Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

IMO, 004 requires mods. 004 is epitome of analytical dac, impressive resolution, not very musical, I would have to warm that thing up considerably. I had 004,005, Auralic Vega and Okto Dac8 stereo all in house concurrently, 004 least desirable.

@jjss49  That's impressive considering your chord stack, msb, Weiss. Obviously you hear 005 as I hear it, yet to find a single sin of commission. It's all balanced in a very nice way, can't think of a single thing I'd change. As more comparisons against much higher price dacs comes out, I only become more convinced any possible dac change/upgrade is of little concern. I continue with constant small changes/upgrades to streaming setup, greater resolving capabilities of system only make 005 shine all the more, not a single ugly has been exposed!

@daci  005 excels in all parameters, everything in balance. My system can hit very hard what with 104db, 15" woofer modified Klipschorns and 005, far better than previous Auralic Vega which was pretty stout in this area. Vega bass rounder, more resonant, which made it sound more bass heavy than 005. 005 has natural hard hitting, articulate bass in my setup, absolutely no complaints

And for those wondering about dsp volume control via software like Roon. It sucks compared to any of the three volume schemes listed above.

Very nice, optimizing everything and ensuring level playing field is critical in comparative evaluations

I use Coincident Statement linestage with 005, dual manual volume control via transformer (TVC). So, in order to not have to get up constantly and make fine volume adjustments via dual manual control I set Coincident volume at a level where I can make those fine volume adjustments via 005. I detect no bit loss, sound deterioration as long as I stay in upper 90% of full volume, ie. no more than -10db on 005.

No bit loss volume control is a limitation of 005 vs dacs like Aqua and Playback Design dacs with analog volume control or real linestage. Therefore, preamp/passive volume control can be considered critical and integral to fulfilling it's full potential. When considering this dac, one really needs to budget for high end volume control, perhaps then not exactly the price/performance game changer some may perceive it as. I've used 005 with a Musical Fidelity M2si integrated and Schitt Saga + passive and not quite the same amazing piece it is with Coincident linestage with all upgrades and mods I've done to it.

I think I've previously seen it. I'm really done with usb rendering upgrades at this point, OpticalRendu sound quality so amazing, no thought to any more upgrades here. I'd suggest you try the OR so we have comp to an optimized I2S setup.

@lordmelton  and others using I2S rather than usb. I continue to be intrigued with I2S only because possible theoretical advantages vs usb, this being I2S being native protocol for dacs.

I've been searching for servers with I2S, virtually non-existent, motherboards don't have it natively, only diy solutions. One could do atx board build and use Pink Faun I2S HDMI board, bet that's very nice, but requires diy or custom build by another.

So most are limited to DDC/streamer conversion, usb still in chain from server to ddc/streamer, thus, not true pure I2S connection from server processor to dac. Also, streamers with I2S out very limited choices, since streamers critical to sound quality, limited availability may mean these streamers not be up to the best quality usb streamers with their much greater availability and variability.  Also, no standardization of pin outs on I2S, so dip switches required for proper orientation, presume dip switches have some negative impact on sound quality. This possible downside could be alleviated with custom built I2S cable, so good there. The final possible downside is I2S clocking within dacs. Since its native protocol, perhaps no extra clocking needed, as used on good usb boards within dacs?

As some of you know, I had Singxer SU6, never tried, lack of motivation due to great usb sound quality, also considered some of the technical issues listed above, and others specific to my setup to be theoretical disadvantages vs usb.

So my issues with I2S in general, assuming there are in fact theoretical advantages for dacs with I2S inputs. One is no pure I2S available server to dac. Two, no standardization of !2S pin outs or connector type.  

Seems to me dac manufacturers should state which input best, I suspect they put greatest engineering efforts towards usb because its input they use in voicing dacs, I2s if included, only for convenience. If they also voiced with I2S, they should state whether superior or not. On the server end of things, manufacturers should devise a method for I2S rendering if there is understanding I2S superior to usb or spdif. Pink Faun manufactures what is likely the best I2S streamer/renderer available, but this is expansion card for atx motherboard only, Baetis only off the shelf atx I'm aware of, otherwise custom build.

I don't understand why rendering has to be so secretive, complicated and as yet, objectively optimized. We need dac and server manufacturers working together in optimizing streaming chains, until then we have to guess or rely on the rare direct equalized comparison, difficult to do. I'd love to do an atx/Pink Faun I2S comp to my present usb, would be nice to know 005 preferred port.

@debjit_g Very interesting. Assuming you have atx board, why don't you try Pink Faun I2S board to compare with Jcat usb?

Having mentioned many times throughout this thread my curiosity and assumption atx board servers may be SOTA, perhaps I should mention I do in fact have relatively high end diy custom atx motherboard computer in house. I built this five or six years ago, relatively high level AMD processor, liquid cooling, gamer motherboard, high end graphics, improved motherboard audio all in giant case. This was real exercise in excess, built for the fun of it. I've thought about converting to music server only duty from time to time, but power supply mods ($2-5K), cards themselves (each one $400-2.5K) and time and effort to install hardware, optimize software, OS may not be worth it for build that started as general service computer. The AMD processor may be overkill, no dsp for me, and faster processors make more noise, liquid cooling inferior to passive air for audio duty because of noise and power supply demands,  also, the motherboard isn't inherently best for music server duty. So, bottom line, I'd be able to try great rendering with Pink Faun and JCAT cards, but within context of less than SOTA atx build.

