Jay’s YT channel is valuable in its unique way of presenting sonic differences among highly prized components. This thread has unique value in allowing people to elaborate on their views in much greater detail than YT comments can. You can search people’s comments and see some of their systems. The key to the continued success of this thread will be mutual respect from everyone here. Also, a thread is a center of learning when there is respect. A teacher who insults the students doesn't accomplish anything because the students don't want to listen, but the teacher who just objectively presents valuable information is much more effective.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I agree with WC. This thread has devolved to point of being not worth the time. The Mc MA252 sounded good, especially for the price. But if you cannot hear the difference in quality between it and the stuff that normally plays here then blessed are you, for you will not need to spend any more to make you happy. To use a video analogy, the Mc compared to a nice 1080i TV picture. But in comparison to the Mephisto or Merrill or Collosseum or Luxman it was missing so much detail and texture and layers and definition and frequency extension and dynamics and ...... Again I say, if you cannot tell the difference or if you think a Mytek or inexpensive Bryston sound just as good, ....... well, ahem, then blessed are you. You are whom those products exist for. And that’s fine. Nothing in this should be read as pejorative. But all that said, if you really believe those things, it is informative of your audio judgment to those who can hear the difference |
Viber I own the Rossini as well. The settings are 0.2v, 0.6v, 2v, and 6v. I was told by my dealer that I should use the 2v setting if I’m using a preamp and 6v if direct however I find the 2v setting to be better in both applications so maybe you assumptions are correct. There is a DCS user group forum where a lot of this technical discussion takes place. You might want to check it out. |
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WC, Getting back to the Rossini with its choice of output settings, I read all the reviews of Rossini and Vivaldi, and company info, and couldn't find info about at what level the DCS analog circuitry attenuates or boosts the output. The only listening comment was from Chris Thomas in Hifi Plus from 2013, where he said that the 2V setting showed "more musical integrity" (whatever that means), and the 6V setting showed "more drive." This is consistent with your observation. Based on my knowledge of the recording industry, 1V is the standard full scale output, perhaps 2V for XLR, I forgot. Most CD players without volume controls have a fixed 2V analog output, which could be XLR. Lacking further info from DCS, I am merely guessing that using the 2V max output level, there is no attenuation, but using the 6V max output level, there is an additional 9.5 dB amplification circuit used. This is highly speculative on my part, because there is no mention of a fixed output without any attenuation or boost. So if I am correct, then the extra circuitry for the 9.5 dB boost would explain your observations that the 6V provides more oomph and fullness, and my guess that the 2V would provide more detail by having less analog circuitry in the path. I suspect that the 2V/6V differences are minor. |
One day big Jay will just shut doors here and take my efforts elsewhere. I think moderators will have a hell of a lot less work if I did that because they wouldn’t have to be involved anymore with this. My next platform will be under control. Stay tuned for more. 2021 will be EPIC. We are near the end of 2020. In life in general, you must reinvent yourself in order to keep pushing forward. You can’t keep doing the same thing and expect different results. Very soon, very very soon... To those of you who message me directly asking me to not go away from here and to not let "the others" stop me, I know that you all will follow me wherever I decide to go and when I do I will only be just a click away. Don’t worry. I’m tired of burning energy on pointless conversations. Let me keep doing me and my thing. All else is irrelevant. You all can build your own new thread and review the gear that you presently own. You all don’t need me here with the Mephistos, focals, momentums and Gryphons of the world. I’m sure you all can come up with better stuff to review for others. I’m not worried. Those of you who private message me, just sit tight. We will ride forward soon without any inconveniences. |
WC, In your terms, viber6 = music + sonic precision without regard to price. It just so happens that my Mytek Brooklyn Amp+ from $2500 is superior for precision to the Merrill 114 at $15K which I heard. Since your Merrill 118 (close to the 114) is superior to most other amps you have heard for sonic precision, judging from your comments, I will extrapolate and say that the Mytek is most likely superior for precision to most of your far more expensive amps. But the Mephisto is a possible exception, which could very well be superior in precision to my Mytek and Bryston amps. I don't have a monolithic view that all cheap things are better than all expensive things. Probably the average expensive amp is better than the average cheap amp. But even you correctly said that audio myth #1 is that more expensive means better, as with the Accuphase integrated amp. Well, the Accuphase at $22K is not what you consider in the expensive category, but this example shows that you shouldn't laugh at people who say that the $4K McIntosh is better for them than the much more expensive Mephisto. FWIW, for me, the Mephisto would be better than any tube amp, cheap or expensive. |
