Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

@dbb  I don't believe those two attributes need be contradictory. A pre can be both more transparent and engaging and musical together. A more transparent pre mated with engaging and musical system would provide more insight into those attributes vs less transparent pre. The Serene does look like nice pre based on that review.

My own experience with long term pursuit of ever increasing levels of transparency/resolution is that vast majority of recording sound more real, like flesh and blood performers. Fundamental issue that needs to be addressed is timbre, tonality, get that part right with analog section of system first, than you can pursue greater resolution/transparency via source components. With streaming jitter is the critical factor, timing is everything if seeking analog like sound qualities.

I listen to pretty much every genre and quality of recording, very rare I have to remove recording from library due to intolerable sound quality. Some think you have to color sound to get here, I beg to differ, the more natural sound one's system produces the wider variety of recordings one can listen to. I don't consider natural a coloration, I've had both romantic and analytical systems, those were colored systems. Both made certain recordings intolerable, you know you've hit the mark when pleasurable listening sessions don't require a culling of recordings based on sound quality.

@yyzsantabarbara I recall you mentioning 005 not working well with RAAL headphone amp. What is it about this pairing that you don't like, on paper it would seem good match, nice tubes and can run in various modes.

Ok, didn't realize RAAl had preamp section.

Wonder if this some technical issue, for instance impedance mismatch. Certainly doesn't sound like voicing issue as I can't imagine anyone describing 005 as too smooth and lifeless. On the other hand, I can imagine 005 being described  as  excessive in those two qualities.

I'd bet adding the Serene pre will improve things greatly, 005 really requires nice pre to reach potential. Fact is I'm still searching for full potential. I received my new ATX board based music server Friday, expecting JCAT Optimio S ATX Monday, should have close to Taiko Extreme performance music server with this setup. Expecting 005 to be perfectly at home in this company.

Thanks @melm  I do love my tube pre, Coincident Statement MkII, 101D dht, and I do believe tube pre's and tube amps for that matter, are great match for 005. My take on 005 is it really excels with just the slightest added bit of warmth, harmonic development only tubes can provide. Doesn't need more than a touch of that tube warmth so the more neutral, modern sound tube amps/pre's just right. Also, modern top flight tube equipment needs not give up anything to SS in terms of resolution/transparency. This especially true with balanced pre, noise floor lower with balanced circuits, cables.

As far as the Musical Fidelity pre, I purchased MF M2SI integrated some years ago in a different setup, thought it very nice musical piece. Hit above its weight against a much more expensive class A SS amp. I too am not impressed with Mac, middling sound for the cost.

Update on new server, have JCAT Optimo S ATX LPS in house after 2 weeks wait for shipping out of Poland. Have new setup running but haven't listened yet, Euphony OS and Stylus player steep learning curve, this thing has ability to run direct from RAM, lowest latency (jitter) possible vs SSD. This setup should really test 005 potential, a number of individuals built virtually same server (minus the Optimo LPS) after having gone through previous lesser custom build servers over the years. Each considered this was best custom server they could build. Each of these individuals purchased Taiko Extreme server directly after this particular build, $35k last time I looked.

@charles1dad We both did!

The SOTM is nice streamer at it's price, was surpassed in my setup by Sonore OpticalRendu, but then talking aprox twice the price. Both need nice linear power supply to perform optimally.

Now using custom build streamer, sound quality incredible! 005 compatible and not out of place with best streamers out there. This dac not only great value, but simply excellent at any price and in any system. I'd have to say 005 is both best value and objectively high performing component I've experienced in thirty years as audiophile.

@melm , @bill_k correct, I think most everything there. The one issue with custom build like this is the bespoke nature of the total build including power supply. Vast majority of this not applicable to most if not all members here. To try to put this build in some perspective, last comparison prior to original builder selling, preferred this  to Aurender W20SE, a subjective opinion, but there it is. This comparison at time when build was in earlier configuration, lesser processor and power supply much less quality than my JCAT Optimo. Original builder/owner only sold after comparing to Taiko Extreme, $35k, which he ended up purchasing.

So, based on this and a handful of other builders with similar or exact same build and their estimations of sound quality, this custom build right up there with best. If anyone interested, the long and winding road covering this build and others can be found at Audiophilestyle forum, one thread is 765 pages or so at last count, so pretty dense reading.

At this point, I have yet to try vast majority of possible combos of music players and end points, choices include all Roon, Roon with embedded HQPlayer, Roon with embedded Stylus EP (Euphony's proprietary music player), all HQPlayer with Roon endpoint, all Stylus, Stylus with Roon endpoint. Entire custom build runs on Euphony operating system, this is proprietary OS based off Linux running on Windows ATX motherboard, generally running at less than 1% of available processing power which means this operating system has only the most essential processes running, means low noise, higher resolution.