Hearing your less than satisfactory results using external DDC kind of confirms my  presumption Singxer SU6 would be inferior to my usb setup. This was initially confirmed to some extent by observation of some modifying the SU6 with external power supplies, this despite having supercap PS which Alan at Vinshine claimed didn't benefit from lps. I also saw further mods to, can't recall if it was voltage regulator, caps? All this confirmed inherent issues with even higher grade DDC, they need to be top grade to optimize I2S.

@melm I totally agree with you, between the engineering of that board, and sound quality, both initially, and continuing, I should have absolutely no motivation to even try the I2S scheme. But then would I really be an audiophile if I wasn't at least curious! And this the reason for all my atx server curiosity.

I suppose all my streaming upgrade plans are based on wanting to hear full resolving capabilities of 005. This damn dac just wants to lead me down this path where everything feeding it needs to be SOTA. I've never had a source like this prior to 005, prior vinyl and digital source resolving limitations have been exposed for perhaps last ten years or so by the rest of my system or systems.

I'm extremely leery about clocks after experience with the audiophile switch with OXCO clock, excessively precise sound staging and imaging, the very things clocks are supposed to improve. I assume my clocking is sufficient at the moment what with clocks in OpticalRendu and 005 usb board.

At this point, reducing noise is where my focus is, you'd think the better clock in audiophile switch I tried vs generic crap one in my router would have reduced jitter, resulting in better sound staging. My unique setup, no server rendering with server ethernet direct into streamer may have bearing on this.

I also have issue with external master clocks connected by cable. Ed Meitner of EMM fame claims its a joke, states all clocking should be done internally, closest to components, circuits it controls. IOW, all discrete clocking. I also understand the argument that a master clock ties everything together, still not sure how that works when you still have all these discrete clocks within the individual components.

I still see the Pink Faun, JCAT cards with atx boards as probable ultimate renderers. These board have great on board power supplies you connect to external lps, great clocks, optimized rendering with direct connection to dac, The best of these cards are likely superior to any external streamer at any price. .And with no need for separate streamers and attendant cabling,  RFI  rejection is theoretically superior.

The other great thing about an atx build is the versatility. You have choice of highest quality rendering via usb, I2S, spdif cards, and highest quality network porting via optimized ethernet or optical card. One can have it all in one single server. Between Pink Faun and JCAT you have two companies that understand streaming perhaps better than any other.

I totally agree.

The only reason I go off on tangents with this thread is because of the great potential of 005. In the context of streaming, full potential of 005 requires totally optimized streaming chain. With dacs used for streaming I perceive dacs as only parts of a whole, analogous to amp/speaker integration.

@debjit_g  I believe you're talking about atx board power supplies when you mention cost of ps for pf or jcat boards, Certainly these are pricey, JCAT Optimo would likely be my choice at around $5300. But the lps for individual boards can  vary greatly in price, can probably range from $100 to $1k or more for best.

@jjss49  Very nice comparison and interpretations!

While I don't have the experience of your comparison, I pretty much agree with your evaluation of 005. I certainly hear the relative forward sound stage, and that has always stayed consistent over many changes. The greatest depth increase was when I upgraded Coincident Statement linestage to MKII status and Amtrans dual selector switches. This is only upgrade that provided more depth, and that not dramatic increase, although easily noticeable. Based on my experience I'd believe depth could be improved on. Still don't recall, depth being any less vs Auralic Vega, LKS 004, Okto Dac8 which were all in house simultaneously.

I've never sensed a closed in sound to 005, but then I've not heard your particular comparison. Compared to same dacs above never noticed this. I can understand how relative lack of depth could be perceived as sounding closed in, although I hear fine sense of height in my system, very close to lifelike size images, voices generally at about 4' 6" H, this probably helps to provide a less closed in sound, I also use diffusers centered behind speakers so not too finely image outlines. I've found a large speaker like my Klipschorns help greatly in providing more life size images, Maggies do same. I'm also quite sure horns and the particular mods I've done to my Klipschorns (Volti mid horns and tweeters on dedicated baffle) are providing maximum openness.

I too agree that small increments of volume attenuation MAY not do harm to sound quality due to bit stripping. I constantly use 005 as fine volume control due to my Coincident having dual non remote volume selectors, not getting up and down constantly from listening chair for fine volume changes. The thing is I can never be sure on this front, generally our perceptions of sound change as volume changes, louder sounds better up to a point. I can only say splitting fine hairs here.

So, that leaves the other liability you heard vs Briscati, namely the slight digital signature of 005. This is the single aspect of 005 I've yet to come to final conclusion on. When first inserting 005 I found it pretty much dead neutral, over time and many incremental and more substantial upgrades I sometimes heard slight slides to analytical side. Finally came to end of nearly every single upgrade to system, so system static over perhaps last  75 hours or so, everything burned in and I'm adjusted to static state of system. So, over all these hours I've experienced far greater sense of analog sound previous to ANY digital I've heard previously (agree with slow filter vs fast).  Still, I do hear a slightest hint of what may be digital signature coming through on certain recordings, audiophile recordings have great sense of organic, natural sound, its with the lesser recordings I hear this sense. I'd likely not notice this without comparisons provided by my present vinyl setup and aural memory of multi 100K vinyl setups, so slight but its there. The question I'm still answering is this signature due to dac or rest of streaming setup. Your comparison to Briscati forces me to assign more blame to 005 vs the streaming setup. Now, I will say, my long evolving and continuing streaming upgrades have been helping greatly in providing more analog like sound, especially adding the OpticalRendu vs SOTM SMS200Neo. LPS, best power cords on every steaming component, all going through power conditioner, FMC PRIOR to server, all these upgrades have helped greatly here. And more streaming upgrades on way, so presume even greater analog signature coming.