Greyhound- Thats a Good point and may be true that some are like that. Some will buy gear for many different reasons I guess. Some for the music, some for the looks, some some the pride of ownership, etc. Some like a Rolex Watch I just use my phone to tell time. So I just take what I can use from this for my purpose and leave the rest of it alone. It does often seem the discussion gets off track I agree. It is what it is I guess. |
Whitecamaross = understanding gear and what each component does. Greyhound = music Techno= who knows This thread? Reviewing and giving my personal opinion on ultra high end as well as cheap (such as McIntosh ma252, 13a, magnepan, etc) gear that some people might want. What I WILL NOT do is go into an argument of cheap vs expensive especially when I am the one who owns all this equipment. Oh and it ain’t bragging when it is a fact. If you are the world champ of the heavy weight division and your next component is talking trash about you and constantly keeps saying stuff to get into your head and piss you off etc etc leading into the fight and you walk into the ring and just slaughter your opponent making him look like a punk, I feel like you deserve to grab the mic and talk garbage to him and anyone else who doubted you. If you would like to see examples of this, please go to you tube and type ufc 253 and watch the main event. That kid Ismael Adesanaya talks trash even to the media but guess what? He backs it up by shutting up doubters and those who talk garbage about him not being worthy of the championship belt. He bashed the hell out of any doubter and yes even the press addressing everyone face to face and I RESPECT that BECAUSE HE BACKS IT UP. When you back up what you claim, I will be the first person who will shut up. You knock your opponent out with actions and then you can talk all the garbage to him afterwards. This is no different than saying "oh people who went to the military are lazy or don't work hard". Try saying that and see how that works out for you. See how many people will begin to post and come out of the woods looking for you. The thing is that there are people here such as the greyhounds and technos who get a kick out of getting a reaction from me. Mrdecibel was another person but he actually said he would just tune out of this channel for good and it appears he has finally done just that. This begs the question, why is it cool to get a reaction from me but when I do come out with my punching gloves to knock you all out then all of a sudden I look like the bad guy ? Can anyone explain that ? |
What i mean is The equipment is for one purpose ......Music . We all want to hear the best possible reproduction of the Music through the equipment. right ? It just seems to me that some people here are more hung-up on the equipment (cost-specs ..etc) rather than the sound of the Music through it. I think some stay with certain equipment because of its cost . An example is the Nordost Odin. I think that a lot of times it sounded lean, etched ,hyper detailed , and over analytical with most of the equipment used here but, because of its cost and stature, it stayed here for quite a while. "After all if it costs mega buck it has to sound good " seems to be the opinion of many.. |
I think people Here are into gear and music both. Some are more into the music some into gear. My wife loves music but it makes no difference to her if it’s on her Bose radio or my high end system. If she likes a song she likes it. She is into music. When you prefer a particular quality of Music reproduction now the gear comes into play and you become an audiophile . WC loves the gear and he will tell you that but not one without the other. Maybe he leans towards the gear more than some but that’s what this thread and his videos are about, the differences in gear. If it was total music we’d be discussing specific performers and concerts, musicians, talents etc. The “gear” interests everyone here, music preferences are different but gear is more what we can relate to each other through. Some like led zeppelin others Mozart But most here like It if it’s played through a good music system. That’s why we discuss the gear not the music. However I feel a good system allows you the music and the gear disappears. Then it’s hard not to discuss the music. |
Ok so performance and preference are two different things. However I will agree that performance doesn’t necessarily translate to preference. This is why there is such contention here. When you say performance what does that mean? Better bass, more detail bigger soundstage better focus, less distortion, better frequency extremes etc. the Mephisto may very well be have better performance in many areas but some will still prefer the McIntosh even if it has lower “performance“ as evidenced by XYZ. I have heard some ridiculously expensive speakers and amps and I can appreciate what they do. However I can sit down with a pair of old Quad 57s and prefer them in many ways to the more expensive stuff. It depends on what you value in in the musical presentation . Some prefer tubes some Prefer solid state. I may like the less dynamic rolled off sound. Doesn’t mean it outperforms the expensive speaker it just means I prefer it. Stating one is “Better” will alway receive opposition. No one can argue with your preference, it’s yours. If you say you prefer the McIntosh then you prefer it and that is fine. McIntosh is famous for their sound drawing a lot of people in. Also there is something to be said for price, this business of cost no object is BS. Cost always enters into it period. I thought the McIntosh was very nice sounding. Do I prefer it long term probably not. I prefer more detail and neutrality because I think I’d get bored after a while because I know how I am. However without Hearing it more or owning it I wouldn’t know for sure. |
