the images are not bloated/inflated. More accurate components show more focused images, which actually show more 3D because the sound space has more points of interest. This is like putting on your glasses and seeing more faint stars in the sky, compared to your decreased vision and seeing fewer stars indistinctly located. Dynamics is a special case. Micro-dynamics are revealed better with components that go for clarity, such as properly designed stats and planar magnetic ribbons. Large scale dynamics are better in dynamic box designs, horns. So, my top priority of clarity actually gives me most of the things you value, but not all, such as large scale dynamics and bass slam. |
Come on, WC. Viber doesn’t let any of that get in the way of his pronouncements. He goes purely based off of theory and outdated information. And in his mind he is always correct. But good for calling him out on it. Doesn’t mean he can’t have the opinion, of course, before all the softies start railing on me. We all have opinions. Most of us do not beat everyone else over the head with them. But he and I do agree on 20.7 > 13A, haha. For me it's close to a tossup. Both have pluses and minuses but on balance I like 20.7 little better. |
WC, Technically, you are correct, because I have not done what you have, in using SOTA line stages. But my post yesterday makes my point that for other applications like FM tuners and turntable/cartridge systems, whatever preamp I used caused deterioration in clarity. I did mention that the Christine altered the sound very little, compared to the DCS direct, but I think I would have come to the same conclusions using the Christine as well as my probably inferior preamp I had at the time. The veiling of the Christine is small, and likely much less than the veiling of the line stages I used in my tests. |
Remember viber, we all have opinions and they are all welcomed here. I actually love this debate we have going on about dac and preamps. This is EXCELLENT and it really makes people see different points of views on both sides of the fence. That said, it is kinda hard for me to tell the 1500 hp dodge viper owner how to drive it or build his car when i really have never driven one? i have basic knowledge of twin turbos, engines, the need for better transmissions, good tires and overall common sense with regards to cars just like the common sense most people seem to have about understanding that the less components are used in the system (aka no preamp) the better it will be because you are removing an extra circuit. However, theory, hypothesis, are simply that. We do not know what facts are until everything is put into practice. You can read books on how to perform surgery, do a heart transplant and what not, but until you get behind the scapula and begin to perform one, you won’t know if you are capable of performing a successful surgery. You just read HOW TO, but it does not mean you have done it successfully. |
In all seriousness, I think the differing views here play in different sonic universes. WC plays in the hi-end. Viber plays in the low end. Nothing wrong with that. WC has acknowledged that at the low end it can work the way Viber insists it works everywhere. Viber has never played in the hi-end, but likes to apply theory to the hi-end. But, and here’s the positive spin on all of this: Maybe the results to preamp vs. direct debate will be different in the modest system versus the hi-end system, right in your room? Perhaps get a modest dac (Vega G2.1, Directstream, Dave, Bartok) for the modest system and see?? So many possibilities with the maintenance of two separate systems. PS - I love how on this thread a "modest" dac is $14k (Bartok) |
Speaking of prescription glasses: About 2 months ago i started to get crazy pain on my left and and on my forehead. I have never ever suffered from migraines or headaches in my life. I went to the Ophthalmologist a month ago and they ran all sorts of tests on my eyes and said my left eye was dry and had elevated eye pressure. They gave me prescription glasses with a blue filter. He said that he thinks this is due to the fact that i am behind a computer, phone or television for too long. The pandemic is making many of us use digital devices all day long since we are home and that has an effect called "digital migraines". I also think the LED lights i have in my room are not good for me because i catch myself squinting without even realizing it. This also made me nauseous and/or dizzy at times. I think i got it under control, but i suspect this whole pandemic and working from home under LED lights all day, looking at my phone to respond to messages, watching youtube, Netflix, etc, etc has not helped me over the last 3 months. Stress is also another huge factor, alcohol (you all know i love my vodka and tequila here and there) are also not good for this. If i get irritated about something, it is as if someone just punched me on my left eye and i slowly start to feel the throb or pain little by little. Man i am getting older !! it sucks!! |
WCSS LEDs Effect on Light Sensitivity and Migraine |
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I just wanted to comment on the above: I hold zero grudges against anyone. Greyhound and I messaged each other privately and I believe we put things to rest. I listened to his points and he heard mine. I want you all to know that I don’t hold any sort of hate/grudge against anyone here even if we have had exchanges that might have gone over the top. If we can sit back down, understand each others views, bury the hatchet, I am the first one willing to extend my hand and shake yours. I just don’t like to fix things and then we go back to the same behavior a few weeks later. (hell I have my wife for that already lol). I want us all to just be grown ups, listen to each others points and then chime in respectfully. I also think that it is important to NOT IMPOSE your views on anyone. You present your facts, I take notes on your findings, I do a little research on what was said and then decide if I might want to explore that option. I know each and everyone of you here work your asses off day in day out to be able to afford the rig that you have put together. I also feel that I need to be a better "manager" of the conversations and take notice of those of you who have more of a simplistic approach to audio. Part of the reason why I want to build two systems is to be able to cater to those who own more "affordable" gear and those who own the higher end components. I will never belittle what you own and If I have ever EVER done that, I am publicly apologizing. Lastly, I wish some of you lived closer to me so we can play with your components in here too. It really REALLY does suck to live in South Florida. I envy those of you who live in NY, TX, CA or states with big audio communities. Florida is a vacation state. Very little interest in high end here at least south of Tampa. |
kren0006, "I agree with WC, and stand by my statement that the myth Viber pushes - that due to clarity it is always better to use dac direct - is wrong. No offense to Viber, he is just wrong on this point." Actually, WC agrees with viber6 regarding clarity - it’s mentioned in his first three points, with regards to the dcs Rossini with clock plugged in to the Mephisto: 1. Obscene amount of information 2. Every nuance and detail is served on a platter 3. Awesome low-volume level listening experience So, for WC, clarity is important, but it’s not everything. That’s why WC has points 5-8. For viber6, clarity is everything. Points 1-3 are exactly what viber6 has spoken about previously, and that’s what makes it better for him. It’s just two differing opinions/preferences. No right or wrong. Dave |
Here we go: Here's today video: https://youtu.be/5BFWLfzUHhs Christine preamp is now in the mix. Please listen to this video and the previous video without the preamp. Let me know your thoughts |
kren0006, That is exactly the point. I’m paying attention, but you’re not getting it. From viber6’s point of view it is always better, and for him that is correct. He clearly states "For me..." in his post. He does also make the point that if it’s not what someone else (like WC) prefers, then a preamp will add the needed color to satisfy another person’s preferences. Seems like you have this agenda to just make viber6 wrong for some reason?? Meanwhile, viber6 is being reasonable by qualifying things "For me..." and understanding that other folks might like other colors. Dave |