Still, the question remains, all things being equal, is 005 the last word in providing sense of analog like sound, the ease and sense of luxury of analog at it's best? Comparison to Briscati makes it seem not. Generally, its thought jitter responsible for the digital sound signature, it could also be something inherent to Sabre chip, or something else? I'd agree this signature very subtle with 005, almost a non-factor, even with the admittance it exists for me. As I stated previously, only hear this with lesser recordings, and still easy to hear past as the holistic system presentation is entirely life like, performers in room experience. It seems many criticize lesser recordings far more than I, my listening sessions four to six hours with no fatigue, only tiring for bed time. Overall, I'd continue to judge 005 as natural, high resolving dac, this extremely small deviation from optimum not a serious liability. I'd also say I'm not at an end with possible improvements here, more streaming upgrades on the way, I fully expect greater analog, less digital presentation in future.

Forgot to add one point.

Ok,  being mindful of the increased analog like presentation I'm getting via continual streaming upgrades. The difference between Briscati and 005 could be due to SOLELY due to streaming chain differences. I'd expect Briscati streaming chain optimized as streamer integrated, so presume maximum optimization and voicing as integrated unit. 005 subject to far greater stream chain variability, The results could be as much about differences in  @jjss49  streaming chain vs. dacs as stand alone devices.

Keep in mind I also hear a slightly digital signature with 005, so it may be inherent to the unit.

@lordmelton  Really not comparing $11k to $3k here. Briscati or any other streaming dac may have better price/performance ratio than perceived at first glance. For instance, I have around $6k in streaming exclusive components, brings my actual cost of 005 up to around $9k in apples to apples Briscati comparison. Add in analog volume control which may be superior to lesser preamp and/or preclude the need to purchase one, in which case the Briscati could be seen as a screaming deal.

@jjss49 Hope I understand correctly volume control is analog based with Briscati, reason I mentioned possible replacement of preamp, of course, only for single source, that being streaming with Briscati.

@dbb 005 certainly has advantage in that initial expenditure much less, one can upgrade streaming as funds allow.

The important thing here is 005 place in dac hierarchy becoming clearer over time. I seems we are not in fact delusional, imagining sound quality that hits far above it's weight vs far more expensive dacs. Its enlightening to see these comparisons as they give us greater insight into areas of possible deficiency and/or excellence. However one determines it's price/performance value, a larger sampling of users  discovering it is one nice dac.

@lordmelton Totally agree on preamp front, I'd still use separate pre if I owned Briscati. Analog volume function on B would only be of value if one was lacking good quality pre.

@lordmelton @charles1dad I generally stay away from the word organic in describing sound quality, but understand it's meaning when others use it. I generally use natural or use 'performers in room' to convey this attribute. As for the 005 specifically, I find @lordmelton  description to be entirely correct in that it does have extreme level of resolution, transparency that exposes all of a recording. For me it fits the definition of 'performers in room', which also fits my definition of natural or organic. Now, if organic is to fit Charles defintion it may not conform to that level of naturalness. That level of natural may require a bit more warmth than 005 has to give, both @jjss49  and myself, and it seems @lordmelton  all agree the  005 pretty dead neutral, JJSS having heard a bit more of this nature with Briscati, my present conclusions, and L admittance in prior post. Yes, the 005 moves me emotionally and has this organic nature, just may not fully flush it out vs. some other dacs. No dac can be perfect, which means playing off set of compromises, 005 set of compromises is nearly perfect for me, may not for another. I fully expect someday I'll be replacing 005 with another dac, don't know when, but I'm quite certain dacs will continue to evolve towards both higher resolution and more natural timbre/organic/natural sound.

@melm  You are correct, we cannot know the quality of the built in streamer in B, but overall sound vs 005 can be determined. The issue for fair comparison is quality of the streamer used with 005, with so many variations available hard to compare fairly to any dac with built in streamer. We must take at face value the PARTICULAR comparisons available to us and make subjective evaluation. And this is where I'd balance the comparison in 005's favor. With non streaming dac we can pick and choose from myriad streaming choices, we have greater ability to flavor our sound in various ways. With presumed streaming innovations ahead of us we have opportunity for even greater performance in future. No doubt greater versatility with 005  vs Briscati, or any discrete streamer dac vs steaming dac.

With posters or reviewers I'm familiar with I generally understand the meaning of words used in describing sound qualities. I generally find organic and natural to be interchangeable, however, I do have issue with organic in that it can only be rightly applied to the human voice, otherwise humans are playing instruments that aren't organic.

Natural has it's own issues in what is natural supposed to  sound like with amplified instruments and vocals. Recording, sound reinforcement equipment has inherent sound qualities, add our likely totally unique set of audio equipment and natural has virtually no means to test it's validity. Natural timbre, which I use quite often, has same issue.

I sort of like the term analog like, but that presumes others hear or have heard analog audio reproduction. Also, quality of the analog one has heard may greatly color their perceptions, if one had only heard lower level analog, may perceive it as a negative.

My favorite and most usual term is 'performers in room', for me this takes many individual terms/words into account, a system that reproduces the sense of artists/performers in room is highest goal of audio reproduction, IMO.

