Thanks, @blindjim .
I removed the 2 vertical absorbion panels from the wall, and placed one panel centered between the speakers; this creates some reflection points. The soundstage now extends from the face of the speakers back to the wall. Very nice since it also provides a focused image.
I also placed a vertical panel on each side wall which adds a concert hall shape to the soundstage for classical music. I'll listen to this setup this week to see if works.
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lowrider57 OP > Any ideas how to experiment using diffusion before investing in real panels?
> lack of overall focus, e.g., string section is not defined
BLINDJIM > You have Gallos. Given any thought to repositioning or redirecting them?
I UNDERSTAND Diffu as anything that breaks up a solid plane of containment or possible immediate direct reflection. Ie., walls. In this area imagination rules.
Just on the A’gon pages over the past decades I’ve read about using bookshelfs with a stacato arrangement of objects, books etc., on the shelves. Curtains, or draperies as I’ve used to great effect myself. Plants. Bushy stringy things like Ficus, or Spider plants. DIY wind chime like affairs only more prolific, something like 60s drapes where various types and colors beads were strung together in many strands to ‘partially obscure the view into another room where a door had once been.
Some have used Egg containers cutting off the tops and using the pointed portions affixed onto some sort of backing materials. Cut, shape and paint to suit décor. Or not.
Silk screen affixed onto DIY frames showing various images. Inside folded chicken wire with cotton or cushion stuffing materials added.
I saw a ‘tree’ like thing which amounted to a stand, and several ‘limbs’ one could position this way or that which had ‘flags’ that slid along the limbs used for diffusion. It sold for something like $200 or $250 per pair. Coat hangers and socks are what I used to see if there was any shot at being beneficial. Results were not fully convincing. Maybe I need more socks. lol
There is no limit to what can be used. Or where.
Merely looking at what 3rd party Acoustic treatment makers are offering should give you many ideas. Perhaps ordering in some which have a trial period could be a better way to observe what’s being done and why.
Diffusion is all about braking up any chances for directly reflecting waves of sound, as I understand it all. Absorption does precisely that… absorbs. Different materials as I’ve alluded to absorb various areas of the bandwidth.
It may not needs be done fully across the entire width of a front wall either. For instance, panel like things. And why I took to the idea of drapes. I had a rod in place and could add what ever whenever and slide it all along wherever to see how the changes occurred. I was a little bummed to see exactly how many panels of drapes I was going to need. That got a bit ‘spensive. But it does look great too.
It also serves to hide a 116 diag screen which is a huge reflector.
I was so taken with this notion I believe the next step for me is to install rails or rods along the side walls so I can play with moving whatever, where ever.
It enables one to play with at what height a thing can be affixed. Otherwise, most all items will be floor standing or nailed to the walls which did not thrill me a lot.
I’m not too into ‘spackle’ and spot or fully repainting.
Simply searching here for diffusion or acoustic treatments ought to get you tons of ideas.
As for lack of individual focus… I’m guessing that was perhaps the recording itself. If not, something needs to be done on the front wall for sure, but now not merely absorption.
Usual hot spots to address acoustically are corners, first reflection points on side walls, and directly behind the speakers on the front wall. Above the speakrs is another spot but this depends on the height of the ceiling in relationship to the spkrs. a mirror shows the first point of side wall reflects, precisely. So addressing that is slam dunk easy.
A friend of mine makes or did make some prize winning room treatment which were at some shows in the recent past, CES, RMAF, if you want I can reach out to him and have him chime in here possibly… if you want. Some of his gear gets a bit pricey though so be advised. It also addresses bass control as I understand it.
I’m hearing some tubes with top names are being made now by someone other than the orig maker (s). I’d be cautious there. Your tube vendor is as important or more so, than the tubes you want to buy or think you need IMHO.
I’d be as paitient as I could and make incremental changes. Bit by bit.
Sounds like a lot but the end product will be greater than its parts and you’ll get an education for sure which will help others down the road.
Much luck.
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Some interesting findings today regarding soundstage. I listened to some symphonies without the absorbion panels centered between the speakers and experienced a massive soundstage recessed behind the speakers. Some fatal flaws though, such as lack of overall focus, e.g., string section is not defined, can't exactly pinpoint the oboe or a soloist.
But, I believe this shows that diffusion behind speakers may be effective.
Any ideas how to experiment using diffusion before investing in real panels?
And blindjim, I learned that the Green Label Amperex are late production tubes from the Mullard factory in Blackburn, UK. Might be interesting to hear these.
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well, would you be opposed to putting the LP now, behind the speakers? lol. just a thouhgt. sorry.
I think the orange and Green lable Amperexs were 60s – 70s iterations. Its been a while. Sorry I can’t be more specific.
Rolling tubes is like baking a well, something. It will change depending on what and how much of this or that goes into it or doesn’t go into it. No one can ever really tell what the final results will be until the results are finalized.
My inference on the CED EL34s was meant only to show some 34s do nothing to the geography of the SS, they just affect the sonics.
Elrod is a laid back PC. Or was….
Dampening the area about the LP seems the best tact, albeit, for a true living space, they’ll needs be ‘mobile’. Arranged when listening. Removed when not.
Whatever was about the speakers that did not change needs not be changed now. Possibly something needs be added and in that area, diffusion appears the best path in my EXP.
Albert Von S. told me once how to treat a room cheaply and how much of it to treat. He said 50 – 50. Absorption and diffusion. Season to taste.
One item can be both things. Albert treated an auditorium in my area and used cloth panels. Rugs. Long runners. Hanging them and spacing accordingly… accordingly to your preffs. Or in his case the needs of the room for conveying live music.
