"Kren says he hasn't been paying attention lately but yet he responds each time you mention his name in here?"
You want more kren, just mention you are thinking about getting a Wilson speaker.
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Still prefer the Essence on the Final Essence vs Pass shootout. I hear more information and detail with the Essence. Looks like you adjusted the volume on the dac to better level match the two presentations.
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Really good video Jay...a lot of food for thought. Definitely know the reviewer's reference point. What gear does he / she own, and have owned. Do they have a background in music, electronics, acoustics etc...As far as reviewers having dedicated listening rooms, I have heard some god-awful dedicated listening rooms. I have also heard some fantastic dedicated listening rooms and really great living room systems too. Dedicated or not, it's what you do to the room that matters.
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Really good post kren. Completely agree. |
A better server than the Aurender W20SE (22k retail)....wow this is a tough crowd. |
"Some people don't care much about clarity or fidelity, and just want to bang out sound that pleases them, as with other sensory experiences like food, drink, love making, etc."
Yep...banging out sounds of love making is what I'm here for.
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Thanks riaa, you're the best. I might just take you up on that....just not too much clarity or fidelity please.
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Good post Jay. A while back I ordered a 2 pack of Owens Corning Acoustic panels (24"x48") which are also paintable. I use one in front of my TV and one for first reflection (side). Made a big difference in soundstage, focus and clarity, especially on vocal detail.
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I've heard DAC direct to amp many times followed by inserting a preamp and repeating the track. I listen at low to moderate levels and I agree that there seems to be more info Dac direct but I always come away feeling the sound is thin and threadbare....even at low levels.
The latest shootout (Round 1: Pass labs X600.8 versus Gryphon Essence monoblocks) delivered more of the same tonal and clarity differences between Gryphon and Pass. I hear more information, detail and neutrality with the Essence monos. The Pass gear sounds thicker, warmer and less detailed. With lesser recordings the Pass amps might be easier to listen to. It's to Gryphon's credit, even with stock PC's it's still more transparent and detailed. I think to get these two sets of monos closer in tonality I would try Odin1 PC's on the Pass monos and Dragon PC's on the Essence. The Odin1 PC's on the Pass amps would add detail and lean the tone out a bit while the Dragon PC's on the Essence monos would warm up the sound by rolling off the top end and boosting the bottom end.....In the end the Essence monos would still be more detailed and neutral. YMMV
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viber, I agree with most of your statements however I believe your need for utmost clarity and pronounced top end stems from your age and lifestyle. While (I'm guessing) most people would prefer a preamp in a system you prefer a DAC direct to amp setup because it is more detailed and has a more emphasized top end. You being a musician for most of your life, playing and listening in loud environments has most likely resulted in moderate hearing loss, especially the top end. I'm guessing you have your Rane EQ set @ +10 db starting at around 5-6k hz up to 20k hz. So while you find an elevated top end normal and tonally pleasing, audiophiles in the 30-50 year old range would find it harsh, threadbare and fatiguing.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with your preferring a tipped up frequency balance. It's what you require to counterbalance your hearing loss.
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@kren,
My post wasn't meant to be mean and I wasn't assuming anything. I believe viber has stated to be 70+ years of age and has played in a string section of an orchestra for many years. Statistics show hearing loss (top end most prominently) to be the first to go.
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Maybe we should all get together and 'group buy' the PSA m1200.
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I bought my Mola Mola Makua preamp / DAC from Bill Parish (GTT Audio). Wonderful to deal with.
+1 carey, I also think the Constellation / M6 was very good.....right up there with Pandora / Antileon EVO / M6.
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+1 riaa
If Jay gets another Wilson speaker it will be krens thread....yawn. |
I'm also getting caught up with the thread and Youtube. Fantastic sound with the XLF's. Such detail and vibrant sound. Looking forward to hearing more of the gear you will bring in for them. Thanks for all of the effort you go through....we are all fortunate to ride along with you.
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I started with SR black, then went to blue and now have orange in my server, preamp and amp. They increased detail in my system without harshness....love them.
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Another observation on aftermarket fuses: It has been my experience that aftermarket fuses should be used AFTER the system has been completely dialed in. Speakers should be broken in, correctly placed and spiked (or footer). Components should be fully broken in and isolated (footers or stand). Cables chosen to compliment components, speakers and room. Room treatment applied to optimized smooth response.....In other words, fuses should be one of the last upgrades made after all else is optimized....IMO
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It seems to me that there was just as much hate on the M6 as the XLF. I remember reading someone saying the M6 had a feminine sound vs a masculine sound from Wilson....followed by a poster asking if the M6 came in the color pink?