Charles,

One other term I'd add for CSLS and DHT, SET amps in general. From the first moment I heard an SET amp IMMEDIATE was the one word that came to mind, and one I'd not used prior. DHT have unique sensation of transporting performers to you in a way I've not heard with any push pull or SS amps and pre's. I think this is combination of sound staging and extreme transparency of these most elemental circuits,  straight wire concept at work here, not much between you and signal. 005's extreme resolving abilities and micro dynamic performance really took things over the top!

Charles, I agree the exact words don't matter much, after this much time in audio, vast majority know what is meant.

As for CSLS, I wouldn't change a thing. My question is do these terms convey a color? Likely I see more requests for something called warmth when asking about component sound, makes me think many systems are colored, always trying to play one color against another. CSLS, and 005 for that matter don't play the color game, I've often stated 005 as sounding neutral, CSLS fits the bill as well. Neutral, organic, natural, they all convey a component not playing color game. Assemble a system from components with these properties, along with highly resolving, transparent, dynamic, and you'll hear live performers in room, illusion of real live flesh and blood in room. Ha, just occurred to me, I'm describing an ORGANIC presentation, perhaps using that word not so wrongheaded!

I'll also add, while these words are indeed semantics for a general audiophile audience, the more I examine the exact words in depth, and how they relate to how I hear sound, they can and do have different meanings. It can be really difficult to get across to others the exact experience of sound one feels when listening to their system, words can be so imprecise, and we can't always know other's interpretations of these words.

005 extreme resolving powers, transparency certainly maximally expose this immediacy factor. Improved micro dynamics were also heard immediately upon 005 insertion into system, great transformer, internal silver wiring and lots of storage capacity in power supply all contribute here.

I do like combo of silver and copper throughout system, about 50/50 at present. As system has progressed over the years increasing amount of  silver added. My 300B monoblocks use vast majority silver wire, including output transformers. I've found silver has both greater refinement and extension on top, copper added for fuller mids and bass, silver also helps with articulation in bass.  Silver plated copper also very nice in certain places.

I recall a time when I couldn't stand virtually any silver in previous systems, always added unwanted brightness in highs, thin mids and bass. How times change!

The only thing that gave me pause was Musetec reaction to poor ASR measurements, recall them stating Amir's measuring equipment superior to what they used in designing 005.

While I'm on board with listening as being superior to limited measurements in voicing components, it would be nice to know Musetec had superior measurement equipment in their lab. The question is; could the 005 have been even better had better measuring equipment been available?

Realize playing devil's advocate here, 005 is wonderful, not sure I'd change a thing. 

It certainly would be nice to actually hear audio products as they go through voicing phase by manufacturers, This would give us much better idea of how measurements correlate with various sound qualities.

@charles1dad I'm only posing this as interested spectator in observing designers as they voice audio components. Presumption is measurements and listening go hand in hand, design of circuits using individual component values in order to attain particular desired goals, these goals being specific measured values from that particular circuit. At this point designer places circuit into component and listens, depending on outcome of listening test, circuit modified via replacement of previous components and/or their values, or leave circuit as is. Point is, both measurements and listening go into final design.

What I'm interested in is, circuits designed to certain measured parameters, Would not more precise instrumentation possibly provide the means to uncover some  anomaly hiding below threshold of previous inferior instrumentation? Assuming it could,  it follows removing that anomaly would change sound quality.

Perhaps 005 could have measured better on bench AND maintained high quality sound with better instrumentation. I can't know if Musetec's own measurements when designing 005 left some anomaly uncovered or they intentionally designed with the knowledge it would measure exactly as it did for ASR.  If I were audio designer I'd like my equipment to both sound and measure well. Just on marketing and sales front, assuming one's product will be measured at some point, it would be good to cover oneself on measurements.

I'd also like to hear far more from audio manufacturers on this front. If measurements don't count for much, state this clearly on sales and marketing front. Otherwise many will assume manufacturer has been exposed and had something to hide. I've seen this very thing with 005, many will never take this dac seriously after ASR review. Many rate both specs and listening as important in making purchasing decisions.

Roon can be strange at times, especially with complex network. I had issue some weeks ago after a Roon upgrade, library looked normal, would start streams from both Tidal, Qobuz, and rips on NAS in normal manner, but then go though all tracks within seconds, no sound output. I couldn't locate to any one thing, just did reboots on everything, problem solved.  Reboots always go to solution for streaming or network issues IME.

Can't recall my exact settings with Roon, but I disable everything possible, less processing equals better sound quality.

@yyzsantabarbara  So I spoke with Andrew at SGC, states they continually receive promises of parts delivery, never delivered, so in process of redesigning OR and OM, who knows when these become available again. These supply chain issues are crazy these days! Think I'm going to go ahead and order Network Acoustics Muon ethernet filter in coming days, at least I can continue to experiment in front of server. I'll have to continue using generic FMC with OR post server.

As for Roon I prefer absolutely no dsp of any kind, no volume leveling, no track analysis, all Roon functions kept at absolute minimum sounds best in my setup.  I've thought about experimenting with HQPlayer, it gets far higher marks than Roon for dsp.

@rrboogie I'm biased in that I believe the preamp should be considered as  package with sources, ie. as important as the source itself. 005 potential such that it could benefit from cost no object pre's, I've used 005 straight thru, no pre, with Musical Fidelity M2si integrated, Schitt Saga + and my usual Coincident Statement. Each has pretty large impact on sound, Statement easily surpasses the others. I did prefer tube buffer with Saga +, my go to preference would likely always be tube pre with 005, what with it's neutral to slightly analytical inherent nature.  And my take is spend at least as much on pre as 005 itself, will pay off handsomely.

