Ref10 is toast. You just don’t need it anymore. Redondant tube stages. Less is more... less loss as you save 2 interconnect contacts.
I always knew that preamps were not needed anymore. Viber is of the same opinion. Preamps are old story. These are the times of dacs with output tube stage, and dacs with quality high gain ss class A variable output.
Sure, brands like ARC and cable retailers dont like this, but this is where the market is now going.
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No review yet. I know why. Because WC is hesitating between Ref10 and Lampi.
Think about it guys. Which one to keep and which one to resale. Every word written will count and affect value of the one that is being put in classified. Would you buy a Ref10 if you knew you could replace it with a Lampi one box solution... I would not, I would get the Lampi to have dac + pre ... one less powercord and interconnect pair also !...
And now think about relations and fan club that swear by ARC preamplifiers... They are a pretty heavy beast to kick on the foot...
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There is a thread on another forum that explains that the ARC Ref6 pre has a very cheap ( 15$) volume pot. A buyer has had reliability redondant troubles with it. He had to replaced the pot 2 times...
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The offended lost no time to defend the overpriced ARC. Sure, most dacs and even costly prestigious ones have poor variable output stage. DcS and Ps Audio have both pretty basic digital atténuation.
But the best dacs have everything to omit the need for an additional preamp. APL DSD MR is one of them.
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Sooner or later, it will be time to let go of the Ref10 and all extra cables attached to it ( which are just messing with signal integrity after all) . You might as well divorce from it now while it still has a very good resale value. Think future...you’ve just heard what the Lampi Pacific can do...and it’s still not broken in...and your still not using sota xlr cables...and you still haven’t upgraded tubes...
Ref 10 is toasted already. It should go where it had always belonged, in it’s double box ready to ship to a new owner. |
At it’s msrp, the Ref10 should have included a sota dac module inside it from the moment ARC put it on market...
Other makers have done it...Hegel, Lyngdorf, Naim, Classe, etc.
Take for example the Mac C2600. Tubes, sota ( Wadia di322 based) dac module, and phono module included for 7k. Talk about value... |
Like always, viber you are right on.
I would even go further. Most top end system owners I know have eliminated the preamp from the chain. The best dacs , like the Lampi Pacific, can drive sota amplifiers directly.
Same think with vinyl. The best dacs, like the tube based Lampi Pacific or APL DSD MR, can sound as organic and natural as turntables. Without the cons.
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MF Titan seems a bargain at around 12k used. That if someone needs that much power. Most people won’t, and a more simple design bringing more purity will be the key to very good sound.
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How is Musical Fidelity not a boutique brand ? There are quite a few reviews of the Titan online also.
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A lower priced amp that beats the more expensive Block Audio monos.
I have a feeling we ´re going to read about synergy again......🤫 Let’s not offend anybody...
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And, from what was described, the sound through the Ref10 is marginaly better than the Lampi direct to amp. Probably just a matter of coloration, and taste, that does not justify the additional 30k for 99% of people.
Lampi wins, ARC Ref10 owners please don’t make a seizure about it...
Fatality..
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Ref10 is an audio dinosaur 🦕.. Old story in a new world were less is more.
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As good as they are, for that price, they should have included dacs. Lazy ARC engineers, looking at the market from up there...
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Still, I would never buy nor a Ref6 nor a Ref10 , and it’s not that I can’t afford them. Mucho overpriced for what they are. That being said, I would not hesitate to buy the Lampi Pacific dac with internal pre option. Much more value into that smart buy, I don’t care if the ARC is 1% better on soundstage or tonal coloration... |
Someone can get that same euphonic and large soundstage for a lot less than what ARC ask for it.
Someone will loose micro details adding it in any chain system, as opposed to a straight connection the Lampi Pacific offers.
A REF6 could be a nice buy at 8k street price , IF AND ONlY IF it had a sota dac module included... That would be great.
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Knowing the Ref6 has had pot reliability problems, I would not touch it at retail price. Lazy and greedy engineers, a dac module should have been included. If McIntosh and Classe can do it, so can ARC. Talk about pushing the insult...
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Oh yes viber, they finally saw the light.
We finally all agree that if the dac has enough gain to drive the amps, it can sound better than with an ARC pre in the chain.
And we also agree that with a nice Ref6 or Ref10 in the chain, someone can be sure to have enough gain to play anything ( plus additional inputs) And if the euphonics that it brings makes the owner happy plus the pride of ownership, so be it. Amen.