At this point I can only say the resolution of this setup is incredible! I've been experiencing sensation of live performers in room for a few years now, but the added detail of this streamer has heightened this sensation. The noise floor has dropped down to the extent I now hear the lowest level details, voices are just amazingly lifelike, the smallest inflections and breath now heard. And all performers and instruments are increasingly in their own place on soundstage, individualized to the extent of much more replicating what one hears at live performance. And then also much more relaxed, sense of ease, more analog like presentation, which tells me jitter level much lower. One of the major design principles of this streamer build was paying great attention to latency which results in much lower jitter. As mentioned above I have yet to try most combos of music players, saving optimal music player combo for last! Also, still not close to optimizing usb as I'm using motherboard usb vs. JCAT USB board I plan on purchasing.

As for how all this applicable to 005, none of this wonderful performance would be possible without it! I still hear no sins of commission or omission. 005 not suffering a single bit with being more exposed, sometimes components suffer with greater exposure, defects previously unheard become heard, 005 has only increasingly excelled.

The fact is I'm so entirely happy with my digital setup, I'm finished, not worrying about $3k dac not being expensive enough. I've now turned my attention to the vinyl setup, already have some items on order, going to be major undertaking to get this up to digital.

As with any highly resolving/transparent dac with excellent usb implementation usb cables will make substantial difference. Having said that I've not heard major differences with taping off power pins. I only continue doing it in order to cross all T's and dot all I's.

In regard to my new custom streamer, now have had a chance to get well acquainted with sound quality with various configurations, I have multiple choices with Roon, HQPlayer and Stylus proprietary music players. At this point favorite is new streamer acting as dedicated server going to Sonore OpticalModule (LPS power) to OpticalRendu (Uptone JS-2) to 005 usb. Just absolutely fabulous, more than marginal gains in resolving/transparency, but sense of ease, refinement is revelatory! My greatest doubt with 005 has long been just the slightest hint of an overbearing digital sound quality, I've long stated this sense as being neutral. With new streamer with it's extreme attention to lowest possible latency, jitter has been diminished such that 005 now sounds far more analog like than previous. I'm sure adding the OpticalModule with it's superior clocking and improved internal power supply vs. genric FMC has bearing on this as well.

Also, have been experimenting with footers for 005. Previously used stock, Herbies devices, Aurios. Recently tried Stillpoints Ultra SS both with and without Ultra bases. The Stillpoints with ultra feet overbearing, didn't care much for this, Stillpoints minus bases, wow, an already increased soundstage size and image dimensionality due to new steaming setup was further increased in both of these, also image stability much improved, images locked in to unbelievable degree. The Stillpoints also split the difference between soft and metal ball bearing footers in tonality/timbre. Soft footers always make sound soft for lack of better term, Aurios always supply much greater spaciousness, open qualities, extension in HF, tighter bass. Stillpoints kept all the good aspects of Aurios while providing much more natural tonality/timbre. Aurios can impart a hard or metallic sound quality, the Stillpoints eliminate this, more natural. Comparison of Aurios vs. Stillpoints done post new streamer.

With recent focus on footers, recollections of hanging past cd players from ceiling via fish line were reanimated. So I will experiment this weekend with hanging 005 via high capacity monofilament fish line from industrial modular shelf system base I picked up from Grainger. Shelf system has 7500lbs load capacity, legs can be filled with sand/lead shot/kitty litter, placing this on fireplace hearth which my system sits on. Hanging cd players and dacs from ceiling always impressive outcomes in past, best footer is no footer. We shall see how this works vs very nice Stillpoints solution.

Finally, since new streaming setup I've been on buying spree, nearly $30k in vinyl and general system upgrades, yet the $3k 005 remains! I could have purchased any number of well regarded dacs with these funds, yet I kept the 005, should speak volumes about my regard for 005. Based on tons of research the only replacement dac I desire is Playback Designs MPD8, FPGA dac from perhaps best digital designer on planet, unfortunately $24K and going up, too rich for me.

Here is another interesting dac I only recently discovered, may be another dac that hits way above it's weight. https://power-holdings-inc.com/Cen-Grand-DSDAC1-0-Deluxe-Model-DAC

Now we need some reviews. Always curious about Chinese dacs, some pretty nice ones out there. Assuming Chinese dacs offer great value, would expect big things at this price.

Thinking I might contact Arthur at Power Holdings for demo.