On usb cable front, tried many prior to AQ Diamond, after, figured why bother, high resolving, transparent, nice tonal qualities, whats not to like! If you have problems, its not the Diamond.

Leave in standby, no sense in putting hours on components with limited life spans.

I have no idea about running XLS and rca outs together, I did try using both outs on prior Auralic Vega, resulted in diminished  sound quality. Makes sense that even if possible, could result in diminished sound quality, analog output stage doing more work.

Some systems don't like silver, I used to get tipped up treble in some past systems. With present setup, love silver, probably half silver, the other half copper. Once you get balance right, silver has a refinement copper can never match, copper can GLARE, silver will never do this, may spotlight the highs, thin the mids and bass a bit. But once you get to a point where a system can use silver, you'll never go back to all copper, I've never experienced such a life like and analog like sound from digital until high content of silver in system and the 005, which by the way has relatively high content of silver.

So, AQ Diamond usb and AQ Vodka ethernet great for me, assume AQ Diamond ethernet would be a step up from the Vodka, at silly money. I've tried various all copper usb and ethernet, all less resolving than silver clad.

@lordmelton I have Furutech Flux 50 NCF which I use with my 845SET amp, never thought to use with 005. Have a feeling this would only make sound more analytical. Never had a thought 005 needed a lowered noise floor, incredible level of resolution I'm still mining points to pursuing lower noise floor with rest of system pays back with greatest dividend. The one thing I DON'T want to do with 005 is alter it's voicing in ANY way.

Still, it may be informative to try the Flux 50, I have tried a number of power cords, none have changed the voicing to significant degree.

Well, I can't help but have expectation bias with using Flux 50. Not only the damping properties @balja  speaks of, but this will be daisy chaining power conditioning. I already have the BPT 3.5 Sig. isolation transformer, not expecting good things adding the Flux 50. Expecting overly damped, analytical sound quality..

I've been experiencing the above deficiencies with cleansing of ethernet feeding server. I've now tried audiophile switch and generic FMC prior to server, much prefer router powered by lps direct feed to server. Last try will be Network Acoustics Muon.

Perhaps one can 'clean' things up too much, could be at some level just a bit of noise can be pleasing vs. the coloration these filters induce. Use of Flux 50 and Muon will provide more evidence in determining this true or not.

@steakster I only purchased the Flux 50 after purchase of Klipschorns, 104db sensitivity and high current transmitter tubes can make a bit of noise. Flux 50 was only filter or power conditioner  I ever tried with both my 845 SET amps that didn't negatively impact transients. The fact you did have issue just goes to show how utterly unique each setup is.  I've not tried daisy chaining it in front of BPT for the very reason I thought it may impact dynamics having to power entire system (exception of amps).

In spite of some negative experiences here, theoretically, a lower noise floor will provide greater resolution, and shouldn't have any downsides. So, unless the device induces some coloration, or device exposes some prior but not yet uncovered system coloration, all should be good.

I tried the Flux 50 last night, just completely sucked the life out of music. Flux 50 only on dac, this with often played cd rip.

Based on my negative experiences with three filtering devices over past year (RenoLabs Ultimate switch, generic FMC and Flux 50), I'm reconsidering ramifications of lowered noise floors. Theoretically, the Flux 50 should have lowered my noise floor, but it in fact raised it based on what I lost,  I should have heard more information rather than less. The level of transparency lost was very consequential, made all the difference between real performers in room vs. facsimile. The switch and FMC losses were more in realm of sound stage and imaging losses. Not sure these deficiencies related to colorations, I'm hearing it as actual information loss. Perhaps straight wire effect at work here, losses from the added complexity negates theoretical lower noise floor.

For those who Flux 50 works, presume there is correct amount of noise floor lowering for every system and component, Flux 50 works for me on 845SET. BPT 3.5 Sig. provides optimum for me on everything other than amps, nothing more, nothing less.

Whatever it is, I'm swiftly coming to an end on cleaning up streaming network, already at an end on system ac cleaning. Network Acoustics Muon filter will be last attempt at network cleaning.

Now on to something I've been thinking about posting for some time now, this in relation to 005 ultimate potential. Ever since purchase of 005 nearly three years ago now, I've been on determined path to hear full potential of 005, this through upgrades and mods totally devoted to maximizing resolution and transparency of system. I mostly let voicing take care of itself, if 005 had some major colorations they'd be discovered with greater system resolution and transparency, and I could adjust for minor colorations with incremental changes via resistors, capacitors, different  diy power cable wire. Well, I'm finally at virtual dead end of possible mods and upgrades within present system, and I can hardly believe my complete satisfaction with the level of audio reproduction I'm experiencing!  I really have no need to change a thing, nothing on the 'wish list'.

How all this pertains to 005 is that this level of performance couldn't  have been attained without it. I originally purchased 005 only as audition piece, one more dac in what was assumed to be long line of dac auditions. The 005 came shortly after auditions with 004, Okto DAC8 stereo, Mola Mola Tambaqui or Holo May KTE were to be next in line, and who knows from there. I assumed and was prepared to spend up to $20k on dac. And so, here I am, three years later, and 005 still in system and providing an amazing level of sound quality such that no replacement dac being contemplated.  At this point I'd confidently recommend this dac for any system, including cost no object, could easily be destination dac for many.  $3k may seem too cheap  for some, don't be fooled, match it with best preamp one can afford, you have extreme high end source.