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A lot of these shootouts between amps, should they be conducted blindly with same sound level and cables, would result in no clear winner most of the time. Not saying it all sound the same, sure some are a little clearer, larger, more dynamic, etc.
WC, my next move should be a change of speakers as they are the weak link in my rig right now. The dac will have to wait. ( my lastest move beiing the upgrade of the power cable on the Lux M900u to a Shunyata Alpha NR)
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Guys, there seems to be a ´´woofy’´ seller in the classified who puts funny pics of his dog with sunglasses in a car. Sorry, I could not stop laughing when I surfed the adds so I thought I’d share what I saw. 🙃
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Well , WC, your Ref10 can now serve to finance something else on your ´´ to try’´ list. And will surely make a new happy owner somewhere.
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Endgame move is obviously getting XLR outputs on the Pacific. All the gain someone would need, plus better sound as it should be by experience.
That should seal the Ref10 coffin once and for all. |
That is a cool acquisition in the C2600. Mine is the solid state C47, the 2600 is said to be warmer and more euphonic..
That beeing said , the built in dac is what surprised me the most. It made me sell my 8k dedicated dac, and simplified my system. ( also, I upgraded the internal power supply fuse. ) The dac module is a miniatured Wadia DI322 variant, using the famous ESS Sabre 9018 we see everywhere.
I am really looking foward to read you about it. Especially if you try the internal dac, usb wired. I think you will be impressed considering the low cost of this piece, but the Lampi Pacific should be better I concur. Don’t hesitate to boost the treble on the pre, or else it can sound a bit anemic on warm speakers. |
WC, have you listened to the C2600 driving the Block Audio yet ?
In my setup, the only thing my 8k dac was better at than the inboard dac inside the pre was...bass. More bass and goes lower with the dedicated dac.
Aside from bass, I believe the midrange and highs of the included dac in the C47 can compete with pricer products, |
@maguiar,
I own Verity Rienzi speakers , and drive them with a Luxman M900u. Superb results , no doubt.
The Otellos are supposed to be even better ! With the flagship Lux, you can go up the Verity line up to the Sarastro IIs. You won’t be limited by the amp. |
WC and Viber, amen to your words.
Now lets get back to buisness and plug that Mac C2600. May it compete or plainly suck, I’ m freaking curious to learn about it ! 😁 |
Great WC. Bold and forward is pretty much how Sabre 9018 chip is known to be. I agree with your description, I also thought the same when I compared it to my 8k dac, the dedicated dac was smoother up top...almost truncated....I think it was the dsd filter that cuts the very top highs. It took me some time to adjust to the more forward sound of the Sabre dac in the Mac pre. In the end it matched my laid back polite speakers better.
I really enjoy that midrange boldness about it. It makes the instruments sound richer, my other dac was thinner sounding in the low mids.
Sure, it would be very interesting to know about how the flagship Ayre preamp compares. But , that Lampi will be very hard to detrone.
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Nice review WC.
The vocals have less pop because you have to boost the treble , as Mac preamps are tuned to the darker side. I have to put around +5 to +7 treble depending of the music playing on my C47. Then the vocals and highs are waiking up. And the C2600 is said to be warmer than the C47 and C52...
The dac is very surprising for the money , isn’t it ? Can you eleborate as to how the Pacific is better than the C2600 used as dac and pre for both.
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Shadorne,
My speakers are on the very polite side, and the Mac preamp is a bit dark and warm ( Mac house sound) So my speakers benefit from the treble tone control.
That being said, if I had Focal or B&W speakers ( wich are a bit tilt up in the highs) the tone controls would most probably be off. I believe that is why Mac gear pairs really well with those two speaker brands. |
Shunyata for power cables. Nordost for speaker cables.
This is the rule, my rule, and pretty sure it rules...
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A little off topic.
I just finished cleaning all contacts of my system with 99% isopropyl alcool. A collegue strongly recommended doing it.
Hell, yes it does make a difference. I have gained clarity. Very recommended !! Don’t hesitate guys. Easy no cost tweak.
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A very good powercord. But Sigma NR is supposed to be much better. A guy on whats best has compared them , and he came to that obvious conclusion.
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Sure , the Odin is very good. But you did not compare it directly to the Sigma NR on the dac because he NR you brought back from the shop are 20 amp IEC. You sre comparing ODin to WW on the dac, sure the WW will get spanked big time and your jaw will drop.
Try one Sigma NR or Alpha NR ON YOUR DAC , it could save you a lot.
We cannot know if Odin beats Sigma NR , if they were not plugged to the same piece of gear. Only then we will know. |
I believe WC is experiencing his first top tier powercord ON HIS DAC. This is where they make the biggest difference, at the top of the system chain.
