I may be wrong, maybe lesser amps can be compensated with sota preamps in the chain. I am not a big buck preamplifier believer , I am more of guy of amplifier doing the job of giving the sweetness , tone and soundstage to the speakers. Maybe the Ref 10 can do that earlier in the chain.
WC , would you say the Neoliths or 15A ( electrostatics) are much better at putting air between the instruments than the best dynamic speakers you eard ? Or just a little bit better . |
The Plinius experience is an eye opener. Now we know that Dag integrated is much overrated and overpriced. It looks very expensive though...
WC, you most probably can improove the Plinius sound by popping the hood and upgrade those 2 fuses per channel that seems to be in the signal path. Cheap trick, surprising results. |
WC, I’m glad you are enjoying your system, very 😎 cool.
Like Viber says, it may not be too late to cancel the block audio order. If they tend to the warm and polite side like the Dag and Gryphon, they most probably will not be of the same synergy that pleases you so much ...with the ARC - Plinius combo.
Also, please try a Shunyata NR powercord on the dac instead of the ww. The noise reduction technology is a game changer, trust me on this , you will gain clarity and resolution even more.
Finally, I doubt the bass of the Magicos S5 or Wilson Sacha 2 , etc. is mediocre at best. Sure you get a lot more spl with the Neolith and Vivid and that suits your electronic music taste, but please lets not confuse spl with quality. I m sure the bass quality of the Magico is world class for somebody like me who listen mostly to jazz.
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Bi wiring the best speaker in the world...
I’m thinking wow, at this level, with all the engeneering and development gone into such a costly pair...
does not compute, complete shutdown, I will be back when brain finish reseting.
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WC, I never wrote anything about bi amping. Please read careffully, BI WIRING.
BI WIRING does not improve sound quality, if the straps ( jumpers) used are from the same quality and brand as the speakers cables you use and if the speaker cables you use have enough wire gage to not limit current flow.
So int his case , just replace the straps with WW same model as you already have. |
Best results will be obtained using a set of WireWorld top of the line jumper cables. If possible unterminated, if ww can make them so.
I don’t care if the Plinius amp has one pair, two pairs, or 32 pairs of terminals behind, it all come from the same bus bar inside the amplifier...they are connected.
And one pair of those top of the line WW speaker cables should have enough cross section to handle all the current the Plinius can give and much more.
So it’s not a matter of believing or not believing in this case. It’s the same signal path done differently. So no need to double the WW costly sota speaker cables.
Bi amping is another thing completely, doubling the power with one amp fornthe highs and one amp for the lows. This can make a difference I agree. |
The Pacific is in a higher league, it should be much better at driving power amps.
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I doubt WC will buy another set of those top of the line Wireworld speaker cables, just to try bi-wiring. Costly bet considering he is still in test mode with the Neoliths and much likely the Plinius amp will not be the last ( and chosen one ) to drive them. Better bet is to go with WW top of the line matching jumpers.
And it would not make sense to add inferior or different model set to the sota one he already owns.
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Only thing that will be prooven is that using the stock jumpers is inferior to bi wiring, wich is just plain normal and not disputed.
Removing the stock jumpers from the equation is the first thing I would have done receiving the Neoliths... I would have chosen between next 2 options. First is shotgun configuration speaker cables, second is state of the art jumpers.
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That’s just me, but I could not stand having two different sets of cables plugged into my 80k speakers terminals. It’s just not the right and clean way to do it.
Transition mode I understand, but please at this level of gear give the buyer some optimality ( a fully finished product)... If I buy a 50k diamond ring to my wife, I want it to be perfect...not a to be perfected diamond ring...
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I would sincerely expect Martin Logan to include state of the art jumper cables from WW or Nordost with a 80k flagship pair of speakers. Not solid straps.
For example, Verity Audio uses Nordost Valhalla cable throughout their top gun transducers. Talk about a fully finished product that respects the customer and his deep wallet...