I haven't given up on any country's audio offerings, my system built with Asian, European and North American components. Seems South America missing in action with audio?

@westborn Congrats on purchase. Don't know if you believe you're burning in using in this manner, but you need to connect and send signal through via whatever input and outputs you're using for burn in.

Wyred4Sound SE version was on my short list of dacs at one point, same 9038 Sabre chip as 005 and Vishay Z foil resistors, never heard one.

I'd expect you'll still undergo some time with burn in on usb input, both power supply and clock on usb board need time.

I'm finding 005 resolving/transparency potential seemingly bottomless with my new setup, every listening session a revelatory experience with nearly 100 hours listening time, and some components still going through burn in transition.

I have ability to use a variety of music players and configurations with new streamer. I've tried both Roon and HQPlayer embedded within Roon with up and oversampling, HQPlayer far superior to Roon here. Thus far greatest resolution I've experienced has been HQPlayer  sending 32/768khz to 005, not sure I prefer to Roon doing minimal processing, no dsp. HQPlayer with dsp activated somehow sounds more artificial less analog like vs Roon with no dsp, still experimenting so haven't made final decision. By the way, for anyone using dsp, 32bit is correct setting for ESS Sabre chips.

@americanspirit  I was arguing this very thing with some poster here claiming usb sucks. 005 does have everything needed for top tier usb rendering, the Amanero board is nice board, feed it top quality usb rendering via streamer for top tier sound.

Here you will find discussion of using HQPlayer with Sabre chip dacs, much more can be found at various forums and HQPlayer literature. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/26718-hqplayer-favorite-settings/page/2/

@melm I believe it was Lordmelton who tried the conversion? I also believe I recall him or whoever it was went back to using usb.

With recent thread about measurements and how they affect both digital and analog sound quality, ASR measurements of 005 were recalled. The SNR measurements relatively unimportant, but I feel the somewhat poor jitter measurements may be impacting 005 sound quality. If I have a single nit with 005 it would be the slightest tilt toward precision vs. forgiveness. With insertion of new streamer and it's microscopic attention to minimizing jitter I'm hearing much greater flow, relaxation, much more analog like presentation. It would be interesting to hear a 005 with improved jitter measurements, something the engineers could implement mid model. I suspect this 005 would retain all it's goodness while adding more analog like presentation.

@sirnui I went through a period of auditioning power conditioners a few years ago, Shunyata, PSAudio, Audience, some others forgetting at this point. I settled on transformer based solution, self modified BPT 3.5 Signature.

Power amps should go direct into wall, every single PC I tried diminished transients to some degree. I like your idea of the Giandel inverter, have been following the battery thread here. I did try battery pack power at one time for Auralic Vega dac, interesting results, went back to BPT for power. Higher quality inverter should help, I'll get around to it some day. Quality batteries would also be important if I end up trying it.

I also went through years of auditioning cabling of all types some years ago, power cables are easily most important.

Footers for the 005 also have fairly large impact on SQ, as they are for all components. I've gone no footer route with 005, no footer is best footer, more natural SQ vs stock, various Aurios, Finite Elemente, any soft footer, BDR cones, Stillpoints Ultra SS with and without UltraBases. Really amazing sound from my system at this point, 005 not going away any time soon.

@americanspirit Looks like contender, but what I'm really after is more diy solution. I want all components and parts to be top grade, audiophile grade, batteries alone over $500 for what I've been looking at. We have audiophile grade off the shelf already with this, http://s1000   Problem is I'm not spending $15k and up!

Sorry, that link doesn't work, lets try another, https://stromtank.us/

I had Shunyata Anaconda and Python in my system for years, still use a Python VX on lps for NAS.

Critical thing in consideration of inputs on dac is quality of rendering in streamer. The quality Amanero usb board in 005 absolutely requires the best quality rendering from streamer. Far too many usb ports on dedicated streamers come directly off motherboard, motherboard directly transfer any noise on them to that port. Optimized usb ports on streamers must be treated exactly like optimized ports like Amanero usb in005. This means having it's own dedicated board with power supply and femto or OXCO clock, even more optimization can be obtained if this board can be powered via external lps. You will only see this level of optimization with Taiko Extreme, Wadax level streamers, Aurender W20SE has next best optimization I've seen via off the shelf combo server/streamer or one computer setups. For me this rendering deficiency is the greatest liability of nearly all off the shelf streamers, a real shame they charge so much and then have this glaring mistake, charge me the extra $1-2K, but don't leave out a critical function! They do good job with minimizing noise, optimizing software and simplifying user interface, providing nice looking enclosure, but skimp here. Some understand what they're leaving out offering external lps and usb,  Innuos being but one example, others don't even have these options, ridiculous.