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Tecno, that’s not what he said. I seek high end and low end products in my store. I don’t think anyone is offended if I tell them a product that is ten times the cost of what they are looking at would be a better quality, longer life potentially, and way outperform it. And if they were offended, I think it would be better for them to find a big box store to do biz with, because they will think their low prices product should perform like a top of the line, and there’s no way I could satisfy them. It’s there a place and need for lower priced products? Of course there is. Not everyone can afford the Bentley, but most would be interested in knowing what’s the best for their budget. Also it could be that they want a secondary system for a bedroom, and already spent for the Bentley in the main listening area. |
As a true professional, I would never laugh at those who would not agree with me, who sought a different sound as mine, or who would think that a more expensive piece, had to be better. This....is not professional.....this, is not a consultant....a true consultant, is one who helps others, with the sound that is best for them, rather then what is best for him. |
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WC, I will listen for myself. It is not an issue of money. Tube lovers or euphonic SS lovers who like soft sound will prefer those amps to the Mephisto, whether cheap or expensive. The lover of that type of sound won't think he/she is stupid. Tube lovers of that type of sound will say that SS lovers who don't hear the "magic or naturalness of tubes" are stupid. |
Dennis Palmer2 hours agoTubes sound more REAL!!! I love it !!! Seems like most people Agree with techno_dude |
WC, OK, but was 2V better for clarity/detail while being anemic and less full than 6V? The differences were probably slight, right? I wish all serious DAC's would dispense with the volume control, which is flawed as goodsource explained. In principle, taking a microphone signal which is analog, converting it to digital, and then back again to analog should not have any gain. A DAC could be dedicated to just the D/A, as in the Esoteric I believe. Then let the dedicated analog preamp do the best job of amplifying, with the analog volume control. It is bad enough that the microphone needs its own preamp, and the mixing board is a nest of electronics. All this circuitry is a big reason why there is a big gap between live sound and recordings. |
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Techno, Reasonable point that Be is a metal and resonates. Ribbons are usually aluminum, also a metal. But the Maggie ribbon is one of the top HF tweeters around, and mostly everyone regards it as smooth and detailed. An electrostatic membrane is plastic mylar tightly controlled by the metal stators on both sides of the mylar. Ceramic tweeters are also excellent. I think all materials resonate in different modes. The issue is how good the diaphragm is controlled by magnetic or electric fields. Most tweeters are excellent performers, even cheap ones with inferior designs. Glare is caused by integration problems with midrange drivers, crossover electronics, box resonances, etc. |
Viber, beryllium is a metal and it resonates as any metal. I hear that « sheen » everytime I listen to Focal speakers. Magico thin coats their beryllium tweeters with the same diamond very thin spayed layer that B&W uses. Explain to me , technically and scientifically as you usually can , why they do so if the metal that is beryllium is not the culprit in its own atoms... That aside , every midwoofer will be slower than any good tweeter. It’s far from being the reason of the slight glare a beryllium tweeter produces. |
Techno, The problem with Be tweeters in most speakers is not the tweeter, but the fact that the lower freq drivers are slower with more distortion than the tweeter, so the overall sound could be discontinuous and incoherent. But that's why I like the design of the Paradigm Persona model B, which uses a Be driver for midrange and bass down to about 50 Hz. It also makes the tweeter array concept for the Tektons very appealing. Those tweeters handle the midrange down to 300 Hz for the double array, and 600 Hz for the single array. Listeners to Tektons note their coherence. I imagine that the coherence will be just as good with the Be tweeters, but with even better resolution across the whole freq range above 300 or 600 Hz. Many people are eagerly awaiting the experiences of people who have compared Be and stock tweeters on Tektons. |
Jetter, Good question. I use my Benchmark DAC1 with attenuation of roughly 10-20 dB with my Bryston amp gain of 29 dB, but with att of 4-14 dB when the Bryston gain is 23 dB to yield the same SPL. I have not noticed any difference in resolution or tone quality either way, but I really should set the att to 0 where the rotary volume control (VC) is fully clockwise, and use the VC on my analog EQ. Too bad the weak link of my Rane EQ is a small rotary low quality VC. Mrdecibel suggested upgrading the VC on the Rane. Having been enlightened by goodsource's info, I now believe that the best way to obtain highest resolution and tonal purity for most people is to set the DAC VC to zero att where all the digits are used for maximum resolution, then use the analog VC on the preamp which is high quality. But analog VC's have problems at the lower part of the range, which is high att, and you get the smallest