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I do prefer an upfront reveling presentation. Full , quick and powerful , no veiling, no brightness but clear highs. Real , forceful and organic.
Who wants a laidback veiled sound. Who wants sota 80k speakers that needs so much tweeking to sound optimal... Original strap jumpers, not doing it. 45k brute force DAG integrated, not doing it. Next is calling a priest to bless the panel. Maybe even the holy spirit can’t make those sing. |
Imho, from what we read so far about the Neos, they should 20k not 80k....
Not saying it’s a bad product, just saying they have unacceptable flaws at their price point. So is Dag. |
It seems only Viber and I understand common sense these days...
Some people have the truth in front of them but just live in denial, because of prestige brand names most of the time. They forget it’s only electronics and plain science inside those shiny costly boxes...
Common sense:
- The Neos come with rolled off HF.
- The Neos have unacceptable cheap straps for jumpers.
- Dag integrated and amps are somewhat rolled off and overrated.
- It’s about synergy, not price tags.
- I have seen millionaires on youtube destroy their brand new 150k car because of less trouble the Neos flagship panels are giving WC...
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Blocked audio... Just like the Dag, it is blocked to the mids.
( that was for the Rane laughting squad).
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There is a reason why most users on whats best forum own Magico or Wilson top guns, and nobody or very few own the Neoliths. Less flaws, complete, fully elite products.
Same reason why Shunyata power cables and conditioners are also the most used on their flagship systems. They are the best , and still reasonably priced. |
roxy, you are bored because WC sold his Magico. The Neos are rolled off and not as exciting 😅
Riaa should not have the right to respond to Viber. Imho the less respectful user on this thread.
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Good, it seems the new amps are slowly deblocking 😙
( I guess I feel I’m part of the bad joke gang against Viber ´s truthful common sense. I can t stand the raaanne ,wow I feel so smart... I might just buy the Dag overpriced integrated even if it doesn’t stand a chance against my Lux 900u)
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mrdecibel is an audio consultant, it explains everything and why Viber s posts on common sense about overpriced gear is getting to him so much. He is biased and will always be biased, so we’ll take his advice with a big grain of salt from now on. I ´m with the doc, and many more are, he is not in the audio buisness and has objective thought about pricey gear. Sure this hurts the ego of owners of Dag or other big buck shiny electronics. As they say, the truth always hurt.
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Happy for you, sure it’s a cool serious system you got there.
Though you would not need to blow out so much time and money figuring out amps if you got Alexia 2 or Magico M6. I bet you will not own the Neoliths anymore , before date of today 2019. Any amp won’t make them as exciting as whats best outthere in dynamics speakers...you will be bored sooner than later with that polite type of sound.
Sure, the journey will be fun though. I know it’s still great time to come. |
Still, Neoliths buyers are pretty rare. Elites seems to go with other options, and it is not because they can’t afford them... In the end, market never lies.
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riced1, maybe you are right about the prestige and pride attached to some brands.
WC, wait till you try Shunyata NR powercords on your Block Audio amps. What the Alpha NR does on my 900u is spooky impressive. Like every qualities are on steroids..
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MrDb, if that’s true , my respond is it’s about time Audioquest does sometin power wise that does compete with Shunyata...
The only cable I would buy drom AQ is their USB Diamond digital cable. They ´ve been up there with the best since the pc digital/dac révolution.
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WC, just get the dawn Shunyata NR powercords and be done with it. They set the benchmark in the industry. Why take my word for it ? Well you want us to take your word on the Neoliths being the best electrostatics so that they justify the increased premium over the 15A. Neo followers and believers seems to agree with you and acknowledge it’s the best out there. So I guess they won’t have any problem with that post saying Shunyata pc set, just as the Neoliths, the audio benchmark in their own field... Oh no maybe those are just not expensive enough for them to be taken seriously 😗😗... |
WC, you’ve got to put the NR on your DAC FIRST. Always dac and preamp first, because what is lost there cannot be reinstated later in your monoblocks .(down the chain)
The NR powercords will help you squeeze out the last bit of clarity, micro details, low noise floor and dynamics from your system. They will not flip it upside down.