I’m never keen on killing or deadening the area about the speakers and prefer a livelier situation up there. Moving back, its different. Absorption sucks up tones. Diff absorption sucks up different tones at different levels. Maybe a pair of absorptive panels at first reflections vs one is now required. Or placing them higher off the floor onto the wall. Can’t say how big they would need to be either. Maybe pretty small. Dunno.
Only one way to find out.
This is pretty interesting IMO. I’d like what happened and not change anything… but that’s me.
Again, all the best….
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Thanks Kenny, speakers are toed-in, and I'll play with position some more. |
Thanks for your your input, @blindjim . All good suggestions.
Here's an update; I have some extra absorbtion panels that I built, so I tried various positioning behind the speakers and on side walls. The minimal approach is still the best for imaging, 2 panels only. I have a tapestry and wall hangings behind me for standing waves. As I stated before, it's a living room.
The Tung Sol did become less aggressive at about 200 hrs, but still a forward presentation. I replaced the Mullard NOS drivers with Brimar cv4003's and soundstage is now wider and deeper, (love them ). I think I can live with this.
Also tried Bugle Boy as input gain, but too much "sting" at the top. The Amperex Orange sound interesting, have never tried them.
As far as PC's, I have all Audience and one PS Audio which are all laid-back. Very happy with them.
I'll look into Orange tubes for preamp or amp input stage, and after next paycheck maybe different EL34s.
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I don't know anything about your setup and you may have already tried this, but if your speakers are toed-in just try turning them out slightly. Yo may not get the results you're looking for but it's free.
Kenny
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@lowrider5710
Looking for advise... I installed new Tung Sol EL34B's in my amp, burned them in, and they sound wonderful. The problem is the soundstage is now forward of the speakers. This has never happened with my system before, even with changes between SS amps, tube and SS preamps, cables. My system has always been laid-back with mid-concert hall seating; now I'm in the first row. Do to room size, I listen from 8 feet away in the near-field.
I would have offered burning in the new tubes was in order, but you say you did that already.
No other chages at all? Now its front row from mid hall.
Initially the thought was most tubes were old or well wron and new fresh ones provided what should have been all along except you said the situation continued even interjecting an SS amp, if I read it correctly. Though, SS amps have quite different dispositions with respect to listening perspectives.
It seems a pretty sure bet the new 34 tubes have rearranged your seating perspective. Or, something else was changed you’ve overlooked or forgotten. Isolation footers for ex.
I had one instance completely opposite of yours wherein I had a front third of hall to mid hall LP and a pair of 4-5 db more eff speakers rearranged it forward to a front row LP.
I changed EL34s to CED ‘winged C’ from JJs. No diff.
Then I changed some 12AT & 12AX to NOS RCAs. No diffs. Later another swap from those same NOS RCA 12AT7s & 12AX7s to Amperex bugle boys in my line stage next, LP remained the samebadnwidth was vastly improved dynamically with great bass improvement. Still a very close perspective of the performance and performers.
In a BAT VK5 line stage I saw Phillips, Telefunkens, and some but not all Amperex’s lay the SS further away from the LP. Installing Amperex PQ US 7308 white lables did edge it closer to the LP.
As I began to enjoy that wrap about the head at times presentation I became very OK with it.
Some pcs later on did migrate it away from my LP but I had been tainted and passed on those more ‘laid back’ sounding power cords as they came and went.
I would tend to agree some things could fix it… maybe. Different EL34s as everything migrated after they were inserted might revert it.
Perhaps too if something akin to Amperex 7308 Orange color only, not white or green, can be had somewhere in the preamp, then maybe that’s a fix. Although a 6DJ8 – 6922 replacement, maybe Amperex made 6SN7s. dunno. Their orange lables had a decidedly laid back presentation. No sonic issues though but subjectively a bit more polite akin to Levinson amps voicing.
70s models NOS Phillips came closest to the Amperex Oranges.
Never cared much for Tunsol input tubes, only 5881s.
Room treatments using absorption about the LP might reduce the ambient cues you are now more aware of since the new ELs arrived. Don’t think diffusion would do the same thing there. But then, maybe. Shouldn’t be too hard to lay up some soft squishy items beside and behind your LP. And or, some at reflection points, even above the speakers or just above and forward of them.
Diff EL 34s, diff Power cord, or room treatment rearranging. Perhaps all of it.
Very good luck. Hope it works out and you come back and state what it took to regain your listening preffs.
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@stevecham ,
yes, diffusion might be more effective. Don't know since I've never used any.
I'm in a living room, very well treated, and I have 2 DIY absorbion panels on the wall between the speakers. They've been very effective for focusing the image.
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lowrider,
You might experiment with absorption but recall that diffusion can be just as important to tune the room properly. I am a big fan of Auralex' products, both for diffusion and absorption |
I remember this English trick that placed the vocals behind the speakers. Back in the 70's some purposely recessed their mids in speakers a couple of dB to give the illusion of depth over their US competitors, even some Australian manufacturers used this trick. Trouble was it also sound dull and unexciting.
Cheers George
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Thanks, great idea. Yes, microdynamics are terrific and I'm hearing everything.
But still wondering if more/less absorbtion will make a difference. |
Gosh, I would be thrilled with those results if I were you. Have you checked your SPL at your typical volume settings? Maybe now you can turn it down a smidge and now adjust volume to bring the forward/back depth to where it used to be because now you have more microdynamics that you are concluding as "more forward." I've notice this too on my EL34 monblocks (also running Tung Sols) whenever I retube. Try turning up from silence while using only your ears and pay no attention to the actual volume setting. I'll bet you can achieve the same depth and you'll find it's at a lower setting. Let us know... |