Yes, he can achieve that same performance ( on the dac) for less money. I already suggested a Shunyata NR, but if I remember right the one Sigma he tried couple weeks ago was a 20 Amp. female IEC that could not fit his Esoteric dac at the time. |
Shunyata Sigma NR failed WC, because he had a crappy powercord on the dac while doing his tests. Bottlenecked big time by the first piece in the chain. Odin does wonders now , because it is plugged on the dac where everything starts.
Please WC, just do the real test, Odin vs Sigma on the dac. We would all benefit from that huge matchup. Win or loose , we should learn a lot from that kind of test. |
The real question is why does your dealer doesn’t want to let you borrow a single 15 A Shunyata Sigma to try on your dac...a top tier customer like you.
First logical answer to that question is...
to be able to sell to a very deep pocket customer a 6 times more expensive Nordost Odin.
Second logical answer is...
your dealer does not want the readers to know that we can equal or best an Odin with a far less expensive Sigma. And you don’t want to offend that dealer in doing so.
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That dealer who does not have a Sigma NR 15A in stock. Heck he must have an Alpha NR 15 A in stock, for you try home.
Music direct has a 60 day satisfaction guarantee. |
I will send you my Alpha NR , if and only if you return the Odin to your dealer so that you are not biased by a the fact you just purchased a much pricier powercord...
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Audiolabyrinth,
Agreed, one can get the same performance as Odin for much less money.
Viber would say, Odin boost the high frequencies so that it’s waking up the rolled off Ref10 and Neoliths...
It is well known that Nordost is very fast , and a bit tilted up in the highs. They also cut a bit on lower midrange richness density. Articulate fast bass though. |
Last post is thread pollution and full of hate.
Obviously, Viber or anybody does not deserve such treatment.
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jetter, I am not a pro reviewer, just a dude who has seen a lot of audio gear pass in his living room.
ezzigi, agreed with that review, Nordost Valhalla or Odin for power cable NO ( much overpriced)
Shunyata for power cable YES. Nordost Valhalla 2 or Odin for speaker cables YES. Nordost top tier speaker cables are the best you can find. They are truly remarkable. Expensive yes, but the very best have a cost. Not their powercables though.
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Agreed with Viber.
Let this thread go back on track, ( and the clowns go back to silence).
Now Odin 1 power cord is supposed to far inferior to Odin 2.
Much like the Valhalla 1 is much inferior to Valhalla 2...and yes I have heard both on the same system. It’s not even close, the older Noordost series suffers from lack of midrange richness and are prone to leanness. I know this, I have experienced this, it is a fact. I hope WC that you don’t need any grand jury written proof of this for it to be acceptable input to your thread... Remember , your thread would be nothingness without us the followers. We have faith in your honesty, please show to same to ours.
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Well, maybe the new Parasound duo is better than their older line. Maybe you are just overestimating the overall difference the block audio amplifiers bring to the table compared to that new Parasound amp.
. DAC/preamp plays a good part of the final result you are earing. You could just bring your Lampi and Odin 1 and plug it in the Parasound amp at the show, and you would get a good part of what you have home....
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Neoliths sucks at most shows.
Neoliths sucks at most dealers.
Neotliths sucks at most W.A.F.
Niche market speakers for the very sophisticated buyer indeed...
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Dealer or not, I also don’t get speakers you have to plug in the wall which signal has to go through a lot of electronics. They will never be as transparent as a speaker with a sota minimalist crossover.
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How about Magnepan ? No ac plugging needed.
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Interesting read WC and others, Nordost Odin 2 speaker cables 😋😋Wow a lucky guy you are WC !
Off the thread if if I may. I just bought a used mint pair of Dynaudio Special 40 to try. I could not resist as I got a good price, and always wanted to try a pair of these.
Fun little monitors. That 28 mm soft dome tweeter ( Esotar) is impressive. Smooth and resolute. ( it plays down to 1000 hz, strong neodymium magnet behind a 28 mm dome) I can say it is one on the best soft domes outhere, along with the Scanspeak ring dome one used on Wilson speakers.
I think Magico and B&W beryllium and diamond tweets are a bit better. But still, very impressive how engineers have come to make such good sounding sota soft domes tweets these days !
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Did I miss something.
Just an audio thread. Not the saint Bible. Just relax. |
WC is reported being on heavy pills, for having realized the Oppo 205 sounds just as good as the best dacs he tried in his room...
😱
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