I wonder why speakers (more than anything else) bring out the hate in people.
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“Again, what is the objective?”
I think Jay is a gear head....absolutely no offense towards Jay. Jay loves fast cars and hi end audio gear. I believe the thrill for him is to experience as much as the industry has to offer and file it for future use to help others achieve their goals in this crazy hobby. I doubt very seriously he is making enough money to warrant all of the work and effort he goes through. We all benefit from his obsession....I know I have, as well as most of my friends. Huge props to you my friend for putting up with all the BS shoveled your way.
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Jay, I believe we talked about CH Precision amps before. I am interested in their A1.5 stereo amp. You told me the resale on that brand was not so good....are you rethinking that?
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We are voting on the DAC that compliments the XLF's, Gryphon electronics, SR cables and Jay's room. DAC #2 sounds more refined while remaining highly detailed. The XLF's (to my ears) have an extremely detailed, slightly forward and tilted up tonal balance. DAC #2 takes that slight edginess away from the presentation and to me is more musical. Two videos and two #2 votes for me.
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@chazzzy007
"I am voting for the best DAC. Not what sounds best with this system. I am looking at all performance parameters and voting for the DAC I think is doing the best job of da conversion."
Not sure how you can say one DAC is better than the other. DAC #2 might sound best in Jay's room at this time (with current associated equipment) but with the M6's it might be DAC #1 that sounds best....It's all about system matching, not what people think is the best all around. IMO
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I agree with viber and Jay that the perceived HF emphasis of the XLF's is by design. Magico with their beryllium tweeter rolls off the top end by design. I always thought the Focal Stella with its beryllium tweeter should be rolled off a little. Beautiful sounding speaker but a little fatiguing for me.
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Oh boy...another M6 coming soon? |
I don't think viber has poor listening skills. I do think he's very opinionated and feels the need to convince everyone that what he hears and prefers is absolute....there's a difference. High end home audio is very subjective. I still think there's no 'best', only personal preferences and system synergies.
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I miss blumartini and almarg. Both were extremely knowledgeable and true gentleman....always happy to help a fellow audiophile.
Jay I totally agree with your last video about the diminishing returns of DAC's. I believe I would have to spend 30k+ to hear a worthwhile improvement over my Mola Mola DAC. I'm guessing the same would apply to servers. I have heard improvements moving up the Innuos line of servers and going from an Aurender N100h to an Innuos Zenith SE was a very nice improvement all around. You heard the Taiko Extreme at Mike's place and I believe you were impressed with the upgraded USB card Mike had just installed. You have 2 very impressive Aurender servers in house. Have you thought about a server shootout? Or would that put the YouTube crowd to sleep?
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I agree with you Dave. I heard #2 sounding warmer, richer and more refined than #1 as did most people that voted. Of course YouTube has limitations that restrict us from hearing soundstage and dynamics etc....I think the only thing we can really hear on these videos is tonality, and maybe not even that. Kind of makes me wonder about future videos and what is really being heard in the room....nothing like being there.
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Jay,
The Magico M3 DOES have adjustable Mpods for leveling purposes. The M2 and M6 do not. |
@ron17
Both M2 and M3 MPods height is adjustable from the top. The M6 Mpods height can be adjusted as well, just not as conveniently.
@henry201
I reviewed the M3 manual and it states (and shows a photo)
"USING A 1⁄4” HEX WRENCH, ADJUST AND LEVEL THE M-POD BY TURNING THE EXPOSED STUD. WHEN THE IDEAL POSITION HAS BEEN ACQUIRED, CAREFULLY THREAD ON THE M-POD TOP."
Both the M2 and M6 manual omit these leveling instructions. Are you saying leveling the M2 and M6 is performed the same way?
Jay, sorry for getting off track but as you remember you and I discussed leveling the M6 when you had them. I thought you told me you contacted Magico about leveling the M6 and was told it was not possible.
Thank you henry201
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@lucky_doggg7
Dr. Watkins Jr. performed a 2 level spinal fusion on me 6 years ago. I had a very physical job, lots of weight lifting and non stop sports. I still weight train, swim and love sports....just a fraction of what I used to do.
Now like zprr said. Back to audio talk.
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Jay,
Your 'pros and cons' videos are so informational...nobody is as honest and candid as you are. Would love a 'pros and cons' vid on Constellation Audio.