Also, Shunyata pcs always take a couple of days to settle down. It is the Zitron circuit operating slowly to its full capacity, it takes time to charge up the dielectric around the conductors. (This is done by passing current into a conducting shield around the dielectric). |
It is imperative that you put one NR on the DAC , before playing around on the rest of your gear. It is there that everything starts. Your Esoteric source deserves a at least an Alpha NR on it, best is another Sigma.
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WC , I would make the YG Sonja 1.3 deal. Endgame dynamics speaker. State of the art aluminum casings. Lighting fast precise mids and highs. But thats just me. |
WC, reality is you are not hearing more layers of bass because the Block Audio are much better amps than the Rowland, or Luxman . But because they are very high current and have a very high damping factor. Truth is you could get the same control over the Neo woofers with class D 1000W rms Ice modules or H Core. Ok maybe you would not get that class A purity and sweetness on top, but you could get that back in the preamp by swapping the Ref 10 tubes ( just one example).
Truh is your choice of very demanding speakers limits your choices of amps. You need superhuman class A amps , that are complex in build and earth shattering costly... You could never know what is the purest, more transparent, more resolute, more nuanced amp out there that can beat the Lux or Rowlands on midrange , just because the Neos don’t allow you to do so ...as they need so much current and control only a handfull of monsters like the Block Audio will wake them up enough to your liking. ( as you are listening at very high spl)
Lesser demanding speakers powerwise = a lot more power amp choices = lower power purest design amps possible.
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Dacs are the most overpriced audio pieces, with cables. It is very common to equal or beat a much pricier dac with another one. I have also experienced this.
We know the Lux 900us can compete with gear at double the price, so I’m not surprised at all at the sota sound your re getting out of the do8u.
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I know it’s an amp thread, but I sincerely believe at the point you are in your journey there is nothing more to learn out there than can outshine the Block Audio setup you have. MF, Gryphon, Jeff Rowland, name it, at that level the differences are mininal...you have already experienced 99.9 % amp wise...
Much more could be learn elsewhere. Cables and tweaks, room treatment, SPEAKERS again YES, should bring you more new knowledge... Much more potential of new experience.
But it’s your journey and money. If you like to circle around amps again and again, fine. But remember each day of life is precious time and it goes lightning fast. Invest time where best discovery potential counts , this is probably the best advice I will have gave you here. |
The Esoteric was a mistake buy from the start, imho much overpriced. Someone can get the same performance for half the bacon...
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Wasn’t really serious. Sarcasm it was, second degree.
It seems it tickled you some bit somewhere though... This is a bit awkward.
My car dealer has been calling me his friend since 20 years now. He sends me good wish cards on my birthday each year.
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I confirm I was not serious. I understand you have good relationships with long time close buyers and some dealers. It’s all fine. The gear is great at a great price, everybody wins. As readers, we choose to come here , and to have faith in your reviews with its pros and cons.
Please don’t see me as an antagonist. But instead... lets say (and I know it s a funny example ) as a first officer who s duty is to remind the captain of alternative paths to the mission. 🤔😅
Ok I give you I like to play antagonistic a little bit. Brings spice and divergence to grow upon in the longrun. |
Yes, it’s alll clear now, he is a dealer. He buys as low as it can be, resales only reputable resalable gear that is being promoted free on this thread. Genius stuff when you think about it, no marketing fees, a lot of followers as potential buyers...
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Will never own Lapizator. It’s the name, just can’t take it seriously.
Returning to watch my favorite movie ever, The Grinch stole Christmas. |
Come on grey9, I am not serious but not at all.
Second sentence should have been a clue to my seriousness. Second clue , did on purpose spell the name wrongly...not to do prejudice to the real brand name. |
If someone can improve 10 times the performance of the Dave dac with an add on filter, it is a sign that the Dave is not state of the art to begin with... or just already outdated. I will wait for the Dave 2 which will incorporate this new thing they sale for 5k.