@lordmelton I don't recall, but are you using power conditioning? The reason I ask is using multiple ac cleaning devices may have detrimental effect. It may also be possible more than one of these devices daisy chained may have positive effect, BPT provides all the cleaning I need. Paying attention to great whole house ground is likely the most important aspect of clean ac, this I did!

In more general theme, I've found over the years, less is often more with audio. When you get the fundamentals right, less of these add on devices needed.

Back to Furutech filter, first attempt at noise reduction with Furutech devices was IEC receptacle from these guys with filter built in, used this with my former Art Audio Carissa Signature 845SET amp to good effect. Wonder if that guy would fit in side 005?

Forgot, in line chassis fuse holder within 005 could also work, and likely be more transparent vs the IEC or screw in type holder.

@lordmelton Yeah, I do recall the Furutech  IEC I used with prior amp didn't have built in fuse holder. One could always add one of those separate screw in type fuse holder, but would require drilling hole in 005, junctioning wires off IEC to fuse holder, sort of big hassle.

You know it has been sort of difficult getting my head wrapped around a $3k dac being this good in an objective sense, Certainly its always been extremely good in a subjective sense, but vast majority of us buy into notion price has direct correlation to sound quality, and the vast majority of time, it does have that correlation. I'm sure we've all observed some proponents of some relatively low priced component that supposed to be giant killer, mostly turns out to be delusion. This leaves one cynical there will ever be component that meets above criteria. And so most assume giant killers don't exist and never will, all such components delusional conclusions arrived at by those who can't afford better. There has been a number of times during 005 ownership I've procured the funds to purchase much more expensive dac, but the damn 005 always got in the way by sounding so good, and having proved it's potential through previous upgrades. Result is those dac funds always going to other upgrades to try and determine 005 potential!

And contextually, we continue and hope to see future comparisons to much more expensive dacs, 005 seems to be holding it's own thus far. I'll also return to the value equation in that I see 005 as absolutely requiring top notch preamp to partner with. Suddenly, 005 price/value comparison comes more into focus. Still, I assume any dac without analog volume control will have same preamp need, so now I reevaluate price/value comparison yet again!

Thanks Charles.

My reasoning for 005 as being suitable for even highest echelon systems comes from the assumption I still haven't reached it's full resolving/transparency capabilities. Until I no longer hear improvements in this will continue with this assumption. So, in order to test this hypothesis I need to continue with upgrades, not going to happen with preamp, amps, speakers, and/or the individual parts and components within them (still experimenting with streaming setup).  I'm at destination here, since pleasure with listening experience unsurpassed and age dictates I don't want to build another system from scratch. More contextually, my present system is pretty high end, pretty well over $100k, which means 005 is already performing very well in high end environment, and likely to continue performing very well in an even higher end environment, at least I'm making that assumption.

So, we come to voicing, resolution/transparency is one issue, I'll presume many dacs perform at very high level here, likely even better with future innovations in digital (until we reach limits of 16/44 which has already far surpassed what people thought possible years ago). Assuming 005 in top hiearchy here, I assess 005 as having perfect voicing for highest end systems, I find it completely neutral, really sort of without voice. It is capable of portraying real live performers in room, I can't believe how many times I've felt the actual presence of these beings in my room, like a concert for one. And it does this with vast, vast majority of recordings I listen to, certainly a heightened sense with the best recordings.

And so, based on my experience 005 capable of bringing the illusion of live performers in room. Assuming this is intent of audiophile system building in general, a higher end system than mine should only heighten these aspects of 005 performance. Now, I'm not implying there aren't dacs with  equal or higher capabilities than 005,  just saying 005 is high end without typical price of what is considered high end. 

There are two things about 005 that will preclude it from being regarded as high end dac, THE PRICE and Chinese origin. Funny how audiophiles perceive value as a negative trait when it comes to audio components. And then the political connotations of Chinese products when in fact their own wherever sourced audio component chock full of Chinese parts.

@klh007 Looks pretty interesting. Based on my experience 005 best with active linestage, in my case tubes. My take is 005 likes what tubes add, don't believe I'd like any passive or ss pre with 005, as usual your system and tastes may differ from mine  Only passive I've used is Schitt Saga+.

Sure analog output stage has enough voltage to run passive, also provides a very nice flavor to delta sigma chips, which are generally thought of being rather analytical, sterile. It wasn't the flavor of Saga wasn't my cup of tea, rather mostly lacking in resolving/transparency area, had nice enough drive, just not up to my Coincident Statement pre, which has massive power supply for a pre. 005 deserves best pre one can afford, potential of this dac extremely high.

@klh007 I do like VAC, one of their amps was on short list of possible purchases some years ago, I expect  that would be nice combo with 005.

@debjit_g I've only used diy power cables based on  recipes @willywonka  has developed over the past few years. They're called Helix Image, the particular recipes I've been using are the best power cables I've either auditioned or owned. I'd like to think I'm fairly experienced with pc as I auditioned many over the years through lending library at Cable Company.

 My Helix provide unsurpassed transparency, resolution and dynamics very nice. My favorite recipe is built with VH Audio Airlock wire, number of runs depends on component its powering. The only other high end pc I have at present is VH Audio Airsine, also very nice, went with them at end of auditioning process. Other pc's I recall having good results with were Shunyata Anaconda, Purist Audio Design Dominus, top of line Synergistic, I'm sure there were others, can't bring them to mind at the moment.