With my new streamer I have choice between the absolute best usb optimization via drop in PCIe card, in this case JCAT or Pink Faun usb cards, both include all the optimizations I listed above, and with the capability of being powered via external lps, no power off motherboard power supply.

The other option for optimized usb rendering is via dedicated streamers such as SOTM, the Holo mentioned above, Sonore, and others. The good dedicated streamers do all the optimizations listed above. and the SOTM and Sonore OpticalRendu I'm using at present which I've directly compared to usb out of my previous streamers and present new streamer, which has only somewhat optimized usb are far superior in sound quality.

So, bottom line, you are not hearing full potential with your 005 unless your taking equal care with usb out of streamer. This is not a small upgrade assuming your system is resolving/transparent enough! Get optimized rendering via usb and I guarantee you it will beat any other input on 005, to repeat Amanero board is optimal input with 005, designed to specifically use it. The I2S or other inputs may bypass certain functions within 005, but simpler doesn't always mean better. Also, ask yourself is bypassing this function within 005 really worth the effort of adding more complexity with whatever optimized I2S rendering device one is using. This was my calculation when I decided to not even bother trying I2S with my Singxer SU-6, reportedly one of best I2S renderers out there. Power supply and clock on Amanero board superior to that on SU-6. This became even more clear to me when I observed various experienced users having to modify these I2S devices to overcome sound quality limitations they heard.

@car123 The way you describe 005 is exactly  how I hear it, no softening or hiding anything, simply getting the real thing, more live sounding than any other digital I've ever heard in my system or any other system. I'd not even trade better jitter measurement if it took away any of this sense of liveliness. The greatest thing is the more I expose the 005 the better it gets, no hidden flaws with this dac.

As for battery power vs AC :PC. Symetrical sine waves are one thing nearly all these portable power supplies supply. how that is achieved is another. I and others have heard the liabilities of inferior inverters. I presume there is reason the Stromtanks so costly, superior sound quality vs other battery supplies is that reason. I'm sure there are various levels of sound quality vs various other battery supplies, my motivation isn't high to experiment at this point since I'm so enamored of present sound quality, remains in revelatory territory since new streamer and footer/isolation solutions. Towards that end, just added suspended solution for signal enclosure of Coincident Statement, power supply enclosure continues to use Aurios Pro to diy sandbox. Expect this to be another upgrade vs Stillpoints to maple cutting board sitting in diy sandbox coupled via amp stand to fireplace hearth which is sitting on suspended floor sitting on floor jacks.  All my suspended supports sit on this fireplace hearth. If this works out well, new Thoress phono stage will also be suspended. All  components are being compared to either Aurios or Stillpoints Ultra SS in diy sandboxes with either Birch ply or 1/2" aluminum top plates with integrated vibration planes in diy sandboxes. Already wrote off a multitude of other type footers used over the years, these two are last standing. Aurios can add hard edge, some state metallic sound, but damn things are spacious,open, transparent. Stillpoints keep most of the open, spacious, transparent sound, add greater stability to images within sound stage, mitigate the hard edge. No footers retain all the good things of both, no colorations of any kind, why I maintain no footer is best footer. So far I only maintain this for source components, other components may benefit from being mass loaded and anchored to something solid.

@debjit_g  Very interesting! I've not felt the need to even try the USB cards as I'm so enthralled with using new streamer as server only, Sonore OpticalModule and OR doing rendering duties, thus far beats several permutations via motherboard usb out. Thanks for the input!

Still, at some point my intention is to try one computer setup, there are some Euphony OS permutations that may allow for better SQ vs two computer setup.  Less complex setup may also provide for better SQ, in any case I have so many options to choose from with new streamer, have this need to explore all, just not motivated at present. I totally agree on network optimization and quality power supplies, optimal streaming requires all i's dotted and t's crossed!

@debjit_g I may try another motherboard at some point, one I'm using at present was chosen by original  streamer builder. He and the subsequent owner both compared to many off the shelf streamers, only the Taiko Extreme bested this custom build, both purchased the TE. Both compared when this custom build was using HDPlex internal SMPS and outboard LPS. Since I purchased added JCAT Optimo to power it, far superior to HDPlex and the outboard LPS they used.

The Euphony subscription model is kind of a bummer, but for just over $200 per year I don't need to screw around with diy OS. Convenience is nice and SQ is superb, never had V3, but V4 has many nice reviews.

The usb boards you mentioned are the ones I'd go for, no sense in going for less than best here.  I went with JCAT net xe board vs the lesser  JCAT net board, previous owner of streamer  had both available.