The think that has always made Chord a digital leader ( and my admiration) is the fact that their top gun dacs were always fully digital input optimized in one piece of gear...I’ m out if they start to go DCS multi boxes.
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Merry Christmas to all.
( where can I see the pics of the Neoliths ?)
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WC’s latest experience with tubes is why I don’t care for them in my gear. Too much under performing possibilities. You never know when you have a partially bad one... This not my definition of ultra high end. For me , sota should be key in hand and no worries.
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Cavernous soundstage can be achieved without tubes.
It’s the coloring and sweetness that makes them special, just as vinyl. I could also fall for it, I know it can be intoxicating. Maybe I’ll borrow and try an ARC Ref 6 from my dealer sometime in the near future. |
You don’t think the Ref6 coupled to the Lux 900u would give me a good hint at what ARC is doing well with the Ref10 ? |
My advice for 2019 is for WC’s future buyers.
Bid lower than normal resale value and be patient. WC has most probably paid much less than the asking price. I realized this when I offered him my Lux 900u at much lower than what they usually pop on AG or Canuck, and I was astonished by his response ...He could get one for much lower than my offer.., with his audio relationships. That’s when I knew this thread was about sota amps and speakers , and also some bit about getting reputable brands at bargain price. ( to be able to move them quick and most probably make a profit).
Happy new year to everyone.
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Remember guys, on a pair of 30k msrp speakers, around 35% is markup that goes to the dealer. The makers is left with around 18k, so my guess is most probably 10k is what the makers is doing in profit...the speakers should cost the makers around 8k to build or even less...
My point is if a dealer wants to get rid of a pair of speakers , he can sell it at cost price to WC. Or maybe less sometimes, if the brand wants to get exposure. My guess is the Block Audio Czech brand sold him the monos at less than 50% msrp. The maker is not loosing money, he could even go to 30% msrp just to get the thread talk about the amps... Marketing has changed with internet, and now forums are getting more and more a way to promote the gear. Think about it, it s all clear now.
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The new APL DSD-SR is said to be a MSB killer.
The DSD-MR ( top of the line with tubes) is said to be the closest dac to analog vinyl available.
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I already know what will be written...
Midrange is so enchanting, so meaty , so organic. So 3D. Makes me think of the Mac 2301s... music has soul, music brings emotions...
Effect of tubes coloration in the chain. Something near can be achieved with an excellent vinyl rig.
viber, if it beats the Ref10 , it will be funny. If it don’t , its just WC married to this sota preamplifier.
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He doesnt change fuses. He wont change tubes. I kind of agree with him about testing and comparing the gear stock without upgrades...for objective comparaison ´s sake...
What I find unfortunate is that this thread used to be about what amp betters what amp. Now it is all politics...it’s all about synergy. That ´s whats happen when you become victim of your own popularity. Relations, dealers, resalers and contacts don’t want the readers to know the raw truth about how their products compares with the rest...because many of them are just priced too high... Someone then don’t want to offend relations...which is just normal when you think of it.
So , if the Lampi gets destroyed by the Lux or Esoteric, we shall never really know. What we will know instead is that it is not synergistic with the rest of the system because of bla bla bla...
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I am guessing it takes him a little time to adjust to the new sound and compare with the Ref10.
Richer, fuller, 3d midrange, magical midrange, dense midrange, dense highs you can touch...is what we should get as impressions of the Lampi because of its tubes coloration.
maybe it just sucks and he is already planning returning the unit. Sometimes no review is what happens when someone does not want to offend the relation who sent an under performing piece of gear...
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My feeling is the Lampi is back in the box, ready to ship back. Your silence maybe point to that direction.
Just a feeling. This is what I do when I evaluate gear and I’m pretty sure l am not keeping it. |
Lampi wify. Lampi lampi . Seriously ? |
WC is getting lampizoided.
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