As for connectors I like the better Furutechs, also Connex brand from Partsconnexion, I get these exact connectors cryo version from Chinese seller, really quite nice at much more affordable price.

@melm You are correct on Muon. Based on positive reviews from trusted sources want to try. To this point I've tried an audiophile switch and generic FMC in the exact position Muon will go (between router and server) without success. Prefer my router using lps plugged into BPT power conditioner with high end cable direct to server superior. In case of switch I had to add the switch itself plus an extra ethernet cable to server and NAS. In case of FMC, adding two FMC, two lps, optical cable, one ethernet cable, both lps plugged into BPT with high end power cables.

So, yes, adding these devices added to complexity of streaming, perhaps its all this added complexity that produced inferior sound. Straight wire concept at work here, simpler better? Muon will be less complex in that it's passive device, will be only adding one ethernet cable (which comes with Muon) to entire streaming setup.

Keep in mind, my entire streaming setup seems to be one in a million. I have both modem and router very close to my audio system, cable feed comes into my dedicated audio room. I have only 1M AQ Vodka from modem to router, 1.5M AQ Vodka router to server and NAS. No rendering with server, two ethernet ports on server, so one ethernet can go out directly to streamer(in my case FMC to OpticalRendu) no need to have switch. Now, I suspect it would be nice to replace router with audiophile switch, but I absolutely need wifi in house, router likely my weakest link, can't be helped. But then vast majority using router and switch, how many can go without router? Router remains in chain in vast majority of setups, I think many forget about this. My take is ROUTER CLOSE TO SERVER, better than any ROUTER PLUS AUDIOPHILE SWITCH streaming setup. Simpler is better, straight wire concept.

Not sure I've observed a wider variety of subjective reviews than from Dave. Lots of these out in field in wide variety of systems, still don't know what to make of this dac after all these years.

A dis by ASR may be considered a purchasing recommendation.

@jjss49 Very informative comparison, thank you!

While I don't have a comparison dac at present, I hear some of the qualities you mentioned in regard to 005.

My sound stage not deepest I've heard, some relatively recent upgrades, tweaks have helped, but I'd still say more forward than recessed sound stage. In my setup I'd not call it a liability, very satisfying layering, three dimensional images. Like close to stage perspective, but not  in your face.

I've experienced variable image specificity and outlines dependent on certain streaming components in my chain.

Again, thanks for the review, comparison to higher cost dac's are appreciated, I like to know what I may possibly be missing.

I believe both @jjss49, @lordmelton  honest in their appraisals. In my present setup I concur with some of the sound characteristics both have related. Per usual in audio, no absolute winners, wouldn't expect anything else.

One must always be mindful comparisons are always informed by much more than component under review. I read @jjss49  review as slight preference for Weiss, with specific sound qualities of both dacs explained within context of HIS setup. The specific sound qualities mentioned in post could sway any particular individual towards 005 depending on present voicing of audio system. I don't perceive this comparison as dis on 005.

@melm Absolutely true on sound stage perspective  issue.

I recently listened to system far more recessed sound stage than mine, far too many variables to determine cause. I can only say any single one of so many variables could affect sound stage to some extent, meaning, while @jjss49  did in fact hear this absolute difference in sound staging between the two dacs, changing any one particular variable or a combo of them could give one more preferred sound stage. IME 005 has pretty much spot on sound staging in my setup and for my taste. I like a bit more up front sound stage, my Klipschorns and SET amplification give me immediate, performers in room perspective, 005 heightens this sensation. I'm not into the performers in some other venue, studio perspective.

I've also experienced the leaner bass, greater clarity thing. Doesn't mean component with greater bass not as resolving or even more resolving than component with leaner bass. Possibility of changing out multi variables to attain leaner bass from component with excess bass, may turn out to have greater resolving capabilities than leaner bass component.

At this point in time, having now seen a number of 005 comparisons to other dacs, I've yet to be convinced 005 commits either sin of commission or omission. While I'm open to trying another dac, still waiting for a knock out punch. Which leaves me wondering, are we at this inflection point in dacs, where differences are mostly about small deviations in things like sound stage perspective, freq. response, tonality, etc? I'm waiting to see comparison where 005 clearly inferior in resolving, transparency.  Having yet to hear sins of commission in my setup, lack of analog like sound would be greatest sin here, I'm waiting to be convinced there are sins of omission, hope I'm not the one having to purchase the around $20k dac only to satisfy my curiosity.

+10 on comments from those attesting to valves ability to resolve/transparency with the best.

Over generalizations really have no place here, components with valves are widely variable, one can have romantic or analytical presentations, far too many permutations to make this valid comment. Conditional comments based on experience are appreciated, subjective comments presented as objective fact not.

Always comes down to a very simple question. Who is one trying to please, measuring bot or oneself?

I have Merlin VSM-MM as second speakers, I purchased based on a number of listening sessions at audio shows and speaking with Bobby. Yes, Bobby generally partnered with Ars Sonum, and I did find pairing alluring. Bobby chose this pairing based on his listening preferences, measurements played role in that he understood what was required of partnering amp. Virtually any solid state, push pull tube could adequately power the Merlins, Bobby chose Ars Sonum based on subjective listening tests.