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MSB Select2 / Boulder 2110 / Boulder 3060 / Focal Maestro Utopia Evo to my ears and through YouTube has been the best sound you've had in your room....by far.
As for your question about which component is the most important in one's system, I think it has to do a lot with the level of your system. At the level you are at, I wouldn't argue about the DAC being the most important component. At a lesser level I think it might be the speakers. Definitely up for debate.
Thanks for an unbelievable ride.
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I think most of us understand the importance of cables and cable system matching. Can't wait to hear the new cables.
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OK so far we have...
TOP GROUP
Boulder (new Boulder)
Gryphon
Block Audio (Mike's choice)
Soulution
Constellation
Dan D'Agostino (Momentum series) **** Honorable mention
MIDDLE GROUP
Simaudio
Jeff Rowland
Merrill Audio
Pass Labs
I believe that was all that has been mentioned. Seems to me the middle group is missing a few...like, Luxman, Ayre, Classe Audio, Plinius?
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Jay,
Your progressive, cutting edge, no BS 'tell it like you hear it' approach is so refreshing. You've been going full out for so long....must be exhausting. Looking forward to your impressions and completing the middle group amps list (where most of us live).
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Well, that reveal was worth the wait....very impressive! Can't wait to hear what you do with them.
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Jay,
Can't believe Plinius amps didn't make the middle tier group list. I've owned the SB 301 mk2 and I know you have also, in addition to the the SA 103. The SB 301 mk2 had killer bass with an almost tube like midrange and a clear top end. The top end got a little edgy when pushed hard but that would be my only knock on the amp.
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@coltrane1,
Jay has owned the Plinius SB-301mk2 and the SA-103 stereo amps. I bought the SB-301mk2 from him and loved it. I know he liked it at the time and liked the SA-103 even more. I am shocked neither one of these amps made his 'middle tier' group of amps. If he places Plinius in the bottom tier 'dead last' group then I'll be scratching my head also.
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Jay,
I don't think any of us really comprehend the work involved in what you do in your spare time. We are all grateful and wiser because of it. Thank you.
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@flame,
"Jay, you must recognise that your content both here and on YouTube - whilst enjoyable and entertaining - has now evolved to become commercial in nature."
Steve Williams (Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator) of WBF is a Critical Mass dealer that constantly promotes the products he sells in WBF. Jay is not a dealer, just an audiophile reviewer. How has Jay's thread and his YouTube channel become 'commercial in nature' while Steve's has not?
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Very cool...thanks viber. |
I can't argue with what you are hearing in your system and understand what you are saying but I believe really good isolation products don't so much add detail but reduce vibration which we hear as distortion. That's what the Artesania amp stands did for your ultra high end amps. I still think more experimenting is in order here. Maybe the same thing that viber is doing by sending you his amp to compare to your amps would be a good idea with isolation products....or we could just send liquor.
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I agree with ricevs on isolation products. If my memory serves me correctly Jay has tried lower level Stillpoints which I don't believe he ever commented on, Critical Mass amp stands and footers which didn't seem to work with any of his gear and Artesania amp stands which he absolutely loved. I think to 'broad brush' all footers as having "no place with ultra high end" after only trying a few products is counterproductive to Jay's Audio Lab and the audiophiles who follow him.
I have tried many isolation products and prefer ceramic ball bearing type devices over damping materials used in products like Critical Mass. Of course that is my own personal opinion in my system....YMMV
My system isn't as 'ultra high end' as Jay's but I have heard many 'ultra high end' systems that used isolation footers, racks, amp stands and speaker feet that absolutely blew me away.
I think more testing with different styles of footers would be appropriate here.
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How about not using matching preamp and amps. I believe viber thinks the 725 preamp is the most neutral preamp. Pair that with the Centaur monos. Can't do vibers amp against the tube VAC monos. That way we all know what is being played (from Jay's gear). DAC direct might be a little too edgy.
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First of all this is not an even playing field. Having the undisclosed preamp / amp go against the undisclosed preamp / Rogue amp gives a huge advantage to the undisclosed pre / amp combo. I suggested the 725 preamp used for both the Rogue and the unknown amps....However, going DAC direct into all amps sounds like a fair test also. I'm good either way. Thanks to both parties for their time and effort.
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"No plans of getting other speakers unless i magically run into one pair of speakers that are on my wish list."
Magically....is that a hint? lol |
Well evidently you have more time than I do to go looking for quotes. Maybe Jay can clear things up here.
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