steps at the high part of the dial, which is the lowest att. I see that the Rossini DAC has options for output of 2V, 4V, 6V, so that the VC of the preamp may be used with different att. It all depends on the efficiency of the speakers and your listening SPL. However, I don't know whether the 2V setting is already attenuated by a factor of 3 for voltage, which is a factor of 9 for power, or about 9.5 dB. If it is attenuated, then that is a disadvantage by throwing away bits, so I still say that the 6V setting would be better for resolution. On the other hand, if the 2V setting is the one for no att and the 6V setting is actually including 9.5 dB gain, then that is another gain stage which is unwanted when you have a better quality gain stage in the analog preamp added. Maybe WC can shed light on this if he has tried the 2V setting in the Rossini with a higher gain in the preamp, vs the 6V setting in the Rossini with a lower gain in the preamp, for the same SPL. |
techno You can buy $500 suit off the rack or have one custom made for $10000 neither craftsman grew the cotton, made the thread, or wove the cloth. So what's your point? Scan Speak has worked with many manufacturers custom making parts and speakers to their spec having the expertise and years of experience and the necessary production machinery. FYI. GM didn't make the tires on your car either. |
In short, 'bit-stripping' with high-end DAC units is a thing way of the past. Levinson gear, already back in the 90s left this method behind by using resistor ladder attenuation in their analogue output stage. It's unimaginable that ANY present high-end gear would still use this sound degrating cheap attenuation method. M. 🇿🇦 |
I don’t think any beryllium tweeter speaker will ever fully satisfy WC. After many years of reading this thread , one think we all acknowledge is that WC is allergic to any hint at glare. Each time he gets glare or hotness, he tries to tame it with tweaking...rolled of warmer cables , speaker toe in, etc. Beryllium is excellent and full of detail, but you will always get a typical caracter with it. Even with tweaking the system to death. It resonates less than any metal, but it still resonates ! Soft domes just rules. Wilson and Dynaudio has got this right. Dynaudio makes them in house. Wilson gets them from Scanspeak in Denmark, and this is why I don’t like Wilson...supposed to be a leader in their field with very high msrp. They can’t even make their own drivers, they only have specialized in making complex stiff boxes and assembling crossovers. Focal and Dynaudio plays in a whole different higher league imho. |
goodsource, You hit the nail on the head. The real disadvantage of DAC direct is the poor results with the digital volume control at high attenuation. This is the equivalent of cutting the bits drastically, such as from 16 bits at no attenuation to 4 bits at 72 dB (72 = 12 x 6) of attenuation for CD’s. Say that at no attenuation the SPL is 90 dB, so to hear very low SPL of 18 dB, you only get 4 bits of resolution. With only 4 bits, a sine wave will look like a jagged jerky mess, so this explains how the sound at low levels is unnatural. I had forgotten about this point, and thanks for pointing this out. My experience has been with analog sources and analog volume controls, so I found that eliminating an extra gain stage from a line stage yields more transparency. I have been impressed with the transparency of the Christine preamp, which alters the transparency very little. If WC presented moderately loud music at very low levels, with large attenuation, the DAC direct would undoubtedly have less clarity/purity vs using the added preamp for volume control. However, if he presented very soft music with the DAC at little attenuation, then the weakness of the digital volume control would be greatly lessened. In this case, the DAC direct connection might be superior to adding the preamp, for clarity/purity. Therefore, the added preamp will have more clarity/purity if there is large attenuation, but possibly less clarity/purity at low attenuation. Practically speaking, most people who are going DAC direct use their volume controls at middle settings, where there is significant attenuation, chopping off lots of bits. If they used the DAC with no attenuation but used the analog volume control with the appropriate attenuation, I agree that in most cases using digital volume controls, DAC direct would show less clarity/purity. |
folks, catching up messages after a long time. i was surprised to see preamp vs dac direct debate cropping up again and again. for me having an pre-amp is a must and is a no brainer i have a dcs rossini and have done countless hours of listening to come to this conclusion. the biggest problem for dac direct is that, volume control is done in digital domain and to put it simply, bits are shaved off to achieve this and this is where you loose accuracy and precision. conventional wisdom and engineering design has always proved that volume control done over analog domain is far superior than microprocessor based digital volume control. this is especially true for lower volume listening as well. my assessment is you do not even need a very expensive pre-amp.say for example a rossini plus clock is 30k, even a 740p simaudio preamp at 9k or a passive preamp like townshend allegri reference 7k will do a stellar job. theoretically of course better performance , precision and accuracy can be achieved over digital domain but i feel even high end dac manufacturers have not invested in coming up with those solutions because this would increase their cost and they also know that most audiophiles who buy high end dacs also buy a good preamp. |