And speaking of capacitors and ability to hear differences with this particular part exchange. Merlins originally came with Hovland caps in both speaker crossover and BAM, I was perhaps first to mod VSM with Duelund VSF caps. Result was far more natural timbre, greater transparency, resolving powers. I called Bobby with great enthusiasm for mod, Bobby not too happy with me, but could detect a fair amount of curiosity in regard to mod. And so, a few months later, Bobby comes out with new iteration of VMS with Duelund VSF caps!  Point of this is, some are very familiar with certain sound qualities of systems and/or components, small changes can be extremely salient with this level of familiarity. These are not differences you're going to hear in double blind tests or short term listening with just a few recordings. Long term listening with wide variety of recordings in static setup required to detect these differences.

Musetec used above method to arrive at final sound qualities of 005, designer and/or designers used their ears and sonic preferences in voicing this dac. Assume measurements sacrificed for particular sound qualities.

Lastly, I would hope every designer of quality audio components has at least one audio system, preferable a number of them to voice those components. And the quality of that system, and the sonic preferences of designer certainly play a great role in final voicing. When preferences of designer and listener align we have sympathetic match!

Measuring bots and I not sympathetic match!

So, I owned Auralic Vega, LKS004, Okto Dac8 stereo, Musetec 005, all in house, comparative listening sessions. Based on ASR reviews, Okto one of top measuring dacs, Musetec pretty lame. And yet I heard greater resolving capabilities with 005 vs Okto, based on their measurements shouldn't have been possible.

It may also be informative to have ASR measure LKS004, highly resolving without soul IMO. We could see if LKS/Musetec capable of producing good measuring dac, would lend credence to idea 005 purposely produced for sound vs measurements.

@americanspirit  Nothing to do with not trusting my sonic preferences or listening sense, more about sheer curiosity. Perhaps some day we'll have measurement protocol that more closely aligns with our listening senses.  This will require technical innovation from those with an open mind, I wouldn't mind seeing the objective and subjective come together, I maintain hope!

@batvac2 brings out unique qualities of high end audio, content of what we play is artistic, and the highest quality reproduction of that content is what we seek. We desire maximum engagement with the artist and his/her art. So the pursuit is inherently artistic, yet we have mitigating factors of technology, engineering, measurements. The subjective/objective conundrum remains constant.

We shouldn't fight with  competing dogmas, rather learn to live with the imperfectness of both. I'd hope we'd all admit our human senses and  measurement protocols far from perfect, room for improvement in both, just leave it at that.

Perceptions can become beliefs which in turn become truths.

The signal to noise ratios rather meaningless for dacs in general, far below analog portions of our setups. Jitter measurements do have bearing on what we hear, still relatively small variations in ASR measurements really don't have much real world impact since the rest of streaming network provides much greater variability of jitter.

It would be interesting to see Wadax measured at ASR, presume it would not be stand out in overall measurements. That's what gets me most about ASR, the relatively small variability of dac measurements tell you so little about how these dacs sound in real world setups, let alone how they sound relative to each other!

If one dislikes sound quality with AQ Diamond its due to some coloration elsewhere in system. AQ Diamond is probably the most forgiving of top echelon usb cables, this based on many comparative reviews I've observed over the years, and my personal experience. The added bonus of Diamond vs lower AQ models is increased transparency, resolution.

Get your timbre, tonality, harmonic development right, only then will higher resolving, transparent cables show their full capabilities. Towards that end, recent replacement of Audyn True Copper Max and Miflex KPCU coupling caps in 300B amps with Duelund CAST PIO tinned copper has provided both greater resolution, transparency, but more importantly more natural timbre. Harmonic development with these caps has really turned the corner, 005 is now moving into REAL SOUL territory!

Further major changes coming in form of near SOTA custom build music server, power supply and install of Euphony Stylus Version 4. This is not just music player, but full operating system for music servers. This will be tested along with Roon for best sound quality. I'm expecting these purchases in home by next week.

Above posts are good for voicing one's system. I also use my own voice in order to ascertain natural timbre, tonality of my system. I love to sing, sang in many choirs back in the day, so often sing within my dedicated listening room. Really belt it out with operatic voice, hearing live voice within one's own room is extremely enlightening.  Speaking, clapping, whistling, yelling can all be helpful as well, sometimes ugly sounds very telling, don't want to beautify the ugly. Used all the above in determining best use of acoustic treatments for my dedicated listening room, wide variety of music as well.

The one issue with using unamplified live music for voicing one's system is we then have to rely on aural memory. Not to say its not valid method, hearing a good amount of this over a lifetime certainly helps in training our sensory perceptions. Listening to live and reproduced  music over audio systems in analytical mode is a skill, practice improves this skill.  Just leaves out the insights gained from instant comparison to live voice  and/or sounds reproduced within our listening rooms.

As far as colorations within systems, I maintain my estimation of neutral voicing of 005, silver content of wiring doesn't upset in the least. In my setup silver only adds transparency, resolving capability, no brightness or spotlighting of highs, no thinning of mids and bass, in fact I'd say highs and mids sound most natural with the aprox. 50/50 copper/silver content I currently employ. Excessive copper can harden mids, close in highs to some extent, silver opens things back up, and adds delicacy and sophistication.

No to say, I'm unaware of downsides of sliver in some systems, I've had systems in past very sensitive to silver, spotlit highs, thinning of mids, bass, so understand not for everyone.

I'd just like everyone to understand 005 is not inherently allergic to silver, this dac is voiced wonderfully, while it may not be warm enough for every taste and system, it is not hifish sounding. 005 not scared of silver or even rhodium, capable of wonderful harmonic development with a variety of metals.