Powering OR and JCAT net card with Uptone JS2, choke based ps vs cap lps, sure that's not hurting OR and JCAT performance!

Sometime down the road I'll probably try out other boards, for now completely satisfied with SQ with custom build used as server only with the OR as Roon streamer via Sqeezelite adapter. Prefer over custom build streamer running Roon and embedded HQPlayer, custom build server duty only, HQPlayer Roon embed via OR, and custom build server only, Euphony Stylus via OR. Haven't even tried full Euphony Stylus on custom build, made a disaster of my local library on importing from NAS. Full Stylus via custom build using only Qobuz and Tidal libraries is fine interface, problem is I'm addicted to Roon interface and have too much good music in local library. Running full Stylus reportedly best SQ, have to experiment with this sooner than later.

@charles1dad Very interesting piece at that price coming from Netherlands, home of some of best digital designers, for instance Taiko, Farad. Good find!

@americanspirit  Either the Mano or Holo would be big upgrade over any PC. I've not tried the Holo, but expect it to be nice piece. The other option for those using PC's is to go to server/streamer combo, this gets rid of PC altogether. The PC will always be a weak link in system, regardless of dedicated streamer used.

Forgot, but Coincident pre now also suspended same setup as 005, effective here as well, only slightly less than 005 suspended. 300B amps now on Stillpoints vs Aurios, more improvement here. I'll add Stillpoints Ultra SS are nice footers for 005 if staying with footers, more natural presentation, transparency, resolution, sound staging and imaging all improved, much more engaging overall sound quality with the Stillpoints! Stillpoints on 3" maple block in birch ply sandbox was very, very nice.

@sirnui I don't doubt you're getting fine quality sound, but I still believe the usb input on 005 is optimal setup, only input galvanically isolated with dedicated power supply. Much depends on usb feeding it however, streamer needs to treat it with same care as 005 treats the input.

My experiment with suspending 005 is simply matching or exceeding my expectations! As I discovered years ago, the best footer is no footer. I've used stock, softer footers in Herbies form, BDR cones, Finite Elemente and Aurios ball bearing devices, Ceraballs, and Stillpoint Ultra SS both with and without Ultra footers. I've tried various boxes filled with sand, maple, birch ply and aluminum top plates for these sand boxes, also tried various pneumatic devices over the years. This over many years with various cd transports, players and dacs, and all other components. 005 specifically used with best standing footer which have been the ceramic ball devices such as Ceraballs and Stillpoints, metal ball bearings meaning Aurios, also forgot the Nobsound spring devices (actually pretty nice low cost option).

005 suspended via HD monofilament fish line is without a doubt least colored most natural sound, every last bit of residual hardness or digital sound is eliminated via suspending. SQ of my new streaming setup remains revelatory with over 100 hours listening time, and things are continuing to improve with Coincident Statement pre now suspended and burn in of Duelund Cast capacitors in 300B amp, couple new power cords and JCAT Optimo S ATX power supply for streamer and Sonore OpticalModule. More upgrades coming via Finisar enterprise level transceiver modules for OpticalModule and OpticalRendu, lower jitter vs stock modules.

006 continues to amaze me, only become more convinced I have no need to spend $20k plus on dac. I've never had this relatively long term satisfaction with any so called 'budget' component in over thirty years now involvement in high end audio, 005 is the REAL DEAL, not out of place with any system at any price.

Keep in mind @yyzsantabarbara  comparing $14k Lumin to $3k 005. Still, this interesting comparison as Lumin also uses 9038 Sabre chips.

Based on my comparisons to other dacs and allied with a variety of different components in my system I'd confirm 005 voicing as neutral to slightly cool side of neutral. For most listeners I'd think 005 would work best with slightly warm system, preamp being the critical component. I'm using with DHT Coincident tube pre. Save your dollars on dac and splurge on pre is best path with Musetec.

Musetec not just value dac, but dac that can be home in any system, regardless of cost. Until I see 005 completely over matched in comparison reviews I'll continue with Musetec.

@debjit_g I have Synergistic orange, purple is on radar.

Voicing is so subjective, dependent on system and/or personal preference. In any case 005 close enough to neutral, can't imagine anyone finding it highly colored.

@kishan Usb is optimal port on 005, so streamer with optimal usb rendering would be best on paper. You have very nice system, if funds allowed I'd pick Innuos Statement, Innuous specializes in usb. Other top flight streamers such as Aurender, Antipodes specialize more with Spdif, doesn't mean they'd not work well. At lower price point I'd likely consider Innuos Zenith with Phoenix usb.